The Amazing drama continues on Facebook. Former Amazing Spider-Man writer J. Michael Straczyski has replied to Spider-Man Editor Steve Wacker’s reply. Here is the first part of the drama from Friday. Here is a the latest cut and paste. This first part is from JMS aimed at Wacker.
Stephen Wacker: nowhere in my post did I say word one about the current creative team. Nowhere in the post was there the sort of personal attack you engage in here. Nowhere do I characterize anyone or impugn their motives or integrity. I was simply passing along raw numbers, which you do not actually refute, you simply yell at me for posting them and call names and engage in other essentially churlish behavior. In regards to ducking out of controversy, I would like to know what that refers to as I have never stepped away from either controversy or sharing my opinion.
I have always made it very clear that when I came aboard ASM I brought Peter and MJ back together because I liked writing them as a married couple. I made equally clear that the decision to unmarry them and, in the same brushstroke, eliminate virtually every story I’d written during those eight years was an editorial mandate, not my choice. I would’ve been happy to continue writing them married until the sun went out. Marvel wanted to unmarry them. That’s your choice, and your right. At no point did I duck out of anything. If you think I did, back it up: what are you referring to?
I posted numbers. Nothing more or less. If those numbers are correct, and again you do nothing to say otherwise…then your reaction is simply mean-spirited diversion. If those numbers are not correct, provide what you consider to be accurate ones. I am more than happy to have them posted here.
In the course of this, I received a friendly, measured note from Dan Slott, who is a terrific writer, who asked if I had any problems with the current creative team. I’ll tell you what I told him: I have no problem with them/him whatsoever. Dan is a terrific writer and is doing great work. I happened to come across this chart, and passed it along. Beginning, middle and end of story.
At NO point did I engage in the kind of attacking, spiteful, mean-spirited characterization you did above. It’s unfortunate that one of Marvel’s editors comports himself in this fashion, but it happens.
If you choose to continue the conversation, please try to do so in a grown-up fashion, as did Dan Slott. You might find it a refreshing change.
Wacker then came back with a reply a little less snarky than the first.
Starting my weekend off right!
My mistake…Apparently when you wrote “Just saying’…’” you meant “Just sayin’…the books in good shape and I wish the team well.”
JMS, I don’t know you beyond a couple of brusque ‘hello’s, so I don’t have a lot of heat wrapped up in this “fight” as you seem to imagine. Certainly no one’s “yelling” or “calling you names” as you suggest. You posted something passive aggressive at best and it deserves a response. (I agree that I’m bad at passive aggressive, so that’s on me. Clarity is my curse.)
One thing we agree on here is that Dan Slott is a good guy who wants to do well. It was nice he reached out to a guy trying to make the argument the book was tanking. I don’t know that I would have reached out to you privately since A) I hardly know you and B) you posted this publicly.
At the bottom of it all, though, you’ve posted an absolutely incorrect chart that isn’t based on real numbers and leaves out many individual issues to make its “point”. The sales chart you posted is the fictional fantasy fantasy of a blogger who has a massive, medically enhanced hate for the comic and the people at Marvel. In the past has cracked about wanting to “punch Dan Slott in the face” among many other vile– and sometimes violent– remarks about everyone on the comic.
(He VIOLENTLY hates you too, for what it’s worth. And you’ve now fanned his flame something fierce.)
However, in the end, that’s just deranged—though impotent– fan cranking and moaning. More over the top than most, but we’re all used to that and deal with it regularly.
What’s more important is that, as I clearly said in the last post, his numbers are absolutely wrong, out of date and out of context.
You seem to somehow read that as me not refuting the numbers. Let me say it plainly then…I refute the numbers. I even REFUDIATE them. I even REFUDIUDIUDIUDIPUDIATE them. (You are better with words than me, so if there’s something stronger, please use it in the previous sentence.) Hope that clears it up.
Yes, individual sales are on average lower than when you wrote the book. That’s true. You are without a doubt one of the top writers in comics. Once again, I concede that point… so congrats on that. I’ve long said so in the comic and in interviews that we all knew sales were going to go down once a top writer in comics left (especially after such a controversial story like OMD).
So to come in to show off how sales have gone down after you left seems to be needlessly spiking the football after the other team has set up for the next kickoff. You already won the point.
(I will happily write JMS IS ONE OF THE TOP WRITERS IN COMICS on a fan at the next convention if you want. It is just that true!)
