The sins of Norman Osborn are possessing Spider-Man … wait, now they’re possessing Norman … hold on, they’re possessing Spider-Man again (this is like watching a tennis match)! Ms. Marvel, Kraven and Rek-Rap continue to do nothing in this story! And the Green Goblin is gone … forever? (1) Get out your scorecards to keep track of which of Peter or Norman are evil on any given page, as this Spider-Man/Green Goblin story comes to an end! A satisfying one? Wait and see!
(Spidey was in this costume for what, one issue? And yet every issue since then has had him in this costume on the cover.)
CREDITS
Writer: Zeb Wells
Pencilers: Ed McGuinness
Inkers: Mark Farmer, Mark Morales, Wade Von Grawbadger & Ed McGuinness
Colorists: Marcio Menyz
Letterer: VC’s Joe Caramagna
PREVIOUSLY IN AMAZING SPIDER-MAN …
Norman continued to transfer all his wealth and businesses over to Peter Parker. The Auspicious Six(2) (Ms. Marvel, The Walking Brain, Curt Connors (with Doc Ock’s original tentacles), J. Jonah Jameson, Rek-Rap, and MVP Doug) showed up to stop Norman, and did nothing of any consequence … except for TWB causing itself to explode. Spider-Man combined the Spear of Destiny with the Winkler Device to create The Winkler Spear (TWS). He then showed up at Oscorp, the Green Goblin fled into the basement, and Spidey followed (along with TWB’s head). “Kraven” appeared and prevented the Auspicious Six from following them. Spidey stabbed the Goblin with TWS, but this caused the sins to leave the Goblin and enter Spider-Man!
SUMMARY
Spider-Man and the Green Goblin are in the sewers beneath Oscorp, but the sins of Norman Osborn have returned to Spidey, leaving Norman as his good self. The Sinful Spider-Man (SSM) gloats about his plan to transfer all of Norman’s assets to Peter.
Meanwhile, Ms. Marvel (wearing Doc Ock’s old tentacles) cannot open up the entrance that Spidey, the Goblin, and TWB’s head fled into last issue. Doctor Connors checks on Rek-Rap, still impaled by the Goblin glider, but unfortunately (for all of us), Rek-Rap is fine.
(The previous issue’s grade gets retroactively lowered by one letter because it made us think Rek-Rap might have died when that was never the case.)
“Kraven” is holding J. Jonah Jameson and Doug (because he considers them threats, I guess?) and tells Ms. Marvel that if she wants to open that entrance to find Spider-Man that she will have to face him.
SSM continues to monologue to Norman about how Peter’s heart is so pure and that Norman is obsessed with him because “he’s smarter than you”. Norman admits this by realizing that Peter created TWS as a means to contain the sins.
Ok, get ready for a bunch of acronyms …
Norman stabs SSM with TWS which removes the sins from Spidey and puts them into TWD part of TWS. This means that both Peter and Norman are good now, but Peter still has the brainwashing from TWD in him, which takes control, causing him to grab TWS and smash it against the wall, freeing the sins (which now look like a giant ghostly Goblin head, because why not?), which go back into Norman … without him being stabbed with TWS – they just fly straight at him, because why be consistent at this point?
The Green Goblin attacks Spidey, and unleashes the sins on him (again, no stabbing with TWS), resulting in good Norman and SSM, who monologues again about how he’s one signature away from owning everything Norman owns. But Norman picks up TWS and stabs SSM, which causes the sins to go back into Norman.
The Green Goblin punches Spidey, who is knocked over to where the head of TWB is. The Head (it makes no sense to call him TWB anymore) tells Spidey that the data inside him is all they need, and tells him to “take the sins” into himself. Spidey doesn’t trust the Head, but it tells him to “trust yourself”. So he does this – the sins leave the Green Goblin and re-enter Spidey.
(This is what the sins are asking at this point.)
As Spidey fights the sins, the Head transforms into a helmet and asks Norman for some help. He picks up the Head/Helmet and places it on Spidey’s head.
