The Chi-Town Breakdown: ASM #73

21 Comments

1. When did Harry make a deal with Mephisto? What seems to be lacking in comics these days is the reference to a previous issue, especially for new readers who may not be familiar with the Sins Past storyline, etc. or perhaps need a refresher.

   Anyone else feel cheated out of their money? $3.99 for a comic book that takes five minutes to read? I long for the days in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s when comics had some meat in them – from description boxes setting to scene to long dialogue between characters, even if it was mundane banter explaining an action sequence.

2. Judging from the comments, I’m not the only one confused about the hows and whys.

   My knowledge of Spider-man’s continuity is rough: I do know the main events in his history, but I started only recently to read every issue from AF 15 and, apart from some famous storyline here and there (like the Clone Saga), I don’t know every detail (yet).
   Having said that, I was a bit perplexed on what kind of help could Stromm give in engineering children, clones or not. I know him from his first appearance (and death) and then from his Gaunt identity, but unless I’m forgetting something, he never seemed like an expert in bioengineering or genetics.

   @Mark
   Your interpretation makes sense and I was coming to a similar conclusion, the more I thought about it. Only, I think it’s Harry’s damned soul that got more information being in Hell. That would fit better in continuity, if Kindred contacted Stromm for making the twins and Mysterio for implanting false memories, after Harry’s death. (the only problem I have is the panel showing Harry as Goblin and Stromm as Robot Master, but we know the latter can’t be as many fellow commentators noted)
   However that leaves the question as how a damned soul could do all that and how it’s connected to the AI, unless, as Michael suggested, the AI is demonic and connected to Harry’s soul.
   It also remains to be seen what is Harry Lyman and how he’s connected to this mess.

   Sorry if I sound not making totally sense, but at first I was writing this to post my new interpretation of events. I thought that once again the fault was in Spencer’s bad habit of overlapsing panels (often flashbacks) and narration that don’t belong to each other for creating an effect of “resonance of meaning”. However I then saw the panel I cited before and realized it’s probably the plot that doesn’t make sense.

3. My take on it, until we get more of a reveal, is that what AI Harry knows and what Harry knew could be two different things. AI Harry may have gotten more information (Norman is alive, etc.) and never shared it with real Harry. I assume that AI Harry, with his access to the Internet and the Osborn computer files, can learn things that real Harry could not. So real Harry goes on believing that Peter set up his father while AI Harry is manipulating things.

   I will say that I am not as knowledgeable about AI Harry before this issue (though I did just go back and read Goblin Legacy), so maybe that is not a good understanding, but it would explain the problems in the timeline. Plus I like that idea that AI Harry is such a prick that he doesn’t even trust the real version of himself.

   I’ll let those with more knowledge vindicate me or trounce my theory.

4. @Guss – “At first I thought it was all the A.I but the issue shows an alive Harry creating the twins. If Harry didn’t think his dad was dead and was really an bad guy who killed Gwen, what was his problem with Peter back then? Why was he ranting about Peter framing Norman for all those issues? And wasn’t Stromm Gaunt at the time and in Europe working for Norman?”

   Those are my exact thoughts. The timeline, as presented, doesn’t make any sense. I mean, you could say that AI Harry is using an LMD body or is plain lying, but that is clearly not the intent here. This is meant to be a reveal.

   This doesn’t fit Harry’s mindset at the time. Before he died Harry claimed Peter set Norman up. In Spectacular Spider-Man #200 Harry Osborn was in deep denial.

   And Stromm was working for Norman Osborn as Gaunt.

   Plus, Harry couldn’t have known he was going to die. So, AI Harry must’ve sent Mysterio there when Norman visited his corpse, to make Norman think he wasn’t dead. Because this shows Mysterio messing with Norman at the morgue, right? So, what exactly was AI Harry’s plan? Because he couldn’t know Harry would be coming back from the dead. Did he have an LMD Harry ready to go?

   And if that was the plan, why wouldn’t the LMD Harry reveal himself sooner? Why go to the effort to trick Norman into believing Harry was still alive, just to have him spend years in hiding?

   Also, Harry recruits Mysterio to brainwash Norman through the walls of his mansion in Europe (where he was at the time), except Harry doesn’t know where Norman is at the time, just that he would come back. So, when does Mysterio brainwash Norman into believing Sarah and Gabriel are his kids? Is it right away, when Norman’s location is unknown… or is known… I guess as Harry is able to hire Mendell… but even then Norman is under heavy guard by Scrier. It doesn’t seem likely, does it? But it can’t be after Norman returns at the end of the Clone Saga, because Mysterio has committed suicide by then.

