Spider-Man is unable to fight the Red Goblin, but that won’t stop Peter Parker! Or will it? Read this issue to find out how Puny Parker can take on someone as powerful as a goblin-serum/symbiote-enhanced Norman Osborn. Then read this review and give your own grade to the book.
The Devil in the Details
Story Title: Go Down Swinging: Part 3 – The Ties that Bind
Writer: Dan Slott
Penciler: Stuart Immonen
Inker: Wade von Grawbadger
Colorist: Marte Gracia
Letterer: VC’s Joe Caramanga
Cover Artist: Alex Ross
Editor: Nick Lowe
Published: April 18, 2018
Remedial ASM 101
Osborn has the Carnage symbiote and used it to rid himself of the nanobots Parker created to prevent him from ever being the Goblin again. After a thorough butt whooping, Peter Parker gives up being Spider-Man to save the ones he loves, but vows to take down Norman as Peter Parker.
The Story – Pay Attention, This Will Be on the Test
Not taking Norman at his word, Parker has enlisted other heroes to protect the ones he loves. Torch protects MJ, Miles protects Aunt May, Silk protects everyone at the Bugle, Agent Anti-Venom protects JJJ, and Clash protects Harry and family. Liz, Harry, and Mark track down the kidnapping Nanny, but in doing so, leads Norman to the children as well. Here we have two revelations – Emma, the kidnapping Nanny, is only trying to protect the children (I called that!) and she is really Harry’s mother and wife to Norman Osborn (totally did NOT see that coming!). Everyone fights the Red Goblin BUT Spider-Man and they all go down rather quickly due to the fact that merging symbiotes with goblin formula makes one rather invincible. Peter decides to abandon his vow to not be Spider-Man and enters the fray too late. Flash, as Agent Anti-Venom cures Peter’s leg. Meanwhile, Norman kidnaps Normie and turns him into Mini Carnage.
What Passed:
There was a lot I liked in this issue. After such a great story last issue, I was concerned that too many heroes were going to come in to save the day for Spidey. Using the heroes as protectors for his loved ones was an appropriate use of them. The only thing about having them in here that rankles is the overuse of other heroes in this book in previous issues, but I try not to allow those factors into my grading of the current issue (not always an easy task).
The 1984 fan in me loves that Liz Allan chips her kid! I coupled the image with a meme one of my students made for added effect.
Clash – While I did not care for his origin issues, I do like the way the character has progressed since then. The fact that he wants to be a good guy, but has accepted that he isn’t hero material, is an interesting contrast when done correctly. This is a good panel for him.
For once the Miles venom sting didn’t work. I guess we can tell that Bendis really is gone. Plus, I have it on good authority from one of our resident Miles experts, Grant, that Miles is acting in character in this issue.
The Goblin stole the show this issue. His banter was funny and he was constantly attacking. Constantly on the offensive. This is one of the most active paced issues that Slott has written. The only I didn’t like about the Red Goblin is the look, but that isn’t too much of a distraction for me.
OOTI (Onomatopoeia of the Issue)
On a scale of 1 (POW) to 10 (BLRKBQRKPQRBLNB), FWUMMK rates an 8. What’s not to like? It’s nigh unpronounceable – go ahead and try saying it out loud wherever you are. Plus, I like the word balloon – Who’s got a kiss for Grandpa!
What Failed:
This is a minor nitpick, and I am trying to appreciate the inclusion of MJ lately, but for this character to act offended, even if facetiously*, that she is only “near” the top of his loved ones list after the way their relationship has been shown didn’t feel like two people joking together. It just felt off.
The art, as always with Immonen, is good, but there was one panel that made me pause. When JJJ confesses to his screw up (shows how far this character has developed over the years), his face looks like the skin grew two sizes that day (much like the Grinch’s heart).