We switch to Spidey inside his mind, confronted by the sins, which are now a giant red ghostly Goblin with little heads on its shoulders.
(Yep, this is exactly what I want from a Spider-Man/Green Goblin fight.)
As the sins attack Spidey, in the real world Norman is afraid that the Helmet is killing Spidey, but the Helmet explains that the sins are about to learn the answer to the question it has always asked: “Who is Spider-Man?”
(I’m amazed that this pictorial explanation of who Spider-Man is actually contains Mary Jane, but of course it’s from OMD. Also, Morlun???)
This is too much for the sins, which Spider-Man is able to expel from him. They flee towards Norman, begging him to help them before they die, but they disappear into nothingness …. and this is how we are supposed to believe the long story of the Spider-Man/Green Goblin conflict finally ends, with Norman permanently good and the sins destroyed.
(I always knew that the character of the Green Goblin would end with a cloud of red smoke representing his evilness evaporating.)
Meanwhile on the surface, Ms. Marvel (oh yeah, she’s in this story, I forgot) has somehow defeated “Kraven”, with no help from Doctor Connors, Jonah or Doug(3).
(This is the sum total of these three characters’ contributions to this issue.)
Spidey (carrying the Helmet) and Norman appear, telling everyone that the Green Goblin is dead (they say this as Norman is wearing the Green Goblin outfit). Norman thanks everyone for saving him, and lets Rek-Rap (still alive) keep the glider that impaled him. Ms. Marvel and everyone else leaves, while Norman thanks Peter for saving him, adding that it would make him happy if the two of them could call themselves friends someday. Spidey says “Crazier things have happened.”(4)
(Hey, feeling upset about paying $4.99 for this issue? Just remember that one of the pages you paid for just contained this.)
THE END.
INITIAL RESPONSE
I hated this issue.
Zells, you had ONE JOB! Write an epic physical battle between Spider-Man and the Green Goblin to end this story you had been building up to for so long. Make all of the dozens of previous issues with “nice Norman” worth it by having him revert back to being evil again. And you couldn’t do that.
WHAT I LIKED
Well … we’re one issue closer to Zells’ final issue.
Seriously, that’s it. There’s literally nothing in this issue I liked. I’ve been able to find good things in bad issues before during this run, but not this time.
WHAT I DIDN’T LIKE
Let’s start with the credits page, which I rarely mention. The “Previously On” section has to bend over backwards to try to convince us of the ridiculousness of the retcons from the previous issues – about how Peter has never believed Norman was good and that he never trusted him, and he, Ms. Marvel, and TLB have been secretly working on a plan for months to take down Norman if he ever became evil again. All of this should have been in the actual issues, not in recap paragraphs – and fully explained to convince us (or at least try to) that this makes sense based on what we have read in previous issues. This reminds me of how during the Slott run you had to read his Twitter(6) account (or the letters page) to understand his plots because key story points were explained there instead of in the issues.
The sins of Norman Osborn being a tangible – and transferable – thing. I have mentioned in many previous reviews that I do not like this, and it was bad enough then but at least those issues didn’t make them the key point of this issue like this issue did. And suddenly the sins can be contained in TWD, which is a brain-washing machine and has nothing to do with containing metaphysical sins. Also, now the sins can move from person to person without the Spear – they can just fly from one person to another on a whim now? And they look like a giant red Goblin head?
Regarding the sins going from Spidey to the Goblin, back to Spidey, back to etc – eventually I just rolled my eyes at how many times this was happening on very few pages. It was ridiculous.
Peter is possessed by the sins of Norman Osborn, turning him into the Sinful Spider-Man… again. We literally already had this story recently, and it was much better than this.
Ms. Marvel, Jonah, Dr. Connors, Rek-Rap, and Doug do literally nothing in this issue. They could be removed and nothing of the Spidey/Goblin story would have changed.
Hey, remember when The Sinister Six were supposed to be a big part of this story? Zells sure did. I assume they are still unconscious in that sewer.