   The logic at play here is just bizarre. The more you think about it, the less sense it makes.

5. At first I thought it was all the A.I but the issue shows an alive Harry creating the twins.

   If Harry didn’t think his dad was dead and was really an bad guy who killed Gwen, what was his problem with Peter back then? Why was he ranting about Peter framing Norman for all those issues?

   And wasn’t Stromm Gaunt at the time and in Europe working for Norman?

6. @Aqu@ – “Because in previous stories they seemed to be their own persons, with Sarah even kissing Peter… Was that Harry too? ” Ahhhh! Yuck!

   Ha! Ha! I sure hope JR addresses this on the podcast! That’s brilliant, Aqu@!

7. First impression: on one hand, I’m glad they retconned Sins Past. On the other, this issue was rather confusing. It’s the part where Harry says the Gabriel in American Son was another “iteration” that seems uselessly overcomplicated.
   Also, it seems the twins act as vessels for his damned soul (and in fact it appears there are two Kindred at the same time, one with Peter, the other, “Sarah”, with MJ), but how does that work? I mean, are they self-aware and independent persons who at one particular moment cease to exist for Kindred’s soul to inhabit the body or are they just meat clothes? Because in previous stories they seemed to be their own persons, with Sarah even kissing Peter… Was that Harry too? LOL
   I also just realized: while hypnosis may explain Norman and MJ’s false memories, who did write the letter where Gwen explained her pregnancy? It was written in Gwen’s calligraphy, if I recall correctly.

   It’s not just the content that’s confusing, the exposition too: when “Sarah” is talking with MJ, she says “then they (the twins) met you (MJ)”, but the panels show their meeting with Spider-man.

   This issue is a bit of a mess. But at least my feeling about the tubes and the twins was right. Yay?

   Just wanted to get that out of the system, I’ll read the comments later to be more participative.

8. This issue raises a few questions.
   First, I think that the idea is that Kindred is inhabiting both twins’ bodies, not just Sarah’s. That’s why trapping one of his bodies in Darkforce didn’t stop the centipedes from attacking Carlie.
   But yeah, we need to be clearer on what Kindred actually is. It’s clear that Norman sold Harry to Mephisto, Harry created the AI, the AI created the twins to serve as vessels for Kindred and due to Norman’s deal, Kindred has magical powers. But is Kindred the AI or Harry’s soul? Is the idea that since Harry created the AI after Norman’s deal, the AI is a magical, demonic computer? (Whereas it would have been a normal computer if Harry copied his mind before Norman’s deal.) Or is that Mephisto allowed Harry’s spirit to return to Earth to do evil?
   @Adam- I think Mephisto was lying about not knowing Kindred since he obviously knew who Harry was.
   Kindred would have to be supernatural. Both Strange and Mordo seemed to think he was magical, and he was able to steal the Juggernaut’s magical powers.
   @Paul, Chi- Town- I think the scene with Mysterio and the morgue takes place after Norman’s visit to Harry’s grave in Peter Parker: Spider-Man 44, since Norman is talking in that issue like Harry’s dead.
   @Paul- If Harry wanted Gabriel to serve as his body, it’s possible that he was trying to build a body that could fool a DNA scanner.
   Stromm should be in his Gaunt identity during the flashback, not Robot Master.
   I assumed that Mysterio hypnotized MJ after Mysterio’s return from the dead, but who knows?
   What worries me is that we might not get a clear answer as to whether or not Ned is one of Harry’s and the Chameleon’s sick jokes. The evidence supports either interpretation. Ned remembered the mansion where the twins were created, so he could have been created there, but Harry clearly owned the mansion before Ned’s death, so Ned could have been there if he’s the real Ned. Peter thought Ned was real because he remembered a fight between him and Flash over Betty, but Flash could have mentioned the fight to Harry.
   “Dark Mark and I will be back in two weeks”. No, you won’t. Issue 74 got pushed back to September 29th.

9. @ Sthenurus: More power to ya then, my friend. I do too hope OMD is “resolved”.

   @ Prof. Warren: Respectfully I disagree. The explanation to some stories are left unresolved. So he’s finding ways to make some kind of resolution that will satisfy the fans…in a way.