Which made me think of Norman which led me to waste too much time making a new GQ cover:
Analysis:
My worries ran high with this one. The last issue was so good, but the preview cover art showing so many heroes made me worry that this was just going to be a “someone-else-saves-the-day”. There were many heroes to be sure, but they were used in logical ways. If the Goblin is coming after your loved ones, it makes sense to put a protection detail on them. Making sure you have both fire and sonic-based allies when fighting symbiotes was also a smart idea (I was wondering where Clash was during the Venom Inc series). So I felt these heroes were put to good use and Slott has the Red Goblin make quick work of them which would show how tough he is and validate Peter’s toughness when he takes him down (alone, hopefully).
What brought this issue down was how useless Peter Parker was. At the end of the last issue, he’s vowing to take down the Goblin as Peter. I was ready for that battle. Instead, he is relegated to “The Man in the Chair” – basically the MCU’s Not-Ganke. So what does fighting as Peter Parker look like? Bringing in a bunch of other heroes to do your job for you.
I might would hold out hope that next issue we’ll really see what Peter Parker can do, but before the issue ends, he’s already donned the suit. So a great idea, but fizzles out in the execution.
There were some interesting twists. Emma, the kidnapping nanny, wanting to protect the kids was pretty well telegraphed (I mean, even I figured it out). Emma being Grandma Osborn, the wife of Norman, the mother of Harry – well, that I did not see coming. It doesn’t floor me. There was no build up to the Osborn matriarch that makes me go Wow! and there was never any intriguing story about the mother (in my opinion), but it is interesting. I am curious to how our very own Mad Goblin will view this.
Normie as Mini-Carnage is pretty much how I think Norman would react. He’s always been a family man and little Normie is the sort of bad seed that would carry on the family legacy.
The Goblin is getting overpowered. Sonics and flame are no longer weaknesses and the only thing that seems to be able to hurt him is Anti-Venom, but it appears that the Anti-Venom suit is no more. This means that next issue, something has to be done. Red Goblin isn’t going to limp away and go into hiding. This is the final stand. Either both Carnage and Norman die, or Norman finds a way to kill Carnage (maybe because the Carnage symbiote that he believes is under his control kills someone he doesn’t want killed, like Normie, Stanley, or Harry). It is doubtful that Peter is going to be able to do what needs to be done, so I’m seeing another self-sacrifice a la Doc Ock.
Crawlspace Odds
Well, the arc keeps teasing that someone will die, here is a comprehensive look at the official Crawlspace odds on each character’s chance of death:
Human Torch – Disney just paid too much money to get the movie rights to FF, so we can say with nigh certainty he will survive. Crawlspace Odds – 1%
Aunt May – To much effort has been made to undo her death and to keep her alive. They are not dropping her here. Crawlspace Odds – 5%
Carnage – Can you even kill it? Crawlspace Odds – 10%
Mary Jane – No doubt that Slott would love to be the one who killed MJ, but Marvel also knows that she makes too much money for them (the recent variant covers prove that). Crawlspace Odds – 15%
Miles Morales – Bendis is gone and the title has gone on a hiatus – due to death? Crawlspace Odds – 20%
Flash Thompson – He’s hurting and maybe has already lost his Anti-Venom powers, but that wouldn’t stop this knucklehead from trying to be the hero. Crawlspace Odds – 20%
Silk – Dan Slott has been going through and undoing everything he’s created, so this would be the perfect time to put her down. However, she a female hero and Marvel doesn’t want to look sexist…again, so that improves her chances of making it through. Crawlspace Odds – 40%
Robbie Robertson – He’s been brought back into the forefront lately and is a beloved member of the Spider supporting characters. Crawlspace Odds – 50%
JJJ – This would solve the whole “he knows” issue. But is he too much a part of the establishment? Crawlspace Odds – 60%
Clash – Here’s a Slott creation that can be taken out with no fear of sexism or discrimination. Crawlspace Odds – 75%
Liz Allan – She dares to take on Norman? That puts her in a difficult position – plus this would satisfy a temptation to kill a beloved Lee/Ditko character. Crawlspace Odds – 75%
Harry Osborn Lyman – His death at the hands of Carnage might would distract Norman enough for Spidey to get the upper hand. Crawlspace Odds – 85%
Normie Osborn – Would Pop Pop kill his favorite grandson? Maybe. Maybe Carnage will take over and do it for him. Crawlspace Odds – 85%
Norman Osborn – To be the one who killed the Goblin for good so that his will always be the last story. That is a temptation that I’m sure tantalizes Slott. Crawlspace Odds – 85%
Stanley Lyman(?) – This kid is the obvious favorite of Harry. Normie may even be the one to kill him, thus driving him further into madness. Crawlspace Odds – 90%
Emma Osborn – She might as well be wearing a red shirt here. Crawlspace Odds – 95%
Hugo the Security Guard – Prediction – Hugo, somehow using the hand that Agent Anti-Venom reattached, goes down in a blaze of glory, being the key to the good guy’s victory – Crawlspace Odds – 100%
Extra Credit:
Under the NEXT image, Marvel asks for your opinion. The exact wording is: “Let us know how we’re doing! SpideyOffice@marvel.com – Mark Okay to print.” So, True Believers, you have your marching orders. If you get your letter published, I expect to hear from you!