Even “Kraven”, who was a key part of the previous Sinful Spider-Man story, is wasted here. He does nothing, and gets defeated by Ms. Marvel, of all people.
(This has gotta be the low point for “Kraven”, right? Also, what “help” Ms. Marvel expect from the others? Are Doug and Jonah gonna take him down?)
The entire “Peter defeats the evil presence in his mind by exposing it to his soul/history” bit – ok Zells, we get it, you just watched the season 2 episode of The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon where Peter invites the symbiote into his mind, but he overcomes it because of the thoughts of all his friends/family.
The “death” of the sins, and therefore the “death” of the Green Goblin. First, does anyone believe this is permanent? Whatever future writer wants to bring back the Green Goblin will just say that the sins weren’t destroyed here and managed to find Norman and get inside him again (or hopefully they’ll just ignore all of this and have Norman just be evil).
Even with the sins gone from Peter, shouldn’t the brainwashing from TWD still be there? We literally see it take hold of him in this issue once the sins are out of him. I assume that the Helmet cured Peter of the brainwashing as well, but it would have been nice to tell us this.
So after all of these issues of Norman being a good person, we finally have a story where he becomes evil again and the Green Goblin returns, and it only lasts for ~5 issues and it ends with Norman back to being a good person again, seemingly permanently? The only good part of having to endure all of these “good Norman” issues was that we knew he would eventually go back to being evil. And Zells finally did that, but then he immediately undoes it and tells us “the evilness of Norman is dead forever, he’s now good from now on”. That’s what we’re supposed to believe?
Then at the end we have Peter being open to a friendship with Norman. What about the whole revelation in #50 that Peter never trusted Norman or believed that he was good, that he would never be friends with him? But now this ending tells us “Yeah, that could happen.” Wait, what?
That final “THE END” page. This was a waste of a page. It’s bad enough the book went from $3.99 to $4.99. Make every page a part of the story. Don’t waste our money with a page like this.
And since I started this section with the credits page, lets look at the letters page. This letter from Pedro spends multiple paragraphs complaining about the book, particularly its depiction of Mary Jane. And how does Nick Lowe respond? By completely ignoring 99% of the letter and only responding to Pedro’s invitation to the Philippines. At least try to gaslight us by saying that the majority of readers love the Zells run, or that most readers don’t care about the Spider-Marriage, or that MJ isn’t that important of a love interest.
WHAT THIS ISSUE/EVENT MEANT OVERALL
I assumed before I read this issue that I was going to be writing in this section that Norman was back to being evil again for the next writer to use the Goblin as they saw fit. Nope! We’re meant to believe that the evilness of Norman Osborn has been permanently destroyed, leaving Norman as a good person forever now. What a disappointing end.
I joked in previous reviews that if Zells ended this story with the sins permanently fused to Norman and they could never be removed from him again and he was just an evil person that I would give that issue an A+. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration but I would have loved that ending.
I love most of the Nick Spencer run, but I’ve come to realize that his decision to create the idea that Norman is evil because he is infected with “sins” that are a tangible thing that can be removed from him, leaving him as a good person – this may be something Spencer has added to the status quo that I can never forgive him for. I hate this idea, and it feels like it’s ruined the character, like we’re never going back to Norman Osborn being evil just because he’s an evil guy, which is a huge disservice to the character.
GRADE
D-
J.R. has said many times that he only gives an F to an issue that personally offends him. Did this issue personally offend me? I don’t know, maybe it did, but I just don’t feel like it’s an F.
This story started with some elements that I do not like – the sins of Norman Osborn being a tangible thing that can be transferred to another person. But there was enough in those early issues that I liked. But this issue just went all-in(5) on all the parts of this story I don’t like.
How do you write a finale to a Spider-Man/Green Goblin story where the two characters barely fight? The majority of the “fighting” here is the sins going back and forth between the two. I joked in the titles that this felt more like a Dr. Strange story, but how do you write a Spider-Man/Green Goblin story where the conflict is about metaphysical sins possessing both of them? In my humble opinion, that is not a Spider-Man/Green Goblin story. That is not a Spider-Man story.