BUT…and it’s a big but… we’ve also published over 4 times as many issues of ASM as we would have otherwise in a market that has weakened considerably since you were writing Civil War tie-ins. Amazing Spider-Man is still consistently and safely among the industry’s top sellers.
Since you’ve left, my writers and artists have managed to create the highest selling single issue in 15 years (which was purposefully left off the chart you’re brandishing) and add over 40 collections to the Spider-Man backlist.
That’s important information. And it puts those fake sales numbers you’re crowing about in context.
When the former heavyweight champion writer of a book shows up chiding my book’s sales with a ridiculously unfactual, cartoonish chart it sends a message to everyone that the book is somehow doing worse than when you were on it. You can see some of the responses here for just how well that worked out for you. If you say, you didn’t mean it that way, that’s great.
However, if trying to show up the current people on the book WASN’T your intention, I can’t imagine what it was. Just sayin’…
You are correct that I do take it personally when other creators knock the work my team does on any of my books (except Daredevil…swing away there. Those guys are jerks.). I stand by the notion that posting a comic’s sales after you’ve left is a creepy thing to do.
Just as a mental test, try imagining if I did the obvious thing here and posted…say…current Superman and Wonder Woman sales now that you left the book.
That would be buttheaded of me. And I try not to be buttheaded.
I did love your ASM run, though (except the Gwen thing…ewww). Especially loved Doom at the airport and the way you wrote Pete and MJ as a couple. (I also thought it was cool that we used you in Thor. They didn’t use Slott in the Spidey musical…which I believe was a huge mistake!)
Scarlet Spider #1 on sale January 4!
Then former Amazing Spider-Man writer and current Daredevil writer Mark Waid got into the discussion. His opening sentence continued to fan the flame.
Dick move, Joe. Flat out, a dick move, and you know it. Either your point was to show people how awesome you were, or to show people how things have deteriorated since your absence. There’s no other way to interpret your post. None. Are you really that hard up for approbation and fan love that you can’t rise above that sort of shit? I understand Wacker’s frustration. Maybe he overreacted a bit, in the way good friends DO react when they perceive their friends and employees being attacked by a bitter man with a bottomless ego, but you made the first move, and it was a dick move. And if anyone doubted you were doing it for anything other than informational purposes, adding “Just sayin'” was the snarktacular icing on the cake. No one says “Just sayin'” unless they’re doing exactly the opposite of “Just sayin’>
Zach Joiner edit: Waid wasn’t quite done, as he had this final parting shot at JMS:
Half an hour Later, still fuming at JMS’ shitty passive agressiveness. I should go walk it off. Maybe a long walk. A long, dull,pointless, boring walk. Across America.
That I won’t Finish.
Needless to say, this goes without saying: Let’s not turn this into a flame war. Rules from Yesterday (and everyday for that matter) apply. Don’t insult the guys personally.
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@40 Jack Brooks –
Do you have a link to that? I can’t seem to find it and I never read it so I am very interested.
Thanks
Don’t forget that JMS wrote a fairly lengthy behind-the-scenes expose’ of what led into OMD. He clearly put a lot of work into his version of the plot, under the impression that Quesada had pre-approved it. JMS’ plot even included Mephisto, so we can’t treat him as innocent of what eventually became OMD. But his original story somehow involved Harry Osborne getting help for his drug addiction, which changed everything, including Gwen not dying! Then, JMS (allegedly) discovered that Quesada scuttled the whole thing, because JMS’ story structure nullified years of ASM story-lines; and all of Quesada’s editors strongly opposed resurrecting Gwen.
JMS’ posting of the ASM sales records was boastful, surely, and a put-down of the OMD/BND teams’ comparative commercial success, but that’s all it was. It wasn’t a personal attack on their IQs or work ethic. True to form, Steve Wacker made it worse, and further cemented the Marvel editorial team’s reputation as an immature frat.
While it’s true that those sales figure stats don’t include digital downloads or international sales, all Wacker ever needs to do would be to cite those stats….add them into the mix. He would be challenged as to their honesty, but at least citing them is an option for him. My guess as to why he doesn’t, and why he has never cited them even though that data is known to him, is because they somehow reveal a steady aales plummet dating from OMD — the same plummet shown by the magazine sale figures.
How long before Wacker shows up here to argue with people under an assumed name? I did think it was a bit egotistical for JMS to post the chart but Wacker’s reaction was classy as usual.
Saw it:
http://box-in-the-box.livejournal.com/540575.html
Hey, K-Box…
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/12/11/numbercrunching-spiderman-statistics/
@Sthenurus – It’d be a terrible thing if Facebook was censored like that.
