This is it! The long awaited for CONCLUSION to the Kindred story! Will it deliver the goods or will it have been dragged out too long beyond redemption or worse – will Spencer have pulled a fast one on us and all this promise of change was for naught? Well, only one way to find out! OK, there are many ways to find out, but one of them is to jump on in and read the review!
Credit Where Credit Is Due
Story Title: At What Cost?
Writers: Nick Spencer with Christos Gage
Pencillers: Mark Bagley, Marcello Ferreira, Ze Carlos, Dio Neves, Carlos Gomez, Ivan Fiorelli, and Humberto Ramos
Inkers: Wayne Faucher with Marcello Ferreira; Andrew Hennessy and Andy Owens; Ze Carlos, Dio Neves, Carlos Gomez, Ivan Fiorelli, and Victor Olazaba
Colorists: Andrew Crossley, Edgar Delgado, and Alex Sinclair
Letterer: VC’s Joe Caramanga
Cover Artists: Patrick Gleason and Alejandro Sanchez
Asst. Editor: Lindsey Cohick
Editor: Nick Lowe
Published: September 29, 2021
Walloping web shooters! That’s a load of artists!
Remedial ASM 101
An entity calling himself/herself/itself/themselves Kindred has been stalking our webbed hero for 74 issues (plus bonus issues). It appears to be Harry or Sarah or an AI computer program gone wonky or really who knows at this point? But the recap page tells us that there are indeed two Kindreds and one is Sarah and the other is Gabriel. Spider-Man can’t beat Kindred on his best day and today is far from his best. He’s bleeding out from an attack by 1.4 trillion villains (or so, I lost count after 30 – hey, I teach English, not math!) and is one step away from collapsing. Norman is dealing with an AI Harry. MJ is dealing with what appears to be a Sarah Stacy Kindred.
The Story – Pay Attention, This Will Be on the Test
Harry wakes up from a dream of his death only to discover that it was all true. He pleads to Mephisto that he died a good man, redeemed and Mephisto pokes holes all in that. Back to modern day, MJ and Norman join the party as everyone falls through little mirrors to get to the final boss battle. Dr. Strange and Mephisto are still betting on the outcome of the fight, this time Strange puts his soul on the line for Harry. Meanwhile, Harry Lyman reveals to Carlie that he is a clone living a lie and wants to do something worthwhile before turning into a deconstructed biscuit. He and Carlie leave the morgue to enter his home? while Spider-Man gets the ever-loving crap beat out of him in a VERY loud fight. Harry decides the only way to be of any use is to attack with goblin-gear, though he will not be going as the goblin, but as HARRY OSBORN! He and Peter team up and do pretty well while Norman cowers in the corner with MJ. The Kindred twins tear into Norman and Harry and Peter save his sorry rear end. Norman tells the twins the truth about their parentage. He also reveals that it was Mephisto pulling the strings all along. Harry sacrifices himself to save dear old daddy and now Peter wants some revenge. Apparently, getting revenge will somehow void Peter’s soul and Mephisto will win the bet. But right as the twins literally bring down the house and all seems lost and Peter can’t even do his magic super lift, MJ is there to help him. That gives him hope, which wins the day. The Kindred twins disintegrate and return to Mephisto’s Realm. Dr. Strange and Mephisto talk about why Peter is important to Mephisto and Peter and MJ get a happily ever after.
OOTI (Onomatopoeia of the Issue)
On a scale of 1 (POW) to 10 (BLRKBQRKPQRBLNB), KATAMMM! Gets a 9. Sounds like lightning is about to strike and turn Spidey into Captain Universe again! There were so many good onomatopoeias to choose from here!
Rubric
We are looking for a wrap up to Spencer’s run, so did it fulfill all the metrics we were looking for?
Cost Analysis – I think it is fair to point out that we at the Crawlspace have been very critical of $10 books – and rightly so. In this case the book is 80+ pages long (plus more for ads if you have a print copy). That in itself is not enough for me to forgive the price. If over half of those pages are back up stories that I don’t care about, then I’m still feeling jipped in the end. In this case we get 62 pages of story. A standard comic has form 20-22 pages of story. So, I’m getting roughly just shy of three comics for the price of a little over 2 if they had spaced it out. I’m OK with that. Now it is just a matter of if the main story was worth it.
Kindred’s identity – Something is screwy here. Kindred’s earlier talks with Norman in the asylum do NOT match either Gabriel nor Sarah. There is no reason for Gabriel or Sarah to talk about the old party or the return of Harry party. I am not at all upset that it was not Harry all along, but I am frustrated that the reveal does not match the clues. At all. And where exactly does the AI fit into all of this? Do we need an AI Harry if Mephsito is the force behind it? I also know that it could just be that I did a poor job reading it and missed something along the way, but I think there is more to it than that.
I think making the twins Kindred is a fine idea and it does bring back in the two different colors of his jacket (thought he coloring of those jackets in this issue doesn’t match how they were done up in early issues, so it really doesn’t settle that problem), but I can’t shake the feeling that it was not them to begin with. I know some are speculating that Christos Gage was brought into “fix” a few things and if he was and this was part of the fix, I don’t blame him. He’s just doing his job.
It also brings in a weird implication. They are lab creations that have souls for Mephisto to torture?
Oh, and I guess I should cancel that run of MARK WAS RIGHT T-shirts after all. I hope I can get back my deposit…
With Mephisto being behind them all along (you know you are singing it in your head), that would explain how Mysterio and Sin-Eater could come back to life and other amazing demonic things Kindred has been a part of. But it doesn’t explain one thing that I will get to later.
Harry Lyman/Harry Osborn – I know some of the commenters on the front page had some serious issues with Harry’s redeeming death still leading him to hell. I had no such qualms, but I think the scene with Harry and Mephisto at the beginning is a great way to reconcile that. Yes, it was one redeeming act, but there was the others that he let go. However, I thought for sure that when clone Harry redeemed himself there at the end, it would have freed his soul, leaving Mephisto in a lurch with Strange. Alas, that was not the case. As it stands, though, Harry’s original death is back to being canon and Harry’s soul can finally be at rest. I think this was a good ending for Harry.
Dr. Strange and Mephisto confrontation – I found this whole thing confusing and Dr. Strange leaves never knowing what happened to Peter. All this gambling for souls and it was Harry’s soul they were gambling for? Then there is this:
Is he referring to losing his deal with Peter and MJ? Is that what he is not referring to? If so, then I guess the implication is that the deal is done and over? Dr. Strange won that without ever knowing what he was fighting for? At one point, Mephisto said he wanted the stakes made clear, but Mephisto’s Realm if I know what they were. It truly seems like this did not resolve itself the way it was originally envisioned. My assumption is that the deal is done and we can move forward, but I just felt there was too much promise for a more direct attack. So let’s get to that.
Addressing the Deal with the Devil – It appears Spencer pulled an alternate assignment here. Does he address the deal? Not directly. Apparently, all the mentions of the deal with the devil were in regards to Norman’s deal with Harry’s soul (I still find it unsettling that we can now have other people bargain other people’s souls – and yes, I know it is only a fictional accounting, but that is what these reviews are all about, right? Deep diving into the story? To that end, I am not a big follower of stories that Mephisto normally treads in, so maybe this has happened before, but my understanding is that your soul belongs to you and you alone can decide what happens to it). So did I find it disappointing that Peter and MJ leave this book without the deal being officially and finally reckoned with? YES. (See above point)
However, let’s review this a bit. What did I want from the deal being addressed? Ultimately, I wanted Peter and MJ to be able to move forward in their relationship. Do we get that here? YES. Since I was not expecting a reinstatement of the marriage (Spencer has been quite clear that he is NOT for just erasing continuity, but dealing with the consequences of the bad storytelling), so I was not upset to see that they are not married again (though I like that concept).