NEXT TIME, IN AN ALL-NEW ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN …
According to the letters page, this is a one-shot story with a guest artist. No idea what’s happening here. But it’s gotta be better than this, right? Right?
FOOTNOTES
(1) If you believe this, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
(2) I gave them this name in the ASM #52 review.
(3) Oh Doug, I had such high hopes for you. You’ll never get your own solo mini-series now.
(4) “Crazier things” – like me expecting that this story would have a good ending.
(5) Am I allowed to say “all in” anymore? Is DC going to sue me?
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“The End” is what a student writes at the end of a 498 word report that has to be 500 words.
That final “The End” page was a failure on so many levels – that an editor would allow a writer to waste a whole page of a 22 page story by filling it with two words? That the writer himself had nothing more to add, nothing to setup future stories? That he has so completely run out of ideas that he couldn’t be bothered to put anything at all on the page? Not even a full page splash of spidey swinging with a word or two in a caption?!? And that there’s no editor in chief who cares that an entire page of a story was wasted in such a worthless way?
If no one at marvel cares about their flagship characters main book..? It’s hard to care enough to purchase that book. Marriage .. no marriage. This was one of the biggest offenses I have seen in decades. If not in my entire comic buying experience of almost 50 years of collecting. It’s enough to make me want to stop buying the main title after 50 years. Seriously.
“The End…” is how third graders fill up a story when they’ve run out of ideas and need to fill up the space assigned by the teacher.
@Dark Mark:
As a wise man once said … ’nuff said!
@Geiseric:
Maddie wasn’t “supposed to be the new love interest”, she *was* the new love interest. She was introduced in UXM #144 (?) after Scott left the team to grieve Jean, and ~30 issues later they had fallen in love and gotten married. Scott and Jean had never gotten married (they did after she returned from the dead later) so this marriage had every indication to be the new status quo for Scott.
Scott did eventually return to the X-Men but from what I remember his marriage to Maddie was a good one. They were happy. It was when Jean returned that Scott immediately left to investigate, and decide to form X-Factor with the original X-Men (including Jean) that trouble started. Maddie was justifiably worried about Scott’s first love coming back from the dead and him suddenly working with her on a team, and Scott being away from her so much, and her sitting at home, alone, pregnant, wondering what Scott and Jean were doing. Maddie wasn’t doing anything wrong here.
And I wouldn’t describe Maddie as “a pretty generic love interest for Scott”. She was her own character – before their marriage Scott said more than once that Maddie was not like Jean. Although she wasn’t a clone, she wasn’t exactly like her.
And like I said, turning her into the Goblin Queen was, for me, just poor writing. When a writer doesn’t know what to do with a supporting character, it’s weak to just give them powers and make them a hero/villain – it just shows that they have no idea what else to do with the character.
@Evan Berry:
The last few years have shown that good Norman – without the sins – will not become evil. He is a good person that has no interest in doing anything bad. This is fine for a new character, but this is Norman Osborn. This is not what I want for the character.
“It seems like all of this could have been resolved with Peter’s mental confrontation with the sins the first time they made him evil. (I can’t believe I just typed that.)” We’re meant to believe that Peter was only able to fight off the sins in this mental confrontation due to him wearing the Helmet, otherwise this confrontation would have happened during the previous SSM story.
“Why were all of Norman’s assets transferred to Peter again?” The sins’ plan was to transfer all of Norman’s wealth to Peter, then leave Norman and go into Peter, and permanently reside there. Peter would be permanently possessed by the sins and would have all of Norman’s wealth. Why did the sins want to do this instead of staying in Norman? It said that Peter was so pure and that it was more tantalizing to be inside him and corrupt him instead of corrupting Norman.
I’m sure Mark will chime in with some words for Rek-Rap, who again, did literally nothing in this story. He couldn’t even die right.