Final Grade:
This issue was both good and disappointing at the same time. A weird mix following the great previous issue. The promise of Peter Parker taking on the Red Goblin fizzled out, bringing this grade down some from last issue, but it does not dissuade me from wanting to read the final installment, so
B-
Your Turn:
What grade do YOU give it?
What’s Next?
THE MONUMENTAL ANNIVERSARY ISSUE IS HERE TO CONCLUDE “GO DOWN SWINGING!” Dan Slott and Stuart Immomen are joined by many of the artists who made the last 10 years of Spider-Man so Amazing! The biggest Peter Parker/Norman Osborn story of all time unfolds over one oversized story, a scope unmatched in comics! Who lives?! Who dies?! And what scars will Spider-Man bear from here on out?!
$9.99????? Crap. Brad, I’ll be sending my receipt for this one to the Crawlspace office for reimbursement.
Also – Neil and I aren’t going to hog all the glory for #800 – There will be a FlipGrid set up so that you can do your own 90 second video review. All you need is a web cam and you’re set! Can’t wait to see your reviews!
* Fun Fact – Facetiously is the only word to have all vowels (including y) in alphabetical order.
‘Nuff Said!
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@Know-It-All-Vic – you’re right – once he boats about how much he knows, he can be held responsible for copies like this. I retract my previous Slott apologetics.
@Mark @Alex Evangeli – I, too, like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but didn’t Slott brag about his vast knowledge of Spider-Man’s comics history? If he’s that much of an expert, shouldn’t he remember these things? (Unless he’s borrowing it on purpose to make it look like this story might lead into the Spider-Girl universe, with the leg-bombing, and everything – as pointed out in the previous issue’s discussion. But if that were the case, he should’ve also known that whatever plans he had were going to be spoiled by solicitations for following issues, right?)
To Jack and Alex
@ Jack – I would think she would be around if Slott were to be the writer longer, but as it seems he is wrapping up all of his loose ends, it seems doubtful that he would leave her for Spencer to use. That is what is odd about the revelation. As far as the tee heeing goes, there has been a shift of late to make the villains more of a comedic voice. It’s not just here. I’m assuming it is the influence of the MCU on the order of things. I think it is relevant to like or not like these changes. If Goblin lasts long enough, I bet he’ll be back to brooding.
“I kind of doubt Slott would kill Normie or Stanley — I can’t see TPTB approving child-killing in ASM. ” I think they would. I don’t see both kids surviving this run. I don’t know about the Torch vow. I haven’t heard it, but I’m not a FF expert.
@ Alex Evangeli – Whenever I think something was ripped off, I remember an excerpt from a book by Peter David where he says the ideas are all out there and you may use it not knowing someone else already did. Slott does like to borrow from Doctor Who, so maybe he borrowed these from Amazing Spider-Girl, but maybe also they are coincidences. I try to be optimistic in these cases. As long as the story is good, I don’t mind if it is a re-treaded idea. I guess next issue will make it worthwhile or not.