You know what else labeled unbreakable? 1970s Tonka Trucks.
That didn’t stop me from spending an entire afternoon with my friend proving them wrong. I broke that sucker! My mother was not as thrilled about my accomplishment. Anyway, the point is, I both like the term ‘unbreakable’ with Spencer’s end here and now you know why I am a bit suspicious of anything labeled as ‘unbreakable’.
And then Spencer, ever one to suggest something different, leaves us this panel:
Let’s look at this. Mephisto is scared of Peter Parker because one day Peter will bring about his downfall. So he tries to derail Peter. But Dr. Strange points out that he doesn’t just go after Peter, but also after MJ.
Why?
My reading on this is to look back at that panel and get a good glimpse of Peter’s face.
Those are some serious angry eyebrows. That is a man who is ready to inflict some serious pain. Yes, I know I have an unhealthy fascination with comic book eyebrows, but go with me here for a moment.
We have only seen Peter pushed to that limit twice. Once when Gwen Stacy was thrown off the bridge. Once when Aunt May died. And both times, he reins himself in before the killing punch.
But Mephisto sees this ending differently. So what could make Peter finally snap? MJ. Something is going to happen to MJ. Mephisto knows that when MJ dies (or other similar catastrophe) during his big take over, Peter will flat-out end Mephisto.
That’s why he wants the marriage. That’s why he wants Peter to corrupt himself here against Kindred – not to sully a hero’s soul, but to end MJ and Peter getting back together. He wants her disgusted with him or he disgusted with himself to the point where they cannot form that bond.
And he failed.
He’s failed twice now.
So, we get that bond here, but now we wait for some major Mephisto plot. That will be the (potential) end of Peter and MJ. Of course, it looks like all the other heroes are dead, so that doesn’t mean she’ll be dead after the fact. There might be a deus ex machina event that fixes things afterward, but then again, maybe not.
What I’m still left with is, if Mephisto wants Peter and MJ out of the picture, why let Kindred resurrect Peter all those times? Can someone with more Mephisto experience reading explain to me if Mephisto’s hands are tied when it comes to killing people? It seems to me he could have just solved the who problem by leaving Peter dead at Kindred’s hands.
Extra Credit
Goes to Spencer. His parting message to us the reader is:
That was a big undertaking and he has my respect for the attempt and the end product.
Final Grade
What do we grade here? The issue? The entire run? Why not both!
Amazing Spider-Man #74 – I was engaged the whole time. The Stacy twins seems a bit overly complicated to me and the art was wonky at times (but the story so compelling, it didn’t take me out of it), but in the end, I think Spencer stuck the landing – mostly. I feel like the parts that didn’t land may not have been Spencer’s but a rewrite, but I don’t know for sure. Because of that, it leaves me feeling, once again, that we were this close to greatness… I want to give this an A-, but I think upon a reread of the comic, I am going with
B+
Spencer’s Run as a whole – I am very happy with his run. I have one complaint with his writing – the pacing. I felt that a lot of the enjoyment I would have had from this run was tainted by the just under Bendis-style pacing. That said, Spencer reset SO MANY THINGS. That was not easy. He clearly did his research on everything (except Goblin formula application). We are left with several hanging storylines that may never get resolved, but that is life in comic books. Plus, so many bad villains (OK, maybe a little too many bad villains at the end)! The biggest factor in this run, for me, is that I found myself eager to read the next book often. I have not felt that way in quite a long time.
A-
Your Turn
What grade do YOU give the book?
What grade do YOU give Spencer’s Run?
But Wait! There’s More!
There are two backup stories (maybe more) that I am not going to tackle here. Chi-Town will grab them in his review. I felt that no one came here to talk about backup stories. I haven’t read them yet, so maybe I’m making a huge mistake here.
Was It Worth More Than…
This entire run of 74 issues cost you well over $300. Was it worth more than this equally priced electronic toilet seat/bidet?
Well, both are cleaning up crap, that’s for sure. The bidet has a heated seat, adjustable spray, and an air dryer to make sure my cheeks are completely dry. That’s pretty hard to beat. But as I am 50 and there’s a colonoscopy in my near future, I’m betting I just don’t need anything else shooting up in that area, so I think I’ll stick with my ASM run for now. It’s certainly better than the 10 gallons of actual gorilla crap* I could buy, which, sadly to say, I cannot always say is true about comics I have reviewed.
What’s Next?
We have something new coming!
Yikes! It’s like Spencer knew what was coming next. I know that many of you are hesitant to buy into this new Spider-Man Beyond thing, but I’m going to go ahead and tell you this – YOU CANNOT BACK OUT NOW! If Chi-Town, Ryan, and I have to go through it, you better be there with us and commenting right along! That said, here’s a video sneak peak at what’s to come.
Your Assignment
Get into the comments section and tell me what you liked, disliked, hope for the next run, fear from the next run, praise for my quick turn around, condemnation for getting something wrong, ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING!
* I put that in there just for you, Evan and Hornacek.
‘Nuff Said!
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Never mind- I just realized those must have been for the backup stories.
As someone just pointed out on comicbookresources, if you check on marvel.com, Joe Quesada has been added as a writer to Amazing Spider-Man 73 and Zeb Wells has been added as a writer to Amazing Spider-Man 74. Did they really co-write these issues? How much of Amazing 73 and 74 did Spencer write?
@AC
Carlie discovered OG Harry clones and tried to warn MJ, which would have throw a wrench in his plan (whatever it was…). Thats why he kidnapped her.
Clone Harry… I guess OG Harry was jalous that his clone was living the good life? I honestly dont know man.
I realize now that this storyline had more holes than Johnathon Ohnn.
The comments are as much fun as reading the comics, it is just a shame that I am (maybe) understanding the story more by reading the comments than I did from reading the comic, but I have two additional questions.
Why did Kindred kidnap the Harry clone and Carlie? Only for Harry to somehow wonder his way into his house and get his goblin gear, and for Carlie to be a complete afterthought through the finale? Also, can someone explain to me what Harry was mad at Peter for? His last memory was them making peace with each other, it was his dad who traded his soul to Mephisto, and if he had no knowledge of One More Day, I’m confused as to why he’s mad. If it really him inhabiting the bodies of Sara and Gabriel.
Spenser was still miles better than Slott, but i feel like if this run had come after a much more competent Spider Writer people wouldn’t have liked it nearly as much.
@Dark Mark
Woooot my very own no prize! I’ll be able able to hang it next to my copy of amazing fantasy 15!
Seriously though even with that breakdown I am still unsure I understand this mess, and it doesn’t cover half of the plot hole (stromm not being gaunt, whoever buries the body, Ned returns etc.)
It was way too convoluted and, ironically for something that was paced as slow as this whole kindred thing, rushed. It feels like these developments should have come over another 5 issues story arc or miniseries.
While I liked and even loved parts of the Kindred Saga overall (“Sins Rising” and “Last Remains” in particular), I’m not thrilled with its ultimate conclusion. I still enjoyed the issue, but the revelation of Kindred being Gabriel and Sarah Stacy feels completely out of left field and kind of weakens the overall arc for me. In my opinion, Kindred should have just been Harry Osborn. Plus, I’m still not entirely sure why he is so furious at Peter Parker and blames him for his condition. Again, a good story overall, but it feel lacking after all of the great buildup.