I agree about THE END page, that would be more appropriate for some the final issue of a years long story, or the last page of a maxi-series, or the last page of writer’s run on a book. What a waste.
“Are we seriously meant to have some sort of sympathy for Norman because his sins made him evil?” Yes, I think Marvel has been trying to gaslight us into thinking that Norman was never evil, it was always these sins that made him do all these horrible things, and we should see him as always having been a good man.
Well, I’m late to this review and what can I say that hasn’t already been said other than I’m all in on Evan’s Rek-Rap heart transplant theory. 🙂
Awesome review for a terrible issue. I saw a gym this fall flat on his face the other day and he still stuck The landing better than this issue did for this arc.
Maddie was supposed to be the new love interest , though their marriage wasn’t exactly great, but then they decided to release X-Factor which completely upended Claremont’s plans.
I think it worked out better as Maddie is much more interesting as a woman desperately chasing her own agency rather than a pretty generic love interest for Scott
@Hornacek – I agree with Paul Penna below: At least the sins are gone now, and maybe whenever Norman becomes evil again it will show that it’s not because of the sins themselves but something inherent in him.
That said, how much are you selling that bridge in Brooklyn for? I might have to make a few adjustments in my budget, but I think I could use a bridge. Is it the George Washington or the Brooklyn, though?
I had a blast reading your review, mostly because the plot seemed so ridiculous that I could hardly believe what I was reading. I’m so confused — I can’t even pretend to understand what’s going on. It seems like all of this could have been resolved with Peter’s mental confrontation with the sins the first time they made him evil. (I can’t believe I just typed that.) Why were all of Norman’s assets transferred to Peter again?
What about Mark’s eulogy for Rek-Rap? At this point it wouldn’t be far-fetched in this story for Rek-Rap to just give one of his extra hearts to Norman and then just call it a day.
I have never seen a comic book page dedicated to the words “The End.” That’s at least an opportunity for a beautiful full-page panel of Spider-man swinging towards the viewer or into the sunset. Or, you know, maybe Norman Osborn sneering menacingly, as way to end with some ambiguity.
Are we seriously meant to have some sort of sympathy for Norman because his sins made him evil? Even granting tangibility to sins, let’s suppose a person sins and that sin then becomes a tangible entity in their psyche. If the sin itself made that person evil, then the sin would either already exist before the sin was committed, which makes zero sense, or the sin didn’t exist before it was committed, in which case removing it afterwards does nothing to affect the psyche of the person that originally committed it, and at most constitutes some sort of atonement. I’m a chair!
At this point I’m ready for Robert Downey, Jr. to start writing Spider-man. Actually, no, I take that back.
THE END. Or is it?
Yes, it is.
@Paul Penna:
I don’t know if I’d call this issue “filler” but it was a very unsatisfying end to this story. If you have a Spider-Man/Green Goblin story then the last issue better have a big climatic fight between the two of them, not a lot of body-swapping/demonic possession where the two of them don’t really fight each other – it’s the sins themself that are fighting Peter/Norman.
I really liked the first Sinful Spider-Man and returning to it so soon felt like “What are we doing here?”
I never liked the idea of Norman being good, except for the knowledge that it would eventually be undone and he would be his normal evil self again. But this story couldn’t even do that – it made him evil, removed his evilness from him and killed it, so now he’s permanently good now? Who wants this?
“And that leaves the question, is he the kind of man who will just commit these sins all over again? Will he slip into bad habits? If given a clean slate, will he still become the Green Goblin?” I mean, isn’t that what we’ve seen for the past few years (?) with good Norman? Him helping Peter, becoming the Gold Goblin, trying to be a hero. It wasn’t like during all the time Norman was thinking “The sins could come back to me at any time so who knows how much time I have left?” It felt like he thought this was his new, permanent status quo. So this good Norman should act just like the good Norman for the past few years. There isn’t any intrigue about whether he’ll be bad again on his own because we’ve already seen that good Norman will continue to be good Norman.