   @AC: It’s okay, but don’t worry. I know you like me best, we won’t tell Mark.

   @Mark: OH HEY BUDDY! We were just talking about you…all good things, all good things. To answer your questions. AI Harry is digital, so any physical form can be repaired like T2 per say. The centipedes fit in more to me thinking demonic Harry is involved with Kindred than AI Harry. No worries…our reviews for next issue will be loaded.

10. Nice job, Chi-Town. I didn’t envy you tackling this loaded story!

    Questions I still have:
    *If Kindred is AI Harry in Stacy body, then how did he survive Spider-Man punching through him?
    *How do the large centipedes fit in? For that matter, the small centipedes that like to live in ears? Ock’s success over them in SW#4 implies that they are indeed actual centipedes not a miniature robot or mind control device.
    *Kindred’s ability to generate several Tri-Sentinels, be so scary that Kingpin would bow, have the ability to bring back Sin-Eater and give him a sin cleansing weapon, and other events suggest that this is more than a clone with an AI brain. There has to be more here than what we got this issue to make it make sense.

    Next issue is about 90 pages, so we have about four issues worth to review, buddy. Get some sleep. It’s going to be a long ride.

11. I mean, Kindred has to be supernatural. It’s how he’s resurrecting all those villains. Maybe he’s using Sarah Stacy as a host, but if he’s using the Chameleon’s formula, he could just as easy be faking his appearance as Sarah Stacy.

    Also, Gabriel and Sarah must be the children of Norman and Gwen. Even if they were artificially created. Sarah looks just like Gwen, and the American Son armor only works for those with Osborn DNA, which means that Harry Lyman and Gabriel Stacy must be the genetic children of Norman Osborn.

    And I don’t buy that Harry Osborn when he died knew his father was still out there and wanted revenge on him. Especially since Stromm was working for Norman and Scrier at that point in time, and it was Norman who had access to cloning tech, not his son or Mendell. I could believe that AI Harry Osborn planned that later, after Norman came back at the end of the Clone Saga, but not before. Mysterio certainty couldn’t have implanted the morgue memory before then, if Norman wasn’t the one who contacted him. Norman was too well protected by the Scrier organisation. And after the Clone Saga, Mysterio was dead, right?

    Also, having an unreliable narrator like an insane computer AI make this revelation completely undermines it. Why should we trust anything this AI is saying?

    You should never retcon something just to retcon it. If you can create a decent story out of it, go for it. This is just a convoluted mess. With no real set up. Sarah and Gabriel should’ve been reintroduced earlier, if you want to make them part of the reveal.

    This is a lot of nonsense just to try and say Gwen Stacy (a dead character) didn’t have sex with Norman Osborn. And that’s all this story does.

12. I’m with Professor Warren: I’m glad we are reaching the end of this storyline, but it has become an interminable slog through an impenetrable mess. That it has taken 75 issues to get this far is, in the words of Slott’s Parker: “crazy town banana-pants”. I cringe to think of what any newcomer to Spider-Man comics must have thought of the past ten or so issues. I, like Warren, started reading in the 70s (ASM 170 to be exact), and only my deep acquired knowledge of spider-lore allows me to appreciate what Spencer has done here.

    That, and my awareness back with #1 that this was how it was going to be with Nick Spencer at the helm. Anyone who has read any of his past works (Morning Glories, anyone?) could have predicted the cadence of his Spider-Man run. Morning Glories became so convoluted, with layer upon layer of secrets and twists that I quit the book just before he did, after 45 issues of me stumbling in the dark as a reader. He is an insanely deliberate plotter, but too often assumes that what is evident to him as a writer is as evident to the reader. He has developed his skills at bringing the reader along with him but at some point the journey becomes almost too long to be worth the trip.

    I do hope he sticks the landing, finishes the story he wanted to tell and leaves Peter Parker and cast in a place where the next talented writer can pick up after this 25-issue “intermission” and get the franchise back into some light, entertaining 2-3 issue story arcs. Too much to ask? We’ll see in two weeks…
    Der Perfesser

13. @Prof.

    Thanks. I’ve seen a few different interpretations of this issue. Hope Spencer is bringing his A Game to the next issue.

    There’s a few things that need explaining.