If I had the time I’d go back and reread all of the Kindred content from Spencer’s run and see how it reads (or if it makes sense) knowing that Kindred is actually Sara and Gabriel.
I am hoping that someone gives that Gorilla Poop to someone in the annual Christmas gift podcast.
@Sthenurus and @Old Guy
Sthenurus – That is as good a recap as I think there can be! Thanks for taking the time to go back and reread to try and make sense of all of this. I’ve got a golden Crawlspace No-Prize that I’ve been hanging onto for a really special WOW response and you, sir, deserve it. Check you mail box, it should be coming soon!
Old Guy – You are right. The comic should not be so complicated that it relies on the reader to try and figure it out. There should, of course, be plenty left to the reader to piece together as in all great literature, but this just has too many gaps. I also believe that it is one of the reasons many of us are teetering between two grades – there are plenty of readers who like the action, like the character fixes, but feel that something is missing, and until we get to talk and read other people’s reactions, we assume that it must be that WE missed something which is why some things don’t make sense.
@old guy
Ok from what I gather the Stacy twin aren’t really pissed at Peter, they are being possessed by OG Harry who is pissed at Peter.
But I DO agree. No good comic should have to be so open to interpretation and hard to understand. It felt like an arbitrary mean to an end.
Tell me again why the Kindred Twins were so mad at Spider-Man? Executive summary please if that’s possible.
A good comic would not have been this complicated.
Ok, now that the excitation as died down, I reread the issue a few times then the sin rising/last remain and our final arc. I can safely say that my opinion of this big issue went down dramatically.
As many of you pointed out, many things don’t click. From the strange parts, to the AI Harry, to the twins, to Harry’s soul… It doesn’t mesh with this issue. Here is my take on it:
-While Harry died a better man, he uploaded his consciousness to the AI before his change of heart. Around that point he planned the whole thing with the clone to tricked Norman into thinking he was alive (probably to make him suffer) and the whole Gwen Stacey kids (again to make both Peter and Norman suffer). Same with the fake parents.
-Harry dies trying to redeem himself, but the AI is “stuck” in evil mode, so it carries the plans.
-Harry’s soul is being tortured, turning him into kindred. Kindred Being an un-incarnate demon possesses the clones to have a portal to earth. While he didn’t plan for it, he made the best of an opportunity. It also allows him to be at 2 places at once (we saw the 2 kindred coming so the clues were there.). He uses chameleon potion to get his real face back while he possesses the twins.
-Cloned Harry is a decent man because his soul (it was stated numerous times than clone do have separate should i.e. Ben Reilly) wasn’t tainted by Mephisto, hence why he is acting “heroic”. He is the best version of Harry that we got a glimpse at on his last moments.
-sins past happens according to Harry’s original plan. Then OMD happens. Then cloned Harry lives OG (original goblin) life. Then kindred “escapes” hell and start possessing the twin the force Peter to confess his sins so that he wouldn’t end up in hell like him (what sin it is we will never know. Maybe Harry himself didn’t know but assumed he add sins).
-Then this arc happens, free Harry’s souls and therefore destroys kindred. That’s also why the twins seem to have a personality: the possession by Harry’s evil soul is fading so their own personality shines through.
-Strange wanted to know what was wrong with Peter soul, but was sidetracked by Harry’s soul. I think Mephisto tricked him. He never possessed Peter soul so he could only free Harry’s. However strange did get his answer: Mephisto tainted Peter should cause he is afraid of him. So he does know what’s wrong with his soul. But he also knows that Peter’s (and MJ) decent and good nature will never be fully corrupted by Mephisto.
That’s my understanding of it. It doesn’t fill some plot hole (why are Stacey not twins doomed to hell in the first place, who was burying the corpse) but seems to “work with most of what we got”.
The run as a whole was decent. There was some great stories (particularly in the first half of the run) but the ending is bringing it down. It’s an aweful lot like JMS run: amazing beginning, lot of great stories and character work then it all fizzled out by the end with an anticlimactic ending.
HOWEVER I must admit that his run did wonders for the character.
-as chi-tow pointed out in his review, Peter, MJ and the supporting cast got fixed after 10 years of slotts buffoonery.
-norman was cured of the carnage BS
-Kraven is dead again
-Harry is dead again
So on and so forth. As I said before we are mostly at the point around New Avengers beginning (pre the other) except for the marriage being replaced by a strong(er) relationship and may not aware Peter is spiderman (also I think she does know, as I believe it was implied a few time)
So for that I am thankful for spencers run. He didn’t quite stuck the landing, the pacing was meh, but you can’t deny the character work and continuity clean up that was achieved in a third of the time it took his predecessor to ruin everything. While Slott broke was not in need of fixing, Spencer fixed most of what was broken.
Sorry, but that BC article is the poster child of what’s wrong with journalism nowadays. No certain source (“a little asking around”) and speculations passed as facts (or, as in this case, no clear distinction where the facts end and where opinions begin). Apart from not knowing who they asked, it’s one thing saying Spencer’s run was closed abruptly, another is claiming this has always been the intended ending. And not to linger on semantic, but what’s meant for “ending”? Is it how the status quo is now (Harry dead, his soul freed, Peter and MJ strongly together, Kindred and Mephisto defeated) or how we got there? Because the latter is so full of holes I cannot believe any decent writer would willingly write it the way we got it in print.
As for me, it’s not the ending per se that doesn’t click or the fact that OMD wasn’t reversed, but the inconsistencies between all that came before and this last issue. There are no number of stories in-between that could solve all the logical flaws.
Add the fact that (as Mark pointed out) they added Gage as a co-writer (and am I wrong or was the issue delayed?) and I cannot but think we got served a half-cooked meal.
@Mark
No, I get the ending. It’s just it felt anticlimatic (and suddenly quick). Like with the Strange and Mephisto scenes, if it was all a battle of ideals and metaphors, they didn’t convey it in a satisfying manner (maybe because the rules and the stakes weren’t clearly stated from the beginning, or they shifted in-between).
“It could have been better” Heh, it’s becoming my life’s motto. I’m pretty critical of everything, in case it wasn’t obvious by now. :p
@Sthenurus and @Old Guy
I think Marvel doesn’t consider the point.x issues for legacy numbering. So maybe they won’t be considering the .bey issues too.
With the thrice monthly publishing schedule I think they intend to reach Legacy Issue#900 sometime in May 2022 and then again relaunching ASM#1 on maybe June 15th, which is also a Wednesday, you know 60 years since Amazing Fantasy 15 was published.
@Sthenurus
I read the bleeding cool article but I really wish they would cite any sources or people that spoke with this inside information to verify the info.
Did they speak to Nick Lowe or other people involved? I would really like Spencer’s opinion here because I think his will be the most that holds weight. Untill then I cant come to any conclusions.
@Paul Penna, @Jack, and @Sthenurus
Paul Penna – Maybe the Rose is back for the big Daredevil arc coming up. I don’t know about the Ned thing. My thoughts is that clone Ned never got to interact with Betty, so it’s not his kid. But who knows? Your take is just as likely.
I think you hit the nail on the head here – overly complicated. If his aim was to clean things up, then it shouldn’t need us to try and figure out what exactly happened. The further away from this and the more people I interact with about it should make me have a better understanding of all that went on, but it is actually reverse. More and more questions come up and none of them have satisfactory answers. My grade at the time stands because it was my initial feeling and we get those reviews out as fast as we can, but I’m only a few days away from it and the plot holes here are leaking like crazy.