I think, and it sounds like most of you agree, that most of this issue felt like filler. The sins jumping back and forth, Ms. Marvel’s team doing nothing etc.
Now, Spider-Man confronting the sins in his head and defeating them, that is how the story should’ve ended. But this and the Sinful Spider-Man story should’ve been a single story arc. Stretching it out over two arcs did not work. And this arc has felt very padded out, because most of the story was already told previously. So, it’s padded and re-treading old ground.
As a writer, I do like where this story leave Norman Osborn. The mystical sins are gone, they’re no longer this threat hanging over his head. His future is determined by him. And that leaves the question, is he the kind of man who will just commit these sins all over again? Will he slip into bad habits? If given a clean slate, will he still become the Green Goblin?
He’s out of excuses. No devils offering deals. No chemicals exploding in his face. No sins trying to corrupt him. Is Norman Osborn capable of being a good man? Or, at his very heart, is he corrupt and beyond redemption?
I think that is something really interesting to explore. And I hope over the next few years, we get writers who can explore these questions in interesting ways.
@Geiseric:
Like I said, I haven’t read those X-Men issues since they came out, but from what I remember, I have to disagree. Madelyne was really being setup as the new permanent love interest for Scott. Jean was dead, Scott mourned and moved on, he met Maddie, they fell in love, got married, and were going to have a baby. Then Marvel decided to bring Jean back to life and recreate the original team. At that point it was like Marvel had no idea what to do with Maddie’s character. Scott was spending all of his time with X-Factor (and Jean), and Maddie was just alone with her baby (or just being pregnant – again, can’t remember the exact timeline of events).
For me, it’s poor writing when a supporting character with no powers is suddenly given powers and turned into a hero/villain because Marvel didn’t know what to do with them – Jackpot, Hallow’s Eve, Flash/Venom (sorry Tyler), etc. Harry is an exception because it feels like making him the Green Goblin feels natural and earned given his history and family.
But for Maddie to suddenly make a deal with a demon, get demonic powers, and try to kill the X-Men and take over the world – this is not the character we read for dozens and dozens of issues who met Scott, fell in love with him, and wanted to spend the rest of her life with him.
Marvel, stop giving civilian supporting characters super-powers and try to turn them into superheroes/villains!
I don’t think Maddie’s character changed radically. I think the build up to her heel turn was great. You felt sympathy for Maddie and how life had wronged her and understood why she would prefer the world burn rather than deal with all this bullshit anymore
Like Maddie is a big part of why inferno is great
@Michael:
Maddie was in a terrible headspace here. She had been dumped by her husband for his ex-girlfriend who everyone thought was dead but came back. Scott also abandoned Madie while she was pregnant (or a new mom – I can’t remember the order of these events). In any case, Scott was a terrible husband. #JusticeForMadelyne
So when S’ym came to her and made her this offer, she was a wreck and her life had fallen apart. And from the dialogue you posted here, it sounds like she thought this was just a dream and didn’t think it was real, and S’ym tricked her.
This really feels, in retrospect, that the writers had no idea what to do with Madelyne. She was intended to be Scott’s new love interest, but then Jean was brought back, so they didn’t know what purpose she had. So why not turn her into a villain? I can’t remember but the letters pages must have been full of letters from readers saying how terrible a husband Scott was for abandoning his wife, even for Jean. So why not make Maddie evil to get the readers to turn on her and say “See? Scott was right to abandon Maddie, she’s crazy! And evil!”
@Geiseric- I was referring to Uncanny X-Men 234:
S’ym approaches Maddie in a dream:
S’ym: Think about it– what better way to exorcise the parts you detest than by confronting them. and where better to yield to temptation? Hey.. if you can’t indulge your wildest fantasies in a dream, then where? Hubby-boy Scott, he dumped you.
Maddie: I love him.
S’ym: Doesn’t that make it worse? He hurt you, Madelyne! Hurt him back!
Maddie: What the heck? It’s only a dream. (agrees)
S’ym: Wrong. There are no dreams. Only different shapes, different … tastes, different orders of reality. And you’ve just bound yourself to mine!