To Paul, Know-It-All-Vic, and Joshua
@Paul – Yeah, if this were happening without the end of Slott’s run coming up, I would expect it to have long lasting consequences, but as we only have two more issues of his tenure, I doubt that we’ll get a pay off worthy of bringing this revelation in. However, the next issue’s a biggie, so maybe he has something in store for her that will make it worth while.
@ Know-It-All-Vic – As much as I like odd theories, I have to draw the line at ANYTHING that invokes the ’90s robot parents!
@ Joshua – I enjoyed it too. It wasn’t perfect, but enjoyable. The poll seems to reflect that as well. I checked it this morning and there are 20 people who gave it a B or C and only 8 people who gave it a D or F.
How unoriginal is this story?
It’s so unoriginal that it’s ripping off THREE DeFalco/Frenz Spider-Girl stories at one.
a) Normie Osborn ascends as a new Goblin. Check. See Spider-Girl #0.
b) A ‘Kid Carnage’ is created by part of the Carnage symbiote breaking away and bonding to a minor? Check. See the second arc of Amazing Spider-Girl.
c) Norman Osborn powers up to God tier levels via symbiosis? Check read the finale of Amazing Spider-Girl.
And yet who wants to bet none of these ideas will be executed half as well?
P.S. Didn’t Johnny used to have an ethical rule that he wouldn’t directly burn anyone?
Doesn’t this abrupt introduction of Emma Lyman imply she’ll be around for a while? It seems weird to introduce her, then bam, she’s dead one issue later.
Does this issue depict the Goblin differently from “Goblin Nation”? I.e., is he not a tee-heeing Joker? The Goblin I remember from my collecting days was sadistic and brutal, and didn’t have any sense of humor.
You know you can eliminate Peter, Torch, Miles, and MJ from the D.O.A. list. Probably eliminate Aunt May, Robbie, and Jonah. I kind of doubt Slott would kill Normie or Stanley — I can’t see TPTB approving child-killing in ASM. There hasn’t been enough dramatic build-up to kill Silk. Clash seems too unimportant, and besides, Slott created him, so there might be money to be made in the future if he ever gets used again.
I would like for them to kill Norman, because I think Marvel has used him up, and he’s got nowhere left to go as a character. But I doubt it.
My money is on Flash, Liz, or Harry, and maybe throw in Mark Raxton (Normie’s uncle), especially if he turns back into Molten Man. I can see Slott killing Flash, with all the prologue build-up of Flash being “the real hero.” It would fit Slott’s rotten habit of making Peter look weak. I expect Normie’s parents to intervene, and at least one of them to pay the price.
Other than the incredibly awkward and out of nowhere reveal that Emily Osborn is still alive and the nanny, I quite enjoyed this issue. Myself and many others have been complaining about other heroes constantly needing to save Spider-Man’s bacon for quite some time now, so it was nice to actually see said heroes get their clocks cleaned instead.
What if – bear with me here – grandma Osborn is actually a robot devised by Otto (while in Peter’s body) for some kind of “revenge” against Harry, who had the robot parents come in during the 90s?! Speaking of the 90s, we can badmouth them all we want (and deservedly so), but we all now that revelation would have *at least* been the last beat of the issue, in a splash page with Norman facing her and everyone looking dumbfounded around them. It’s exactly the same problem the first ASM movie had: you kill Uncle Ben in the beginning, then late in the movie you also kill Captain Stacy, suddenly diluting the power of Uncle Ben’s death, and carrying only one of them into the next chapter.
The Emma is Emily Osborn twist is clever… however, I don’t think returning her from the grave is a good idea. And I doubt Slott will have much time to develop the idea.
I mean, how she died has always been a bit murky. But why would she return now? Why not come back after Norman originally died.
If she is a New U clone, well, that works. I could get onboard with that if she did die and has literally been returned to life. But the idea that maybe she has been out there, alive, the whole time? I don’t buy it.
It feels off. Yes, technically you could make it fit with continuity, but she feels like a character who should have died an ordinary death.