Jack – I did believe that Harry was a demon. We’ve gone through the clues with a fine tooth comb and it just doesn’t add up to what we got. I don’t mind being duped. I actually rarely figure out who the mystery criminal is in movies and TV shows I watch with my wife, but I was paying careful attention to what we were given. It sure seems like someone changed something at the end and Christos Gage being brought in certianly doesn’t help deter that thought (nothing against Gage). I’m trying to read and respond to these comments in the order they were posted rather than read ahead, but I am sure I saw as I was scrolling that someone posted the Bleeding Cool link that suggests this was the plan all along. If that is the case, I wish I had not posted such a high grade. I was willing to overlook some of the execution of the idea if people were meddling with his plots, but to use the Mephisto deal as a red herring? That’s stupid. Take the Madalorian for example. If that final Jedi had been Ahsoka or some new guy, we would have been happy. The big twist gave us something even better and we were estatic. However, if they had hinted it was Luke over and over again, and then gave us Ahsoka, we would be disappointed. That’s what happened here. We were teased with this great idea and then swapped out with this good idea, but since we were wanting the great idea, the good idea just pales in comparison.
Sthenurus – Ah! You were the one I just mentioned in the above comment. Well, I have to say, I want to hope that Bleeding Cool got this wrong because if not, I think I may rather trade in my issues for that 30 pounds of gorilla crap after all.
@Sthernus, @Mark- Having read the Bleeding Cool interview, now I’m wondering if there was some miscommunication between Spencer and the people at Marvel about what the plot was supposed to be and that’s why Marvel insists that this was the story Spencer intended to tell. For example ,in issue 73, it’s clear that it’s Evil Harry’s mind that’s Kindred and the twins are just his hosts. But in issue 74, the twins seem to actually BE Kindred. When I first saw the preview for issue 74 and I saw that Harry was damned because he didn’t confess, I figured that was the reason why Kindred was obsessed with Peter confessing. But there was nothing like that in the story. So I’m wondering if the problem wasn’t editorial interference but that the people are Marvel didn’t understand what Spencer had planned.
@Aqu@
Aqu@ – That whole business of Kindred being the twins but really vessels of the AI Harry, but actually their own beings, but also AI Harry, but in reality they are Mephisto, but Mephisto is torturing their souls between spawns…. yeah, that didn’t make a ton of sense to me either. That CAN’T have been the original plan. This was how the ’90s clone saga read when you had multiple writers who weren’t sure what the others were doing.
As far as the ending goes, my thought on that is Mephisto needs to keep MJ and Peter apart, but when MJ comes to the rescue, they are cemented in stronger than before, so Kindred lost. The only think keeping them from becoming clone flour was Mephisto and he no longer cared to keep them alive, so they just poofed.
The deal isn’t undone, but my reading is that it no longer has power over Peter and MJ. Yeah, I must have missed the daughter part because many people have mentioned that. I need to go back and look again. I don’t know how I missed it.
“‘Well, both are cleaning up crap,’ You are LEGEND. ” I’m putting that on my Crawlspace bio! I hope Chi-Town is paying attention to this!
‘Mind you, it’s not crap, but it could have been a lot better.’ I think that is the one thing about the whole run that is a bit frustrating. It could have been better.
@old Guy
I counted things a little differently but I still ended up at 900 (when counting the .hu , .LR, sinister wars and giant size as 2 issues each)
@everyone
Spencer told his story. Not the way he intended but apparently it was his end game all along. For more info read here
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/did-amazing-spider-man-74-really-end-the-way-nick-spencer-intended/
@Sthenurus re Point.x issues
Wow- you were right on!
Marvel went to Legacy numbering at Issue #789. At that time I found
654.1 and 679.1 and 699.1 (3 issues), and 700.1 to 700.5 (5 issues) in Volume 2 of ASM
also 16.1 to 20.1 (5 issues) in Volume 3 (Spiral)
and 1.1 to 1.6 (6 issues) in Volume 4 ( Amazing Grace)
This is a total of 19 point.x issues that were not counted in Marvel’s calculations
.
Slott’s What If mini-series Renew Your Vows never should have been counted so that is 5 less for a net change of 14 at that time, so issue #789 should have been Legacy issue #803.
From the Spencer run we have
Hunted had (4) .HU issues, and Last Remains had (5) .LR issues for a total of 9 more which means Marvel’s Legacy Issue #875 counting only point.x issues would be 875+14+9 = #898
We can throw in the two Giant Size Amazing Spider-Man comics: King’s Ransom and Chameleon Conspiracy since they didn’t have any reason to exist except to finish their respective storylines. These additional (2) comics bring the adjusted Legacy number of the Comic-previously-known-as-875 to Legacy #900. Precisely!
If I had needed them I would have included the four Sinister War comics since they only existed to complete an ASM storyline, but they weren’t actually titled Amazing Spider-Man so they are sort-of more like a Spider-Man story that is continued into a Black Cat comic. Besides, I didn’t need them. If anybody knows of issues I missed that should be counted, let me know.
Since it could have been Issue #900, Peter should have proposed !
Thanks for both the no-prizes guys !!
@Sthenurus: you’re right, we’re almost back at JMS era, except for the marriage (but we may be going there), the totemic power-ups (maybe I’m the only one missing those) and, most importantly, May knowing the secret identity (a very important character progression).
@Micheal: ok, now that I’ve read the comments, I see you actually discussed pretty much the same point I did. Sorry for not reading that earlier and being redundant!
For the AI: it may as well be as you say, but to me is absurd, unless they showed it was created with techno-magical means and\or tied to Harry’s soul.
@Adam: ah, good point. So Quesada was an agent of Mephisto all along! LOL
@Old Guy: If you prefer an original Marvel no-prize, instead of the Crawlspace cheap copy, here, take your no-prize. I snagged a couple of them from Marvel’s offices when the editorial department was distracted (so I had plenty of time). I took one for me, too.
@Sthenurus
You bring up an interesting point re Point.xx renumbering
You could save me some time here, if you happen to have a handy listing of all the Point.xx issues of Amazing Spider-Man. I’ve got them stored all over the place, some with the main run, some as mini-series, and some as stand alones. I am going to find them all and give them their own special section.
@ac, @Old Guy, and @Michael
ac – I’m stinking with my higher grade because my first read was enjoyable, but the longer I get away from the first read, the more and more irritating the gotcha or the editorial switcharoo become. The coolest thing here is the environment we have. We can all disagree with each other and see each other’s point without it being a have to prove you wrong. I like that. I can see your D. I am betting that if I waited to get the review out, my grade would have been lower (it actually dropped while writing the review). And if history teaches us much, then I agree that the dangling subplots will probably disappear. I guess preggo Betty will have to be dealt with, but Chameleon and Norah, the Rose, and others will probably never be resolved. I am betting that Spider-Man’s death and repeated resurrections must have been an illusion. Otherwise, it makes no sense if Mephisto needs Peter dead or for Peter and MJ to never have the child for him to keep bringing Peter back to life. Though, Sin-Eater and Mysterio were brought back to life so Kindred has that power. Uggh! See, that would make me drop the grade again!
Old Guy – If the ends justify the means, then I’m with you. We didn’t get there int he cleanest of fashions (for whatever reason), but in the end, the Sins Past is done, Harry is fixed, and Peter and MJ are stronger than ever. As far your no prize goes, I have a box of Crawlspace No Prizes I found in the attic of the Crawlspace staff beach house. I’m dusting one of these bad boys off and sending it your way! Consider yourself No-Prized!
Michael – Oh yeah! Before reading the issue I had made a mental note to talk about how the gizmo was going to be used. That was something set up early and surely Spencer had plans to use it other than just to split Lizard. Why was Task Master hired to steal it?