And a few issues later, Maddie has a completely different personality. Wells liked this but half the fans felt it was a contrived way to change a character’s personality. Which is exactly the problem with his writing of Ben and Kafka.
@Geiseric:
I haven’t read those Inferno issues since they came out so I was relying on his version of events. I do remember Scott being very happy with Madelyne but as soon as he heard Jean was alive he left. Or did he stay with Madelyne while he reunited with Jean in the original X-Force? All I remember for sure is that Scott was a horrible husband to her once he learned Jean was alive.
Wait he thinks Pryor was tricked by the demons in inferno? She absolutely was not tricked. She grabbed at the power over her frustration in her lack of agency in her own life because her life was genuinely terrible
@Michael:
Yeah, it feels like this happened all the time, but it only happened in 2 stories: ASM #96-98 (the drug issues), and Spec SM magazine #2.
Although they never figured out what – if anything – to do with Norman while he had forgotten he was the Green Goblin. Kraven kidnapped him (#47?), they did have him save Gwen (and her father?) from the Brainwasher, and he was often appearing to worry about Harry. But it always felt like the reader was just waiting for him to remember everything and turn evil again.
There’s a reason why when he came back from the dead he was full-blown evil all the time. He’s a much more interesting character this way.
BTW, there were only two stories in between Amazing Spider-Man 40 where Norman lost his memory and Amazing Spider-Man 122 where he got it back where Norman got his memory back and then lost it at the end of the story. Even Stan Lee found it difficult to pull off satisfyingly.(And after this mess, one can see why.)
@Michael:
The way I read it is that for decades Norman was an evil man because that’s who he was. But thanks to Sin Eater returning, his evilness was removed from him and put into this “sins” that was a thing that could be transferred to another person. Like removing your coat and giving it to someone else to wear.
Also, wasn’t one of the Spencer retcons that Norman was a good man who made a deal with Mephisto to trade Harry’s soul for wealth and success? That retcon implied that Norman would have been a good man if he hadn’t made this deal, which contradicts all of the stories of Norman being a bad person as a child and youth before he grew up and made that deal.
My problem is that there should not be any redemption for Norman. He has been an evil man for decades, killing many people. He shouldn’t want redemption. He liked being the Green Goblin. For me this is not character growth, it’s changing the character to someone they never were.
“Wells has said he liked the way Madelyne Pryor was transformed into the Goblin Queen, when she was tricked into making a deal with a demon in a dream and woke up with a completely different personality.” From what I remember, Madelyne was abandoned by her husband Scott (while she was pregnant?) because he learned Jean was still alive. She was miserable and her entire world had fallen apart, and Belasco (or whatever demon tricked her into make that deal) was able to prey on her horrible life to make that deal. But with this Norman retcon, he just did it for money.
“I think the little heads are meant to represent people that Norman killed.” Yes, one of them was obviously Gwen. Wasn’t sure about the other ones though.
“The letters page said that Zeb’s run was originally planned to end with issue 55 but they extended it 5 issues and decided to end it with issue 60. I wonder why they extended it and which the extra issues were.” I missed that. The Spidey/Tombstone story seems like the obvious end to Zells’ run, since that’s what it started with. I wonder if this 5 issue Norman issue was the one that was added. I don’t know if I’d call it rushed but it feels like a lot of it relies on information that was never setup in previous issues and we’re just told those things happened without ever seeing them.
“Also, what happens to Ock’s arms after this issue? I thought they’d use this as an excuse for Ock to get his arms back. But Kamala just walks off with them and she doesn’t have them in NYX, so what happens to them?” These tentacles are sentient, right? They were hanging out with Jonah, so wouldn’t they want to go home with him again?