14. Good review as always, i always look forward to yours AND Mark’s reviews, it’s okay to like both of you right?
    As for the story, I have questions, and as Prof Warren said, it feels unnecessarily drawn out, if I didn’t know about Sin’s Past it would have felt flat. But I do know about one of the worst stories in Spider-Man history, so having it retconned is awesome!!! Sin’s Past as the opening act, OMD as the main show next issue? That’s what it feels like to me. I understand and partially agree with people who think Spenser hasn’t done a great job in how he is telling his story, but for me the story he is telling is great. (assuming it ends how I think it will) I look forward to, after next issue, when it is all over, (assuming its all over) going and reading his run from beginning to end, to see how it reads in one go. I’m wandering if it will read better in one go, instead of getting it piece by piece over three years.

15. Adam, Kindred is not Spec 200 Harry. That’s the corpse in this issue. He’s definitively dead. Kindred (as I understand it) is the AI consciousness of Harry from Legacy of Evil inhabiting the clone bodies of both Gabriel and Sarah. As for Kindred not being supernatural at all, I would doubt that – although I suppose at this point anything is possible!

16. the one things that doesn’t works for me is the Mendel Stromm angle. He was dead when Harry arrange the robot parents with chameleon

17. Hello,

    Please can someone clarify Kindred’s identity for me. Kindred is Spec Spider-Man 200 Harry possessing Sarah Stacey. Using Chameleon serum to look like Harry. Yes?

    I’m wondering if Kindred is a demon at all and it isn’t just Harry AI, Mysterio, and a lot of cloning technology mimicking the mystic stuff. Remember neither Mephisto or Baron Mordo had any idea who Kindred was.

    I’ve seen a few sites suggestion Harry Lyman is Gabe…which makes no sense to me. It reminds us in this issue they’ve met. I think those who’ve said Harry is a clone are correct. Otherwise it raises some difficult issues about Stanley’s Origin. If Harry’s clone is the father, the story can run on, if a Chameleon is the father…what does that mean for Stanley? And whose telling Menace?

18. Hey Chi-Town!

    Awesome review! I l enjoyed reading your thoughts as it help clear alot of things for me. I guess I have a question/ concern that worries me. How does OMD fit into this Sins Past Retcon? Do you have any theories how Spencer will connect the two? Is Kindred a demonic entity or has that been a ruse all this time? Will Spidey beat the crap out of Mephisto in #875?

    Also, Just wondering, is it still canon that Peter never shared a toothbrush with Gwen either? I always thought that was a bad development from Sins Past too.

19. Hey Chi-Town!

    Awesome review! I l enjoyed reading your thoughts as it help clear alot of things for me. I guess I have a question/ concern that worries me. How does OMD fit into this Sins Past Retcon? Do you have any theories how Spencer will connect the two? Is Kindred a demonic entity or has that been a ruse all this time? Will Spidey beat the crap out of Mephisto in #875?

    Also, Just wondering, is it still canon that Peter never shared a toothbrush with Gwen either? I always thought that was a bad development from Sins Past too.

20. I’m honestly glad to see that someone enjoyed this issue. Sadly it felt like the rock bottom of Spencer’s run for me. In its own way it’s worse than the storylines that it’s attempting to fix as at least those – whether you like them or not – were actually telling stories. What Spencer is doing is a laborious repair job that, to my mind, was better left alone. If you absolutely need to play the retcon game, though, at least do it quickly and entertainingly. Stretching it out in agonizing fashion for 3 years, no. That should have never been an option. As a long time reader – since the early ’70s! – and someone fairly well versed in Spidey lore, I found this issue to be a near impenetrable sludge of references to stories I barely remember. For some, maybe the end will justify the means. But as I said, if you’re going to go all in on retconning, at least find a way to make it fun and accessible. Spencer did some good things during his run and his first year was really, really solid. But when you’re telling one long arc over the course of 3 years, you absolutely *have* to stick the landing. Maybe the final issue will be so satisfying I’ll say that he did but based on this issue, it feels like it has simply crashed hard.

21. Well I sure hope someone picks up that phone… Cause I f****ING called it!!

    I thought Gabe was gonna be kindred and not sarah, but I knew the rising sin storyline was echoing the sins past one.

    Harry Lyman being a clone, called it too.

    I really hope OMD will be adress next issue. Otherwise I feel this run would have been built on a bait and switch, and it would reduce the whole quality of the run in retrospect.
    Basically I hope Spencer doesn’t pull a JMS and have a great run weighted down by an unsatisfactory ending (ironically both caused by OMD)