@Adam Tomlinson and @Evan Berry
Adam – I’m right there with you on needing a good B title. Mephisto’s Realm, I’d even like to see a C title. Amazing Spider-Man for flag-ship story telling, PPTSSM for more down to earth and supporting cast, and Friendly Neighborhood to fill in the gaps, maybe some good one-shot stories that still fit into canon. They can loosely flow together (especially with supporting cast plots), but nothing too interconnecting. That throws ASM back on one a month and we can get artists who have enough time to get the work done without bringing in a slew of back up artists and inkers. As for your issues with the issue, Strange’s turn to suddenly not care about Peter’s soul and willing to risk his own soul for Harry was odd. And it turns out that it WAS about Kindred was all along, I guess. Forget original art, I want my hands on a copy of the original script and pitch. Like you said, if nothing else, this at least confirms Peter and MJ should be together and hopefully that will continue to be the case when the next few writers take over. But, alas, I do fear that Marvel’s lousy with Mephisto agents. I respect the Mephisto’s Realm out of your B grade! I am sad to say that I have not given Non-Stop Spider-Man a chance. I’ll have to rectify that since you are giving it such praise!
Evan – I can’t say that I did notice any particular differences between the two Kindreds. At one point I do remember thinking about which was which and then deciding that I didn’t care enough as they were being written interchangeably. I think is they were the original plan all along, then there would be a distinction in character voice that we should have been able to pick up on. But no contest needed. We should just go back to the original contest and see who the runner ups were – which was Sarah and Gabriel. Well, I don’t guess that really fits now… OK, third place was Stan and Steve! There we go! Crazy Town and Banana Pants along with Stan and Steve. You know, I wrote a letter to the editor trying to get that published on your behalf and they never published a letter’s page after that. I wonder if we broke them?
It feels like editorial stepped in, but you know, it could have been Spencer’s Gotcha all along. He could have easily just had Strange and Mephisto say something direct rather than dance around the deal and Peter Parker for months (well, now I am doubting myself – did he say specifically Peter Parker’s soul at some point?). Maybe we are being too hard on Lowe and this was what Spencer wanted all along, but it sure feels like someone made a change.
Ahh! I forgot a stinking FANBOY comma! Oh the ignominy! At least my students don’t read my reviews! If it were an Oxford comma, then I would have to quit in shame and never show myself on the Crawlspace again. 🙂 I really should have proofread. Thanks for helping!
Love your A. A. Milne allusion! We need to find out once and for all – who is in charge of onomatopoeia creation? I’ll have to put in some research on that.
@Aqu- Regarding the AI,I think we’re supposed to assume that the AI was only evil because Harry’s soul was in Hell, and now that his soul is Heaven, it’s just a benign AI.
@George, @Spidey Fan, and @Mohammed
George – Dude, I spent an entire afternoon doing it, but my friend Delmo and I managed to finally destroy it. It takes a lot of rocks and determination. At the time I was so proud of it and was not ready for my mother’s ire!
Spidey Fan – I’ll bring those back, but it is sure nice to hear that it is a feature that works. The review was going to be long enough as it was and I wanted to get it out that night. I am betting that the whole I know something about you thing will be tabled and avoided for a long time until some other writer decides to come along and pick things up again. I have a feeling that the majority of what we just read will be ignored, especially since the focus is going to be on Ben rather than Peter. I imagine they are playing a round of Boomerang trivia to honor him at the Bar with No Name as we speak.
Mohammed – Agreed. Not so bad to warrant dropping it. We got some things straightened out and other things not to our liking, but all in all, a good book. I think this book suffers from not meeting expectations. If there hadn’t been so many hints at the deal, then we might look at this book in a much better light all around, but as it stands, disappointment to varying degrees. Luke Skywalker at the end of Mandalorian was cool because we were not expecting it and we got something awesome. However, if they kept teasing Luke and then gave us Ahsoka instead, then despite liking Ahsoka, we would have felt cheated. That’s what happened here. To make matters worse, it feels as if editorial betrayed Spencer, which may or may not be the case. That is, I feel, what is really causing people to be down on the book (the ones that are, that is).
@Michael and @Geoff Castro
Michael – Those are ALL great points and something I struggled with when reading the issue and writing the review. The first time I read it, I enjoyed the action and felt a little off with the … oddities. The second time I read it while writing the review, I didn’t enjoy it nearly as much because those things that didn’t make sense to me were glaring. I try not to read Discord or other reviews until I get mine out so that I don’t copy (intentionally or unintentionally) other people’s thoughts and brilliance. So I wasn’t sure if it was just me looking for problems since the outcome invalidated my predictions or if they truly didn’t connect somewhere. And I’ll be honest, my memory and understanding of the Stacy twins was never strong, so I felt that it must be me that was missing something. I will only disagree with you on one thing – Harry. I think that this story does Harry justice (with the exception of Norman selling Harry’s soul). Harry died his great death as originally written and his clone (wherever he came from) wrapped up the final redemptive acts needed. This way the stories that came between Harry’s death and now are all still canon and intact AND Harry has not changed. But that does say a few things about Stanley that could be developed further.
Geoff – Thanks! I try. I always assume there is something I missed and I like it when I didn’t enjoy an issue and the comments make me rethink it and enjoy it more. It does certainly feel like someone changed something and I do hope Spencer is able and will talk about how things ended. I certainly felt that he was aiming in one direction and the rug got pulled out from underneath us. Whether Spencer was on that rug with us or the one pulling it I guess remains to be seen. I can see editorial not wanting to reinstate the marriage, but to not even mention the deal after all the build up seems like a big middle finger to fan base (and maybe to Spencer as well). I know Brad has been trying to get an interview with Spencer from day 1 to no avail. My theory on that is that Chi-Town met Spencer at a signing for issue #1 and got him to hold a Crawlspace sign. I figured if that was Spencer’s only experience with the Crawlspace… well, I wouldn’t blame him. 🙂 Here’s hoping that BD finally gets that interview!
Mark: Do you also think, along with many on the Discord thread, that Kindred was Hell-Harry (based off verbal clues Kindred himself gave throughout the story), and that Kindred’s identity was abruptly changed at the end (maybe even as late as this issue)? I don’t see how anything Kindred said about himself could apply to Mephisto, or Gabriel, or Sarah. I also have the impression that Mephisto had Harry trapped and was tormenting him, where veeeery early on in the story something was said about Kindred fighting and clawing his way up in Mephisto’s ranks.
BTW, the preview for Amazing Spider-Man 75 came out today and Harry’s death is mentioned. I wonder if they had to change issue 74 to fit in with Beyond. For example, if Beyond had Peter dealing with Harry’s death and Spencer’s version of issue 74 had Kindred and Harry Lyman merged using Curt Connors’s gizmo, then issue 74 might have been changed so Harry died.
Mark I respect the hell out of your B+. I think the issue is somewhere in the B/B+ range for me. I’d give the run overall an A- probably.
Lots of unanswered questions from the run. My guess is that someone else asked Spencer to bring back the Rose. As for Betty’s baby, I’m pretty sure he was fathered by the Ned clone who died at the end of Slott’s run, so he is Ned’s kid, but this new Ned is an imposter.
Onto this issue. I’ve thought for a while that a clever explanation for Mephisto’s motivations would be to erase Peter’s kid. I thought Ben from the MC2 universe would be a good choice, since technically speaking May had already been born, but Marvel has made the argument before that if Peter and MJ had not been married, that MJ would never have become pregnant. So, I guess May was never born, and now her soul either resides in limbo or Mephisto’s realm.
