OK folks, some of you forgot to check your syllabus – this is required reading for our advanced level Spider-Man course. Get with the program, you Crazy Crawlspacers! Now, let’s get down to an issue titled “The Sins of Norman Osborn” which, surprisingly, doesn’t have Matt Murdock driving Osborn to Clinton Church for confessional.
Credit Where Credit Is Due
Story Title: The Sins of Norman Osborn
Writer: Nick Spencer
Artist: Frederico Vincentini (Maybe? Apparently from Chi-Town’s last review I’m supposed to know when the credits page is lying to me? You know what, let’s just say that Todd McFarlane drew this issue.)
Colorist: Edgar Delgado
Letterer: VC’s Joe Caramanga
Cover Artist: Ryan Ottley and Nathan Fairbairn
Asst. Editor: Kathleen Wisneki
Editor: Nick Lowe
Published: September 16, 2020
Remedial ASM 101
Kindred has Sin-Eater (a newly powered one at that) going after Norman Osborn. Spider-Man feels like he must go and save Norman and Madame Web has assembled anyone with ‘Spider’ in their name to stop him.
The Story – Pay Attention, This Will Be on the Test
Madame Webb convinces the clutter* to all join in to save Peter Parker. She calls them the Order of the Web, by far the stupidest name ever conceived for a hero team (I could be wrong and am going to resist my usual urge to go and research – I’ll leave that up to you guys to tell me names of actual hero groups that is worse). At that time, Sin-Eater has a flashback revealing that he cleansed Martin Li, a.k.a. Mister Negative, so now he can mind control people too. Meanwhile, Spider-Man and Norman are arguing about their roles in this so-called rescue when Norman leads Spider-Man to his old cell which has been converted into a new Green Goblin lair. Norman reveals he has a secret weapon in a vault that Kindred can’t beat – The Juggernaut! Unfortunately, Kindred has gotten to him first. Spider-Man and Norman decide to team up in the next issue in order to defeat Kindred.
New Feature!
Confounding Captions
Well, then, you can forget considering it since you can’t buy one anywhere.**
That wasn’t Peter’s dream? Then whose dream was it? It wasn’t the other spider heroes’ dreams because we saw those. And if Peter isn’t dreaming this, then how does he know who Kindred is when Norman mentions him? How about we just say that Peter’s not the only one dreaming. How about that, Spencer?
The Quick Assessment
The Dream – Gwen’s dream shows a silhouette of Spider-Man’s killer in a bit that looks quite a lot like Who’s That Pokemon? It appears to look like Ultimate Green Goblin, but Neil has assured me that he’s tied up in the Miles comic right now (though if Miles is here…). Apparently, they all had the same dream, which you would think is the one they had in ASM a while back since that is what we were told, but instead it is quite different from that. Each person also sees a dead Peter Parker in a different place and Madame Web says it’s Norman who does it, but she’s a flat-out liar because she sees Kindred doing it, not Norman Osborn – unless that goes to say the split Norman/Green Goblin theory is correct.
Sin-Eater Power Set – Now he has Mr. Negative’s powers and potentially the powers of the Juggernaut, but since we didn’t see a smoking hole in his armor, I’m assuming that he was able to repel Sin-Eater’s blast. Also, according to Marvel Fandom, Juggernaut lost his powers in the “Threat of O.N.E.”, but as I hate all mutants, I never read that. Nah, I think we are going to have Juggernaut now as a rouge factor running around like a bull in a china shop***
Ashley Kafka – Yes, she’s alive, and no, this wasn’t something that was done just for this arc. She was killed by Massacre because of no good reason, then she was brought back as a true clone in Clone Conspiracy, but died due to clone degeneration. Then Osborn, in the Ravencroft series, discovered a second clone of her that survived. Only a few people know that she is a clone.
Norman’s dialogue – Spencer nails it. Ouch. Just Ouch.
Deal with the Devil – That’s TWICE in as many issues that Gwen references a deal with the devil. I’m sure Chi-Town is about to burst out of his skin over that one.