I have no opinion on the matter. As someone who enjoys a good flame war, this deserves a Michael Jackson eating popcorn.jpg.
At least I can rest easily knowing even Wacker hates Sins Past.
You know what? As much as I’ve gotten into online brawls with him in the past, I will second Wheatcakes’ commendation of Dan Slott for acting like the only adult in the room in this whole affair.
The thing is, if Mr Wacker never bothered to say anything publicly, this likely would not have gotten nearly the attention it has. So, a big thumbs up from me to Mr. Slott for his lowkey approach to sharing whatever his opinion was with JMS. It’s none of our business.
You don’t think their is some bitterness left over from One More Day?
Ever hear of the writer’s strike? This is the comic writers war.
IMHO, Waid is right. Posting it on facebook was a dick move. It really looked like the guy needed an ego boost after the whole superman/wonder woman debacle. Wacker answer wasn’t the classiest, but he had every right to defend himself and his team. But the fact he wasn’t able to show any number to back up his words pretty much makes him look like an angry child that can’t take a comment. Finaly Waid surprised me. I didn’t know you could use word such as dick on facebook. Always tough they were banned or moderated or something. But I have to admit that his final post was an amazing burn. As an arrogant young adult I respect that.
Straczynski’s deleted everything.
Waid had the best answer… bar none… lol
So, have WE been blamed for this yet?
Who am I siding with here? Nobody. It’s no secret that I am a huge fan of JMS, but I would say the post was unintentionally boneheaded. I can see how it would come off as personal. That being said, Wacker made a mountain out of an anthill. He could have, and should have ignored it.
So, JMS made a mistake. But a small mistake.
Wacker should have kept his mouth shut, or at least contacted JMS in private if he really had to say something. That’s what Dan Slott did.
Mark Waid… wow.
I’m siding with Wacker for the first time here. I totally agree with Waid, that there is really only one way for JMS to have given those comments and they were out of place. Even if JMS’s numbers are accurate, his comments are not the kinda thing you “just say” on facebook. Maybe you “just say” them to a group of your friends or family or at a comic convention to other writers in friendly debate, but putting them out on FB was an unprofessional shot across the bow, IMO.
You know it’s deep shit when Dan Slott is the classiest party involved…
Slott has come across as the most professional, which is a bit of a surprise considering his history. As for Wacker, he’s good at trying to escape from explaining things but he can’t back up his comments to save his life. I found his comments about clarity funny considering that he resorts to insults and snark when he can’t hold an argument. He says that the sales figures are wrong but refuses back up his claim. As for Mark Waid, His response sounded like a someone trying to gain favor with a boss.
I don’t hold a high opinion of Mark Waid after some of his interviews while he was on OMD/BND. His comments didn’t help. Apparently manners and civility when dealing with differing opinions is not something Wacker, Waid, Slott, and Co. are very good at. Although to be fair in this particular situation, Slott has not really done anything…yet.
Zach: Mostly right. As I recall, they hovered between 90K to 100K, although they did take a nosedive to as low as 80K and even close to 70K during the later years, if I’m remembering right, but even that doesn’t make Marvel look especially good, because JMS’ lower sales tended, with a few notable exceptions, to correspond to those stories whose editorial mandates he disliked.
Whoa Mark Waid calm the fuck down. Mark came off as the bitter angry one while JMS and Wacker at least were able to give there points in a consist and orderly fashion.
JMS numbers were around 100k consistantly
You know since Marvel is owned by disney and disney is a public traded company shouldn’t marvels sales figures be public record? Or is that only for Investors? In which case anyone here own any stock in disney and wanna try to get the low down on this for us?
Brian: I’ve actually long considered doing so, because you’re right, it’s another very good data point to consider, but the benefit of including the Byrne-and-Mackie issues before JMS took over is that they were a much shorter set of issues, and when I think about doing the monotonous archive-trawling and HTML-crunching to create similar charts and graphs for the JMS run, which lasted YEARS longer than that, it kind of makes my eyes glaze over.
That being said, this is motivating me to maybe finally take up that cause.
@k-Box… do you have a chart for JMS’ sales figures as well? It doesn’t look like pre-JMS was that much greater than post-JMS according to the charts you provided so I’m interested to see what JMS’ estimated numbers were.
Notice that Wacker has not given any sales information on his end. That should tell you something.