Okay, so the argument here is that the Harry AI created the Stacey twins on orders from Harry before he died, and that they were intended to be used as “vessels” by the AI. Presumably they were put in Norman’s care, and the intent was that the AI would use them later.
The AI seemingly also created the Harry clone, as it used Mysterio to set up a fake origin of Harry surviving his death. Presumably this too, would’ve served as a “vessel”.
Then, when Harry became a demon in Hell, he took the name Kindred, and used the bodies of Sarah and Gabriel himself, rendering the plans of the AI moot. Previously evil Harry was in control of both Sarah and Gabriel’s bodies, but then during this confrontation, Mephisto removed Harry’s presence, maybe as he was using Harry’s soul as a bargaining chip with Doctor Strange.
Harry had no use for his clone, except to use as a decoy.
What doesn’t work here is Sarah and Gabriel always being clones. Yes, the ones here are, and previous versions have died, but they still would’ve needed to be cloned from someone. Which means Harry would’ve needed to get hold of Norman’s sperm and a couple of Gwen Stacy’s eggs. The best suggestion I can make is that Norman put some of his sperm on ice and that… well… maybe Harry tracked down Joyce Delaney and harvested some of her eggs, because I don’t see how else he could’ve created two individuals who were genetically her children otherwise. And then, after their birth, they age accelerated, died, and were then cloned. And, of course, we’ve seen that another Sarah and Gabriel clone are each currently being grown.
That means that Norman didn’t sleep with Gwen, but that Sarah and Gabriel are still their children.
I still don’t think the explanation really works. The timeline doesn’t add up. But for now, I guess this is the best explanation we can hope for. What a way to end your run though, right? Instead of a big finale, you get this overly complicated and unsatisfying retcon. There was someone good stuff here, but ultimately, it felt like the issue was just trying to fix problems which didn’t need fixing.
Once again I’ll read the comments another time, so bear with me if someone else already stated what I’ll write.
“There’s must be some way out of here. There’s too much confuusiooon.” once sang a Cylon.
I’m confused because a lot doesn’t make sense. Spencer must be confused because it seems not even he knows what’s going on in the issue. The artists must be confused because in one panel the brown Kindred has boobs, so is Sarah (and I think that’s coherent with last issue), but when it gets hit by a centipede the purple one calls the brown one Gabriel.
First, let me try to make sense of the mess. I got to this after reading the issue, like, three times.
So Harry Lyman is a clone. Ok. But how does he know he created Gabriel and Sarah (from now on G&S)? Let’s assume for a moment that Harry’s damned soul is in this cloned body (created by the AI, I presume), courtesy of Mephisto that let him walk the Earth again without some of his memories, only to let them flow in his mind again for this last trial to Peter Parker.
Harry himself says G&S are vessels for the version of him UPLOADED before his death. So they are vessels for the AI. How? I suppose that’s where Stromm comes in and besides being organic clones, they also have some kind of interface for the AI to control them directly. That explains their behaviour as Kindred and why they believe themselves to be Harry (last issue Sarah told MJ to call her Harry).
However then Norman speaks to them as if they really were G&S and (what’s worse) for the whole issue they act like they actually ARE. The only way this would have made sense was if they showed Norman pulling the plug of the Harry AI, ending its control over the twins. Instead the AI remains an unresolved plot point (and a dangerous threat, all things considered!).
To further complicate matters, we have Mephisto telling us that G&S were born and died again and again and each time they suffered in Hell… This has no sense at all. Even assuming they aren’t soulless puppets, but their own persons with a soul their own, why would they go to hell???
We also still don’t know whose are they clones (Harry and Gwen?) or who buried their corpses every time.
So, now to the review.
I felt the ending was underwhelming with the Kindreds disintegrating just because Mephisto lost his bet. After all those punches (and beatings Peter has taken: really he should be in hospital after all this) it was a cheap ending.
Strange is really useless, he just stands there watching and then leaves. I get that it was meant to be some kind of mystical confrontation, but they really failed on that part. I also don’t think the deal was undone (and it couldn’t be any other way, since as Mephisto said, Peter and MJ agreed to that voluntarily), but its effect of preventing the marriage (see below) is being surpassed.
Surely someone else already pointed that out, but I think you read it wrong Mark. Mephisto, in his account, tells Strange he is afraid of Peter because he’ll end his reign on Earth (as a hero). But he lied (as Strange notes): Mephisto is afraid of Peter and MJ’s DAUGHTER, who will end his reign. So he meddles whit their relationship to prevent her birth (and succeded for now with OMD).
“Well, both are cleaning up crap,” You are LEGEND. 😀
The issue was ok-ish. Beside the senseless mess, it finally ended and on a good note too. However the whole run was not all that good, all things considered. And I didn’t even expect the marriage to be reinstated. Not only the pace has been all over the place, but with these last story arcs I have a big feeling that a) Spencer didn’t know how to go on and how to put an end to it; b) there has been some kind of interference, editorial or not; or even both.
Mind you, it’s not crap, but it could have been a lot better. I don’t give grades, but it’s a bit more than mediocre for me, with some highlights (like Hunted).
I am relieved that Gwen Stacy did not have an affair with Norman Osborn.
Beyond that, I had hoped for more, but on reflection Marvel had its hands tied regarding The Deal with the Devil. Logistically, they couldn’t go back and erase it saying that Peter and Mary Jane had been married all along, given that there have been 331 issues spanning 14 years Earth time – what was all that – a dream sequence?
So The Deal was made to erase the marriage. Peter and Mary Jane agreed to annul their marriage in exchange for extending Aunt May’s life. Nothing apparent in that agreement that should affect the souls of Peter or Mary Jane. The Spider-Girl explanation explaining Mephisto’s motivation was clever.
Much has been made about a possibly SINFUL connotation to Peter and Mary Jane’s part of the original agreement, including speculation about a few controversial panels in the original One More Day comics. The Spencer run certainly used the word “sins” a lot up until the very end. This is quite a sticky wicket, and politically Marvel could not afford to go there on any level. Peter and Mary Jane needed to remain free of a sin controversy. The decision to have this storyline end ignoring that possibility, with Peter and Mary Jane happy together, possibly marrying at some future time and being the parents of the Spider-Girl destined to bring down Mephisto, is the only practical decision that could have been made.
I am pretty proud of myself for guessing that Spider-Girl would have something to do with this saga, but as far as I know nobody is giving out no-prizes anymore.
Mark, I always enjoy reading your opinion, but this time, I’ll have to respectfully disagree. This issue was a D, and that is even generous. I don’t think Spencer wrote it. The whole issue seemed disconnected from even recent issues, much less the events in the last three years, (Michael explained them all brilliantly) and it read to me like someone else stepped in, skimmed through the last three years of issues briefly, and then wrote the story with no notes from Spencer. And i just get a feeling that all the dangling subplots are just going to be forgotten with new writers, but maybe I’ll be proven wrong.
All in all, found it greatly disappointing. Too many contradicted or unexplained story elements. And one other thing, The sequence where Kindred killed and resurrected Spider-Man over and over again… I always wondered if that was some sort of illusion, that Kindred wasn’t as powerful as they seemed. but then, we never really knew what Kindred’s abilities really were,
P.S. — I forgot to mention that when reading that comma-lacking sentence I referenced below, I kept reading “save” as meaning “excepting,” so the mental images that was conjuring up is what gave me pause. I thought, “Wait, did I just read what I think I read?”
Okay, sorry to harp on that — I just forgot to put that in my initial comment.