The End of Sin-Eater – Anyone else thinking that Sin-Eater is going to eventually turn on Kindred? I think Kindred is going to stop him from killing Norman or something and Sin-Eater is going to have had enough and turn on him. Sinny’s too powerful. You are going to need Kindred to put him down. Or maybe, one of the Spider-Heroes will grab the shot gun, shoot Sin-Eater and then be all powerful for a little while.
Final Grade
It wasn’t bad and continued to set things up. After last issue, I was ready for the big show, but this just feels like an extra step, sort of like when you think you are at the bottom of the stairs and surprise! There’s one more.
B-
Next issue’s got to be big – Kindred, Green Goblin, Sin-Eater, Juggernaut! But don’t worry, there are more Spider-Heroes than villains, so in the end, all should work out ok.
* A herd of spiders is called a ‘clutter’.
** Editor’s Note – As seen last review, natch! – Disclosing Douglas
*** Actually, bulls are quite careful in a china shop.
‘Nuff Said!
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@ Grant – Freex? Is that the team with Sweetface? Ok. I’ll grant you this one. Grant you. Get it? Heh heh!
By the way, The Order of the Web is infinitely better than the group Freex
@Aqu – That’s an interesting blog! It seems that he stopped updating it a few years back. He is listing out different types of Spider-Man/Venom/Spider-Girl/etc. which is a little different than what I am doing. I am combing the multiverse for every version of Spider-Man (mostly Peter Parkers, but there are others). I am currently on earth-18451 and am stupidly providing links to the comics you can read them in on Marvel Unlimited as well. It should be coming out in a Cobwebs sooner or later. Maybe I’ll have to do it in chunks.
JJJ. Hmmm… I was leanign more toward Steven Ogg (the guy who played Simon on _Walking Dead_ and Sobchak on _Better Call Saul_.
Madam Web! Ha! Holy crap. I said any reveal could be a good one if written correctly, but you are making me pull back on that statement!
@Mark: cataloguing every Spider-Man from every alternate universe? Someone already did it for you (kinda): https://jimmacmain.wordpress.com
Also, I’m baffled that no-one noticed the striking resemblance of the first “negativized” Ravencroft guard to the one and only JJJ.
And I’ll say it only once: Kindred is obviously Madame Web. The first one.
@David Bylth – I hope you are right. I don’t want there to be a division caused by that and so far Spencer has not gone to the everyone-is-so-angsty-and-cannot-have-relationships mode that so many superhero writers rely on, so there is hope that it will be a bump in the road, but they will come out of it stronger.
I don’t think knowledge of the marriage would ‘tear them apart’, I think something will get in the way, don’t get me wrong, but I also think Peter and MJ will find a way to survive and stay together by the end of Spencer’s run. At least that’s what should happen. I don’t want a repeat of JMS’s run, which has some of the strongest Peter/MJ stories, only to be ended by OMD. Spencer’s run I feel is on the cusp of being regarded as a truly special thing, and yet another Peter/MJ break-up is just going to taint it. After reading decades worth of the newspaper comic strip, Renew Your Vows, and MC2 Spider-Girl, there is no way you will ever convince me Peter and MJ will ever give up on the other.
@Spider Web – No it wasn’t. I’m a bit perplexed why it wasn’t pushed more or numbered like you suggested. I don’t remember seeing it listed as the next issue to read, but others did, so I guess it was probably my fault.
@Chi-Town – Yeah, Spencer is making too many references to the marriage for it not to play big in the future, presumably It tires into Kindred’s arc. I still don’t think that it will be undone, but I think it will be addressed. However, it might get bright out into the open and that drives then apart. I hope not, but that is a potential possiblity.
This single issue “spin-off” is not skippable. They should’ve just called it ASM #849.1 or something.
“That’s TWICE in as many issues that Gwen references a deal with the devil. I’m sure Chi-Town is about to burst out of his skin over that one.” I will damn it! It’s too obvious! C’Mon! Good review Mark and I love how Julia states “Why the big secret? Let’s just tell him” Madam Web “That’s not how it works, here’s why blah blah blah”
Translation: ” There would be no thrilling story to tell if we went that route.” I’m glad Spencer acknowledges this. It’s like he’s saying “Yeah I know, but I got a really good story to tell, so just play along”. Which I’m all for btw, just glad he acknowledges it.