Ack! The final link in my post (which presumably got put into moderation because of the two links it already has) should have been this one:
http://box-in-the-box.livejournal.com/523182.html
Two things about Wacker’s responses:
1. I love how it took him this long to figure out it was my chart, even though the word “KBox” was right there in the URL of the image. Steve’s not exactly revealing himself to be Mystery Machine gang material.
2. And OF COURSE, as soon as he knows it’s from me, he resorts to an ad hominem attack against me, which might have even succeeded at derailing the debate, if it hadn’t been for Waid’s “friendly fire” aimed at JMS.
Yeah, I’m wondering who sent JMS that chart myself.
Because if I’d sent him a chart, it would have been this one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/KBox/ASM_sales/ASM_sales_Jan_08_Oct_11.jpg
Oh, yeah, and also this one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/KBox/ASM_sales/ASM_ranks_Jan_08_Nov_11.jpg
Of course, I would have been much more likely to just send him this link:
Then again, who’s to say that he wasn’t doing some ego-Googling when he found it, since my Photobucket account is public?
@10: It was Waid
Wasn’t it Waid who claimed he was done with Super-hero comics or was that someone else?
I’d like to think that a company like Marvel would read what Wacker’s said and, regardless if whether they agree with it or not, have a sit down with him. A professional shouldn’t act like that.
My first thought when I read this was “Where do I find accurate sales figures for comics?” ’cause I’ve got no clue as to who might be right or wrong in this.
JMS: Arrogant attack, but not something unlike most people would do on a bad day… Guy has an ego and it doesn’t bother me, he did have some valid points.
Wacker: Overly Defensive of a friend, to the point of almost making himself a bad guy. However, that second reply was well handled. Had the most valid points, so kudos to him.
Waid: Speaking the honest truth, therefore making himself a target. His last reply made me laugh
Slott: Handled it the best out of all of them… It wasn’t public and it was kind words from what everyone is saying.
@#2
Somebody sent JMS the chart. I doubt he went looking for one. So whomever sent the chart to JMS either A) chose to send the chart that would look the best for JMS or B) didn’t look for the up to date chart.
But you are right this is silly.
*Obama back-up even. Though the variant must have helped.
My thoughts:
I love that Wacker couldn’t resist taking a shot at K-Box. I’m pleasantly surprised he didn’t find a way to drag the Crawlspace into this.
You gotta love when comic creator feuds spill out in public.
Of course, if Wacker hadn’t fired off the initial snark, nobody outside of JMS fans would have noticed.
Now it’ll get even more attention with Mark Waid getting involved.
Dan Slott handled this professionally, contacting JMS privately.
Something Wacker probably should have done, rather thantry and play ‘internet fireman’.
Wacker’s comment about producing the highest selling book in the past 15 years seems to be stretching just a bit, it was because of a huge publicity stunt it sold that many. Without the Obama variant it would have been the same numbers as any ASM issue was at the time. Apart from that his defence was well thought out and I laughed at the Sins Past jab, even if it wasn’t JMS’s fault.
Mark Waid, ugh, that depressed me.
And I can’t wait to see what K-Box’s comments are on what Wacker said about him.
Man, this is a rather silly. Obviously not the first time I’ve sided with Wacker but I gotta agree with him again. Though again, the manner in which he handled it may be a bit questionable. Slott reaching out personally was a bit classier. It was a completely passive aggressive move on JMS’ part and Wacker was right about him using that chart. How come that chart only goes up to the Shed issues? There has been a year and a half worth of comics that have come out since then. Where are those sales numbers? Where are the sales numbers before Brand New Day started? It’s not the smallest sample size, but it is still pretty small and not a complete comparison. And of course, no mention of the comic industry as a whole. Totally agree with the Mark Waid comment as well (although not sure I’d say a ‘dick move,’ maybe a ‘childish move’). There was no reason for the post unless he was trying to start something and make Marvel look like fools, which is not a classy thing to do at all. If JMS had such a problem with it, and thinks so much of himself, maybe he should have hung around and tried to make it work. Sure it was an editorial mandate, but it’s Marvel’s character and their decision. Maybe he forgot that they were paying him to tell their Spider-Man stories, a dream job most anybody would want, and that he isn’t the end all decision maker on Peter Parker’s life. Bad form on JMS’ part (and yes, Wackers a bit too), which is sad because I really respected JMS’ run, but now there’ll be a bad taste in my mouth.
I don’t think Mark Waid really has any room to call someone out for their personal behavior.