@Mark — Wonderful review! Yes! I’d never thought I’d be so happy to see gorilla crap.
Did you notice that the Sarah Kindred was looking characteristically female in this issue? In past issues there was more effort to conceal any — err, dimorphic — differences, but I guess they needed the reader to distinguish between the two. Does this mean there are two more centipedes to name? Should we have another contest?
I am kind of disappointed that one of the “reveals” was that the deal being discussed between Strange and Mephisto regarded Harry and not Peter and Mary Jane. That’s like Spencer’s own “Gotcha!” to readers, and it makes me kind of sad. It makes me think of J. J. Abrams for some reason.
(Mr. Spencer, if you’re reading this, I don’t mean to insult you, I promise!)
At least Lyman knew he was a clone the whole time (I suppose). As interesting as it would be to see how he learned that and the fallout that resulted, given past events in the mid-nineties, I’m kind of glad all that was skipped. Yep — it’s nice to know there will be no more references to the Clone Saga in the near future. Ahhhhh.
Also, I hate to do this, but I think you’ll appreciate this. The lack of a comma before the conjunction in the following sentence made it difficult for me to tell which were the object(s) in the first clause and which were the subject(s) in the second clause:
“The Kindred twins tear into Norman and Harry and Peter save his sorry rear end.”
That “save” was plural helped me figure it out, but I had to read it three times. Just sayin’. Clearly your brain was frazzled not only by the stunning revelations it was trying to process but also the attempt to record it all in a coherent manner. (Yay, look at me — I’m helping!)
I’m honestly glad you’re writing this review and not me — Apart from the onomatopoeia (Spencer gets an A++ for that), I wouldn’t even begin to know how to articulate my attempt to reconcile so many questions and answers and speculations over the past 74-plus issues, so thank you for this. I have just assumed, many times, as you conceded at one point in this review, that the confusion lies on my side — either from missing a detail in my reading, lack of sufficient Spider-man knowledge or memory for historical events, or simply because I’m a Berry of little brain. In other words, it’s always validating to hear that others are puzzled or otherwise have questions. Hence why I’m looking forward to move onward to the comments!
Thank you again to you and to everyone at the Crawlspace!
Just finished reading #74/875 other than no proposal, it wasn’t that bad, I mean there still things that need addressing, like all the OMD teasing and why Norah is working the Chameleon.
But it wasn’t done so bad that it would warrant me dropping it.
and in regards to some saying Mephisto won, I don’t think he did. Mephisto wanted to destroy Peter and Mary Jane’s relationship and from what I read in ASM #74, he failed their bond is now stronger than ever, as Strange puts it “Unbreakable”. and this cements Peter and Mary Jane’s relationship, so much so that it will be much more difficult for Marvel do anything about it. so I really do see something happening in the future
@Sthenurus and @Prof Warren
Sthenurus – I have no idea what Marvel’s thoughts are with numbering. You are right, they could easily have had this as a 900th issue. Who knows. I’m glad you liked it and liked the run as a whole. Judging by the poll, people are all over the place on this one from A to F. Like I said int he review, I liked most parts of it and some parts left me scratching my head. I plan on staying with these reviews as long as I have you guys with me! These things take too much energy and time to do if I don’t have y’all along for the ride! I do Cobwebs because it’s fun to research. I do the reviews because I love reading your and the others’ reactions!
Prof Warren – I liked the run much more than you did, but I get your reaction to it. There were several times I thought we were going to get something and it just didn’t happen that way or it happened so slowly that the impact fizzled out. Kindred, in my opinion, would have been much more effective if it played out the first year of stories rather than lasting quite so long. I blame Lowe for not controlling the pacing a little more. For that matter, he may be the reason it got dragged out. I know the clone saga in the ’90s was dragged out because of editorial. Here’s hoping the next run will be just as good (for me) and better (for you)!
Thanks to both of you for the kind words on my review! I’ll get to the other comments soon.
First, what are all you guys doing here? The party is over at Non-Stop Spider-Man aftershow. That’s a book that knows how to stick a landing!?
Mixed feelings on this one.
I’m happy that things like Norah, Jonah, Ned/Betty have been left open. Another writer can pick those up if they want. Amazed Jonah still knows Peter’s identity, to me that she’s him more than his relationship with MJ. The Ned thing did seem to be hinting at a Paris connection though. This is why we need a true B-title that can pick up loose plot points, instead of …well, head over to Non-Stop Spider-Man to see the sort of B-title we do have.
Things I’m not convinced we’re wrapped up and should have been:
“What is wrong with Peter Parker’s soul”
Doctor Strange just gave up on that completely. Can Peter use the Hand of Vishanti know. This is not the satisfactory finale of a deal with the devil story. Peter and MJ have escaped the deal and don’t even know it was made.
“It’s not who I am, it’s what I want”
It’s definitely not about who you are, as this seems to change issue to issue. But what you wanted was Peter to confess his sin…which was?
Overall I don’t think Spencer’s run lives up to the promise of his first arc, which is still my favourite overall. I think his run lost something during the Sins arcs, that it never recovered from. Though on this way out Spencer did give us one parting gift;
Any time a future editor decides to break Peter and MJ up, we can call them out as being agents of Mephisto. Clearly they don’t want Mayday to be born and slay their lord and master. So if an editor invents a new character to flirt with Peter or MJ, agent of Mephisto. Anytime one of them gets a job offer too good to turn down, agent of Mephisto.
Not the ending we want, but such is comics.
Hey Mark great review. But I did miss your what passed and what failed. Anyway not the greatest question but what happened to MJ’s premiere, like will anyone promote the movie (will people even watch it?) or will MJ have to struggle with the bills (as we see Pete will be hospitalized). And for that matter is Mysterio still going to tell them something he knew about them( Sinister War 1?) Or is he along with all the other villians lying unconscious in NY streets or are they all in the bar with no name mourning Boomerang. (Probably the latter as Spidey wouldn’t be swinging with MJ if he saw a pile of villians below)
Legit, Tonka Trucks were indestructible.
Okay, so first off, I don’t care how the math comes out. I didn’t want the stupid backup stories at the end and I didn’t care about them, so no matter what percentage of what I paid they account for I still think I was ripped off.
I knew from the day Spencer’s exit from the book was announced that something was off. It was just too abrupt. And this is not a satisfying conclusion to his run. I like Kindred being Gabriel and Sarah, I really do, but this was supposed to resolve OMD, and it didn’t. I’m completely willing to accept that that’s what Spencer wanted to do and editorial ultimately blocked him, but it also doesn’t matter. That’s the implicit promise that was made to fans from the beginning of this run, and Marvel didn’t deliver.
Overall, that means I give this issue a D. I can’t give it a passing grade. Because again, we were implicitly promised a resolution to OMD throughout this run, and now it’s come to an end without delivering on that promise. Cannot give that a passing grade. Yes there were some good aspects of the issue but ultimately it just let us down. I’m very glad Spencer reunited Peter and MJ, for as long as that will last. But I can’t really give him credit for much beyond that, because whatever he fixed doesn’t really matter as long as OMD stands. Sins Past was a bad idea and never should have been allowed to happen but the fact it was reversed doesn’t mean anything while OMD still stands. So it’s finally happened: Marvel has lost my money. This is the end. I don’t care what happens after this. I’m never buying Spider-Man again. It’s been too long, and I’ve been strung along too much. They won’t get a single dollar from me from this point forward. It’s been a great run, but here’s my farewell to Spider-Man world. We’ll always have the classic stories. Best to you all.
And the biggest question- what happened to Peter’s proposal?