@Evan – I’m currently putting my Credible Hulk compulsive researching nature to its limits with a Cobwebs I’m working on to catalog every Spider-Man from every alternate universe. I’m too far into to it to turn back now, but trying to glimpse into EVERY earth in the multiverse was absolutely stupid on my part.
And I don’t know what connection Chi-Town has with the spider office. What’s he up to now, 15 letters or something? And we’ve only had like two letters pages. I remember a Groo (and kudus to you if you remember Groo!) issue where they devoted a whole letters page to one guy who had sent them 25 letters. I imagine that is Chi-Town’s goal. And good for you not calling him ‘Petey’. If the guy doesn’t want to be called ‘Petey’ then I’m all for us not calling him ‘Petey’ and I would never, EVER condone or support readers from this review to go over to Chi-Town’s review and post a comment in which they use the name ‘Petey’.
Ezekial! Ha! I should have had a contest to see who could have come up with the WORST reveal for who was behind the vault door.
@Jack Brooks – It doesn’t explain why Juggernaut is there. I figured that it might be explained in #850, but Gabriel might be right on that mini series.
I’m a little skeptical of Madam Web. I meant to throw something into the review about that, but she knows about Kindred, but told the League of Lesser Spiders that Norman is the killer. So she’s misleading them (cue Saw Gerrera shouting “Lies! Deception!”) for some reason. I don’t think Madam Web’s motives are entirely kosher.
I think that the Spider Friends are following Web more because of that dream of Peter’s death rather than loyalty or devotion to her.
Yes, the NuYou clones are supposed to be the actual resurrection of the character’s soul, but the NuYou clone for Kafka degenerated and this is a second clone, but I am not sure if it is supposed to be a full NuYou or not. What I read in Marvel Fandom is that they had to fake her blood work so that John Jameson would allow her to work for the new Ravencroft institute. Apparently we should have read the Ravencroft series to fully get the big picture here. Since this happened in Ravencroft series, I don’t think we can direct our praise for undoing her death at Spencer, unless he had some say in the plotting of that series.
I am glad that Spencer isn’t wasting pages recapping the Ravencroft series. I hope he doesn’t recap this issue in 850. I’ll be pretty pissed if I paid $5 for this one only to have it repeated in the next comic that I have to pay $10 for, but I don’t know how someone who went from 48 to 850 without reading this issue (or at least a review of it!) will be able to follow it right off.
Jack
“Does it explain why Juggernaut is in there? ”
Seems like Juggernaut will have a mini series coming soon. Probably will explain it.
@Mark — Hey, you don’t have the Credible Hulk as your avatar for nothing. And this is comic books, so you have every right to be skeptical until we have actual evidence that it’s not Ultimate Green Goblin, no matter what Chi-Town and Neil say. Though, to be fair, Chi-Town has some sort of connection with the Marvel Bullpen, as we all know. (And, look, Chi-town — I didn’t call you Petey!)
Wasn’t it David Hume who said, even though we’ve never seen one, we can’t assume that a white crow doesn’t exist? Actually, I’m not even sure that’s relevant to this conversation other than to emphasize that it’s valuable to be skeptical.
At least it was the Juggernaut back there, and not someone like Ezekiel or something.
Does it explain why Juggernaut is in there? Was Kindred linking a Madam Web prophetic dream into Peter’s mind? Why exactly are the Amazing Spider-Pals intervening? Do they all know Web, that they would just up and do whatever she said? My subscription ran out, so it’s off to Google for me… Yay for Spencer undoing another Slott gratuitous (and stupid) character-kill-offs. But didn’t Dr. Strange establish that the NuYou clones were the real people? I.e. Billy Connors actually has Billy Connors’ soul, back from the dead, So this is the “real” Ashley Kafka, not just a Miles Warren-type dupe.
@Evan – Nah, no OOTI because I was being lazy and wanted to do a short review (though I think it turned out as long as the others).
No Stegron – we need a POWERFUL villain, not some D-lister (Good thing George probably doesn’t read my reviews!)
Sin-Eater shooting himself. Hmmmm. I didn’t consider that one. That would be interesting too! It would hard not to make it look like Kraven, but I’m sure it could be done well.