I don’t think that we’re supposed to believe that the sins are evil Norman was infected with as a result of the deal he made. Norman says to the sins “I made you”. And the same process for removing the sins also worked on Count Nefaria and Mr. Negative, neither of whom made any deals. I think that the idea is that the sins represent Norman’s evil, and it’s been separated from him and destroyed. The problem is that it’s an artificial way to bring about Norman’s redemption, rather than genuine character growth. Wells has said he liked the way Madelyne Pryor was transformed into the Goblin Queen, when she was tricked into making a deal with a demon in a dream and woke up with a completely different personality. And that shows in how he handles his characterizations. Most of his major changes- Ben Reilly, Kafka, Norman- are the result of outside forces and not slow and gradual character development.
I think the little heads are meant to represent people that Norman killed.
The letters page said that Zeb’s run was originally planned to end with issue 55 but they extended it 5 issues and decided to end it with issue 60. I wonder why they extended it and which the extra issues
were.
Also, what happens to Ock’s arms after this issue? I thought they’d use this as an excuse for Ock to get his arms back. But Kamala just walks off with them and she doesn’t have them in NYX, so what happens to them?
@Geiseric:
There’s no consistency with the sins. When they infected Queen Goblin she just became evil – she didn’t become “the Green Goblin”. She was still herself. Same with Peter in the previous Sinful SM story – he was still himself, just evil. But in this issue when they take over Peter, he literally becomes another person.
“This gives Peter a character arc and by extension so can Norman you may not like Norman being good but Norman using this as an opportunity to deal with his own issues could work.” This is true, but it’s not something I want for the character. We’ve had decades of stories with Norman just being an evil guy because that’s who he is. Now we’re told it’s because of some weird mystical deal with the devil, and he’s infected with “evil” and without it he’s actually a good person? I wasn’t around for this but pre-Norman’s death, Norman would lose his memory a lot and become a good person, but I’m ok with that because he literally has amnesia and has forgotten who he really is. Each time he would eventually remember and become “evil Norman Osborn”. But for me to believe that he’s always been a good person infected with “evil” – I just don’t want that.
“The problem is this arc ignored all that and makes it a possession story. Which means neither Peter nor Norman have any real character growth and Peter doesn’t actually do anything in this arc making that two page spread kind of hollow.” This issue reminded me of the film Fallen starring Denzel Washington on the hunt of a serial killer (and later being stalked by him) who turns out to actually be a devil that hops from body to body by touching them. There are multiple scenes where Denzel is talking to the killer who touches someone walking by and suddenly the killer is in another body. It’s very well done in that film, but here I almost started laughing with the sins going into Norman, then back into Peter, then back into Norman, then back etc. The last issue of a Spidey/Green Goblin story should be a knock-down fight for the ages, not body-swapping and possessions.
“Like I like the first arc because it did have something to say but this arc had nothing to say and it ended more or less where it began” I agree, the first SSM story was pretty good (great compared to this one). The idea to bring back SSM again (and so soon) was a big mistake. It reminds me of Venom’s first appearance which, despite its flaws, was pretty exciting. But then Micheline/Marvel decided to bring back Venom almost immediately again. And again. And again.
What has changed after this arc? Norman is still good, supposedly for good now. Peter is still Peter. He appears open to being friends with Norman. The sins are “gone” but come on, no one really buys that. There were likely many Spidey/Goblin stories pre-Norman’s death that ended with a return to the status quo (Spidey defeating the Goblin with Norman getting amnesia again) but those feel much better than this.
This issue is confusing because it has basically nothing to do with the first gobbles arc? Like the point of the first arc is the sins amplified what was already there. So Peters bitterness is something the sins didn’t create but amplified. This gives Peter a character arc and by extension so can Norman you may not like Norman being good but Norman using this as an opportunity to deal with his own issues could work.
The problem is this arc ignored all that and makes it a possession story. Which means neither Peter nor Norman have any real character growth and Peter doesn’t actually do anything in this arc making that two page spread kind of hollow.
Like I like the first arc because it did have something to say but this arc had nothing to say and it ended more or less where it began
I think this is up there with dead language for the worst arc just because there was stuff they could have done and instead they did nothing