Her death is one of the things that makes the tragedy of the Osborn family feel grounded.
Lol I forgot about the banana pants, thing. Your ASM reviews are excellent.
@ CrazyChris – Is this THE Crazy Chris from ‘Crazy Town Banana Pants’ fame? I was the guy who started making – er – finding those old panels where he said that with you.
Good points, all of them.
1. I try not to hold previous issues against these because if I did, I would constantly hate these. I agree that it is fair to do so, but for my own sanity, I try to take them one by one. I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but it gets me through these.
2. The build up to her reveal made me think she was going to be a Alison Mongrain character. The switch it like that gives it no extra benefit. Maybe next issue will pay it off, but I’m not counting on it, and I don’t care. I’m hoping for 30 pages of Goblin vs Spider-Man fight scenes. I won’t get it, but I can hope.
3. Normie as a Red Goblin felt pretty natural to me. Again, I don’t like the visuals of it, but the fact that Norman would want his favorite grandson to take over the family business seems to fit past versions of the character.
I am holding out great hope for Spencer. He got burned on his Hydra Cap run, so I’m betting he is going back to simple and fun comics, like his Superior Foes and Ant Man run. I’m hoping, at least.
I give this issue a solid D. I have no significant pros. My cons are the following:
1. The fight was pretty boring. The point was to build up what a badass Red Goblin is by having him toss around a bunch of heroes, but I was just never convinced that there was any real peril. And I actually think it WOULD be fair for you to hold it against this issue that Spider-Man has taken a back seat to other heroes in too many recent issues. This is serial storytelling, and the past issues absolutely play a role in how enjoyable the current issue is.
2. The revelation that Emily Osborne is alive is almost tangential to this issue, and since there are only two issues left in Slott’s run I doubt her storyline is going to be done any real justice. For all we know she’s just a leftover New U clone.
3. Normie as a Carnage-Goblin is one of the stupidest looking things I have ever seen in a Spider-Man issue and as a result I have no anticipation for the next issue.
I have some hope for Nick Spencer’s run, but the “back to basics” approach pretty much never works, so I am skeptical. I am definitely ready for Volume 4 to end. In my opinion it at least gets into the semifinals for worst Spidey era ever.
To Chase the Blues Away and Know-It-All Vic
First, let me add something here that I just remembered to put in the post: Also – Neil and I aren’t going to hog all the glory for #800 – There will be a FlipGrid set up so that you can do your own 90 second video review. All you need is a web cam and you’re set! Can’t wait to see your reviews!
@Chase the Blues Away – The Emma reveal was stumbled a bit. I think the “Not in one place” command was about the loved ones. He didn’t want MJ, Aunt May, Harry, etc. all in one place. As far as why didn’t they help Liz and Harry get the family to safety, well, I think that has more to do with the fact that these guys aren’t team players (with the exception of Torch, and he was one of the first to fall) and Peter is just not a natural team leader. They fell apart on the field.
@ Know-It-All-Vic – I had forgotten all about the blood she took! Maybe she was getting some Goblin formula protection made that was tailored to their DNA or something, although that seems like a stretch. I wonder if the identity of this character was changed mid-story? I’m nigh-sure that Slott will provide those answers for us next ish!
OK – anyone out there have a prediction on what the kids’ blood was taken for?
William, PeterParkerFan, and Evan –
@ William – I agree – there have been too many rushed jobs here that make it feel like that Slott, the Master Planner, was not ready to wrap this up quite so quickly – the rushed Zodiac ending, the no build up to the wife of Norman, the hurried “Man” aspect of Spider-Man. He claims that he had 801 planned all the way, but I just don’t believe it. The leg healing is minor to me, but I agree – what was the point of the injury?
@ PeterParkerFan – I didn’t mind the heroes getting their butts kicked so much, but I’m there with you on the Peter Parker’s role being a disappointment. The more that time goes by, the more it irritates me, but I’ll stick to my grade since it more accurately reflects my first impression.