This took me by surprise too. All of a sudden I’m getting messages from Chi-Town and Bogenreider saying, “Well, it’s not Green Goblin,” and “I guess we know whose in the vault now.”. And I’m just responding, “How do we know that?” like a chump.
@Mark — I love the new Confounding Captions feature! But it just occurred to me that there’s no OOTI this time around. Maybe because there wasn’t any onomatopoeia at all. At any rate, when I saw that silhouette, I thought it resembled Ultimate Green Goblin, as well. Some people are going to be pretty mad at Neil if it turns out that’s who it is. I guess George can always hope that it’s Stegron.
Something I was thinking about when you speculated how Sin-Eater would be taken down: (a) What if he shot himself? (b) What would happen to his powerset if he did that? Maybe it would be like two mirrors facing each other or lead to some kind of crazy paradox or something.
In all honesty, I always thought The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was a stupid team name. But “The Order of the Web” sounds like something from Dr. Strange. Fitting, I guess, though Juggernaut didn’t mention the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak at all.
This review was a surprise for me, since I wasn’t expecting an issue until #850, so thank you!
@Gabriel – Head of the class, sir. I don’t remember that name reveal. In my mind he only encountered Kindred in his dream that wasn’t his dream. Next time I’m running my review past you before posting!
@William Sinclair – I was shocked as well. I was ready for this to be a recap of Norman’s life and all the stories he’s been a part of to make a case that he is a bad guy, but if you don’t read this, I imagine you are going to be a bit lost in #850. Comixology didn’t automatically put it in my queue and if I wasn’t writing for the Crawlspace, I doubt I would have even noticed this issue. Well, that and the fact that Chi-Town and Bogenreider kept messaging me trying to spoil the vault ending for me. 🙂
I was also ready to complain about Kafka, but I looked it up before writing it. Thank goodness! Editor’s captions would be very much appreciated.
“That wasn’t Peter’s dream? Then whose dream was it? It wasn’t the other spider heroes’ dreams because we saw those. And if Peter isn’t dreaming this, then how does he know who Kindred is when Norman mentions him? How about we just say that Peter’s not the only one dreaming. How about that, Spencer?”
So, I re-read the ASM #44/845 when we first saw that dream, and I find a interesting quote of Kindred :
“I’m sorry that had to be this way. And I’m also sorry for the dirty tricks . I mean, a dream within a dream? What a cheat. But hey, If it’s any consolation… it wasn’t your dream”
When Kindred said that last part, what appear is the face of the Madame Webb. And in this issue, the dream that Madame Webb said that she had is the same dream of the issue 44/845, check out.
About how Peter would know about kindred, Peter know that name since the issue #24/825
“Peter : *Wake up screaming*
MJ: Pete?! Hey, Hey, it’s okay, just a nightmare
Peter : No…No, it wasn’t, MJ
Peter : I should’ve told you–
MJ: Told me what?
Peter : Back in the park, with Kraven. I saw something. Some kinda, I dunno…a vision. You were there . You were– Something had happen to you.
MJ: Okay, well, whatever you saw– I’m fine. Nothing Happened to me.
Peter : I Know that. But– There was someone else there. And I just saw him again.
MJ: Who was it?
Peter: I don’t know. But he just… spoken to me. He told me to call him…
Kindred : Kindred”
I was pretty shocked that important stuff happened here, I was expecting this to be a totally disposable aside. Really, this felt like it was a proper issue of ASM, I wonder if they just gave it the ‘Sins of Norman Osborn’ title to keep the #850 numbering for next time.
I really *really* loved all the dialogue between Norman and Peter, it feels like it’s been ages since they’ve had some truly fleshed out interaction, and I look forward to seeing them fight together next time so we can get more of it. I was shocked to see Kafka brought back, and was ready to complain about Spencer doing it in such a throwaway manner, but then I realised it must have been explained in the Ravencroft book. Like with Osborn being head of Ravencroft, I would have appreciated a caption explaining it, but hey, it’s nice to have her back. Juggernaut being behind the vault door wasn’t a bad reveal either, I guess Spencer will throw in some homages to Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut in addition to all the other homages to classic Spidey stories he’s been doing.
Can’t wait for #850, this was a nice appetiser for it, hopefully it can live up to all the hype.