For starters, is Ned Leeds real or is his another one of Harry’s and the Chameleon’s tricks?(Note that the mansion he described seemed to be the mansion where the final battle this issue took place.) And if he is real, who was his mysterious benefactor?
Second, what happened with Jonah and his search for a new hero? Peter suggested it might lead to trouble but nothing came of it.
Also, whatever happened with the Chameleon’s involvement with Norah and Threats and Menaces? Nothing came of that.
And did Spencer have any other plans for the Rose after resurrecting him? (Note that one of the Sinister War covers featured the Hobgoblin and the Rose, and another featured Peter getting attacked by pumpkin bombs, but we saw no evidence of this in the actual storyline. More evidence that Sinister War was rewritten.)
Overall, I think Spencer’s run left many Spider-Man characters in an unusable status quo. Harry is now ridiculously complicated and dead, Liz and Normie are saddled with the baggage of having unknowingly lived with a clone of Harry, Norman’s been stripped of his evil, we don’t know if Ned is real or fake, good or evil- and Betty, who knows what her baby is.
Great review Mark! I’m glad that your always fair and balanced with your review.
For me personally, I am emotionally disappointed and upset with this final issue.Major plot points weren’t addressed and ultimately skipped over. I cant read this and not thing that editorial got involved and changed alot of what the orginal story was meant to be. I feel like this is in complete and the promise we got that Peter was going to propose was washed away. ( Those last panels by Ranos indicate that he was going say it then but Marvel eliminated the dialogue) we dont get to see the character we grown with get any love or resolution to their arcs. And the whole mephisto connection seems consulted and needed more issues to be explain.
Anyone getting Roger Stern- Hobgoblin vibes here?
I m upset that Marvel editorial probably got involved and ruined this 3 year story with so much build and have the nerve to promote their next thing.
D-
I really hope Brad gets to interview Spencer and he can explain his original story or explain because this is incomplete 🙁
I had a lot more issues than you did with this ending. So let’s take this one at a time:
Kindred’s identity- the weird thing is that not only does it not match the clues from earlier, it doesn’t match the earlier issues of Sinister War. In Amazing 71, Mysterio flashes back to encountering Harry in hell, and Kindred recalls how he died in the ambulance with Peter holding his hand. (Incidentally, that’s one reason Harry couldn’t be the AI- the AI would have been uploaded before Harry died, right?)
And in issue 73, Kindred- Sarah explains to Mary Jane that the twins aren’t real and that Sarah is just a vessel. But in this issue, the twins are treated like the personalities behind Kindred and the twins are surprised to find out they aren’t real. The twins literally went from “possessed by Evil Harry’s mind” to “being Kindred” between issues and I think Gage had something to do with it. (And even weirder, one line of dialogue this issue continues the “vessel” explanation.)
Clone Harry- I was completely confused by this. Who cloned Harry? Was it Norman or the AI? One scene last issue implies that Mysterio brainwashed Norman into thinking Harry never died. Was Mysterio doing this on his own initiatives or on Mephisto’s orders? And either way, it’s hard to see what brainwashing Norman into thinking Clone Harry was the original was supposed to accomplish, other than misleading the reader.
The entire sequence with Mephisto and Strange was another scene that seemed like it changed between issues. In Sins Rising, Strange leaves before finding out that Harry is Kindred or that the original Harry is still dead- he’s mostly concerned about what he saw in Peter’s soul. In Sinister War1 , Mephisto and Strange are arguing about PETER’S soul. But in this issue, Strange seems to have forgotten about Peter’s soul and seems solely concerned with saving Harry’s soul. How did he even find out Mephisto HAD Harry’s soul?
I don’t think the deal is undone. Judging from Strange’s dialogue, the deal is still in effect but it only served to drive Peter and MJ closer together.
Re: the twins having souls for Mephisto to torture- it’s canon in Marvel that clones sometimes have souls- for example we’ve seen several Ben Reilly stories that hinge on him having a soul. What’s weird is Sarah going to Hell without having done anything wrong.
I think you’re misinterpreting the future scenes. Originally Mephisto tells Strange that he was worried Spider-Man would destroy him. But then we see another future scene, and there’s a woman in a spider-costume. In other words, Mephisto was lying. It was Peter and MJ’s DAUGHTER that was fated to destroy him. That’s why he broke up Peter and MJ’s marriage.
There’s more evidence that things changed from an earlier plot. In previous issues, it seemed like Kindred had some agenda beyond simply killing Spider-Man. But in this story, Mephisto says Kindred’s purpose was to kill Spider-Man. Which makes no sense, as you pointed out, since Kindred brought Peter back to life after killing him a few times.
Morever, this issue left several questions unanswered:
First, what sin did Kindred want Peter to confess? Mephisto mentioned that the twins blamed Peter for not saving them. Was that it? (But in issue 57, he said that Peter and Norman had BOTH forgotten their sins against him. That makes no sense if it was the twins saying that- Norman’s sin, as far as they knew at that point, was killing Gwen.But if it was Evil Harry in the driver’s seat, why would he say that Peter did this to him?)
Secondly, Mysterio said in Sinister War 1 that he knew a secret about Peter and MJ (and Mephisto) that was responsible for what was happening. What was that? That Peter’s and MJ’s kid would kill Mephisto? Why would Mephisto trust Mysterio with such knowledge?
Also, in issue 71, Mysterio says that he saw Kindred less and less as the years passed? Why did Kindred leave Mysterio alone?
Norman seems not to have regained his evil side at the end of this story. Will he ever get it back?
Also, what happened to Mysterio? At the end of Sinister War 4, Ock renders him unconscious, and then he vanishes from the plot. Was he freed when Harry’s soul was released? Or is he still bound to Mephisto?
Lowe doesn’t seem too eager to credit Spencer on the letters page. However, the weird thing is that Lowe claims that Beyond was first planned in December 2020. It doesn’t seem like Spencer knew that he was leaving, however, since he kept dropping hints for unresolved plot lines for several months after that. (And his Substack assignment was first announced in June- could it have been kept secret for several months.)
Overall, I can’t wait for an interview with Spencer where he explains his plans and whatever editorial meddling occurred.
Spencer’s run left a lot of unanswered questions. There were a few from earlier in his run. (cont.)
Glad you enjoyed it, Mark. My own feeling is just one of relief that this run is over and we can now move on. I think it’s very clear that the back end of Spencer’s run was subject to behind the scenes issues, keeping it from reaching a satisfying conclusion. What those issues were, we’ll probably never know but sadly this run, in my opinion, just didn’t live up to its promise.
Great review mark! Glad to see that even though Spencer run ended, yours didn’t 😉
I’m very confused as to why marvel didn’t make this issue 900. It could have if all the .XX giant sized and minis were actual ASM issues. We have the death of a classic character (redeath?), The conclusion to a major arc and a HUGE statu quo change.
I personally liked this issue. Seeing may as the destined one to bring down Mephisto was awesome. The action was great. The characters were believable. And that ending with Pete and MJ… Beautiful!
Spencer’s run, to me, was good. He was able to do major house cleaning and damage control while making a (mostly) entertaining run. We are pretty much back to the mid JMS era Spidey ,(post morlum/Ezekiel, pre sin past) which was -i believe- the highest point for modern Spidey story. As you said the only problem was the pacing, which was very too slow at time, too fast at other.
I also liked the fact that everything was logical, since we pretty much pieced everything together as a group long before the actual reveals (2 kindred, Harry Lyman being a clone, the Stacey’s “children” being kindred etc…) To me it’s the proof of a great storytelling. Nothing came out of nowhere.