@ Evan – I wish this had an audio component so that I could hear you yelling ‘Fwummk’! As far as your Hugo idea – from your fingertips to Slott’s eyes, friend. I’m all on board!
Well, now I’m kinda curious (not necessarily in a good way) about those vials with the Osborn kids’s blood that nanny/grandma Osborn took a few issues ago. Also, she’s gotta be pretty good at covering her tracks if the (likely) background check conducted by Alchemax security didn’t figure out who she was. It hadn’t bothered me as much that Peter taking on Osborn as “the man” wasn’t better followed up with this issue (I did, however, majorly disliked the “man in the chair” line, because it made me think of “Ned” from Homecoming, and I cannot stand that whole character), but after reading the review, I got a bit disappointed, too. Damn it, Mark! Moving on to art, this one felt a little rushed at places. Almost like the team did their absolute hardest in #798 and, knowing #800 would be even bigger, they slowed it down here. But it’s still a pretty solid issue, head and shoulders above most comics. I’d give it a B, but the final page, with Normie as a little goblin was so creepy and disturbing that I’ll bump it up to a B+.
Another D.
Emily Lyman Osborn could have been a cool character to introduce – but she’s just another one of Slott’s action figures randomly plugged into the plot because he needed to put all the characters into one spot. She could have been Alison Mongrain or Random Redshirt Nanny for all the impact the revelation had on the plot or the characters. Also, kinda hard to believe she wants to protect her grandchildren when she left Harry with Norman all these years, or could have come back at any point for Normie and/or Stanley during Norman’s other rampages. And if this is her goal, why not just tell Harry, “Hey son! Guess what?” But that’s the kind of thinking that needs to go into creating characters that think and act like human beings, and Slott can’t play that game.
And speaking of all the characters in one place: what does Peter tell his Amazing Friends not to do? Don’t all be in one place. What do the Amazing Friends do? Gather in one place. It’s as if Slott is so bored with this story and just wants to move the action figures around as it suits him, he can’t keep one page of his script consistent to the next.
Also, if the plan is to protect Peter Parker’s loved ones, then, um, why aren’t the Amazing Friends actually doing that? Like, when one hero is attacking Norman: the others should get Liz, Harry and company to safety! But no, let’s all job one after the other to ridiculously overpowered CarNorman because that’s the only way Slott knows how to write a fight: power up a previous character to previously unheard of power, ignoring all world building, have the heroes immediately fail, rinse and repeat until suddenly a deus ex machina or coincidence allows Peter to “win.” It was boring during Superior, it was boring during Spider-Verse, it was boring during Zodiac, and it’s boring now. The only good news is that this only has one over-sized issue to go before Norman trips and breaks a nail and decides to give up, or whatever similarly disappointing ending Slott has in store.
Help us, Nick Spencer. You’re our only hope. Well, you and whatever writers will inevitably come after you.
Great. I’ve been sitting here saying “FWUMMK” for five minutes. I have confirmed that it’s pronounceable, but I’m not so sure about my job security.
Regarding issue 800, I was thinking maybe, after Slott has Norman defeat Spider-man, Hugo the Security Guard will show up with his new laser cannon hand and take Norman out himself.
This issue rather boring. I did NOT like seeing all those heroes getting their butts kicked by Carnage-Goblin. Also, Peter was mostly useless.
D
The fact that Peter puts his suit back on so quickly after saying he’d fight the Goblin as the man kind of makes me think this arc was meant to go on longer and they had to rush some plot-points after it was shortened at the last minute. I’m also disappointed that Peter’s leg got healed before the final showdown, how suspenseful would it have been to see an injured Spidey go up against such a powerful foe? To be fair, I guess it’d be stacking the odds a little too much against him, given how over-powered the Red Goblin seems, but the ending of the last issue now seems pretty pointless.
The nanny being Emily Osborn felt incredibly random to me, no idea why Slott decided to throw it in so close to the end. After reading JR’s intriguing speculations about her relationship with Norman, I feel a bit annoyed to see her come back in such a sloppy way when there could’ve been a lot of dramatic potential had it been done well.