Annoucements From the NY Comic Con 2014 Spider-Verse Panel

51 Comments

1. @49 Our study shows: either side of any argument will try to show that any available stats either prove their point or are somehow “not reliable”.

2. @#42- I remember the exact same thing happening, but just in reverse. When people were bringing up the sales after BND, I remember plenty of people coming out and saying the figures didn’t matter. Yes, I do remember those that claimed that the sales were incentive to fire the entire creative teams. But I also remember those that insisted that the numbers didn’t prove anything, that there were always other factors, and that the book was really way more popular and successful than it appeared.

   The issue I have with those latter fans is that, now, when sales have improved, they are quick to insist that NOW the sales show that the book is a success. Before, we couldn’t trust them and they aren’t representative of the fanbase. But NOW, the sales are an accurate representation of the fanbase, that we can trust them, and that there is nothing else that could bolster or alter those numbers.

   That’s what frustrates me. The hypocritical stance of “We can’t trust the numbers” when the sales aren’t stellar, but the “Those numbers prove everything” when the book is doing better. Either we can trust the numbers, or we can’t. Either the numbers don’t represent the customer base, or they do. These fans don’t get to have it both ways. To me, it’s less about caring about the sales figures, and more about ignoring evidence that doesn’t support their view that the book is doing great, there are no problems, and it’s just a small number of vocal fans who are turned off.

3. @#39-ASM V3 has been released in between Superior and Spider-Verse and in the wake of the ASM2 film, which stars Peter Parker, Electro and is called ‘the Amazing Spider-Man’, all things which apply to the comic itself (at least recently). Ramos and Slott have a fanbase whcih has grown over the course of Superior who will follow them. ASM has had a multitude of variants. And it has a heavily promoted launch which includes a new #1. Is it any wonder it has increased sales?

4. Again, though, it is their job. I feel like painting Marvel as liars because they say “These comics are exciting and we think you should buy them!” is a bit knowingly contrary. What else are they going to say? “Yeah, guys, we know this is garbage, but would you mind just paying up anyway?”?

   And also, when have Marvel argued about what success means? They’ve always been pretty consistent about their definition of success being “sales”. Yes, they sometimes keep a book going longer in the face of bad sales if it’s particularly beloved by them/fans (i.e. Superior Foes), but ultimately, they’re pretty upfront about measuring success by sales.

5. No, that’s not fair. It’s craven dishonesty. When I say “goal posts”, I means in this context, the definitions of what “success” means. MacQ is right, Marvel PR will say anything, anything at all, no matter how untrue it is (I am not referring her to particular writers or artists, who have often been more candid, especially when they no longer had a pay-check on the line). If Marvel execs told us that the sky is up and the ground is down, experience tells us to go outside and make sure.

6. @43 To be fair, sometimes the goal posts genuinely move. It’s part of Marvel’s job to keep up with trends. One reason they’re doing this many female books now rather than five years ago is because the industry has visibly shifted in that direction over the last two or so years. They’d be stupid not to at least try some.

7. Pre-SSM was stagnated in the low to mid 50s, sales-wise, which is why they did SSM. It later got time-coordinated with the release of the second movie, which dragged it out a few months. Marvel sees sales sparks coming off of Slott’s ASM, and they are blowing on those sparks, hoping to start new flames. Which is just what you would expect any publisher to do. But Slott’s vision of Peter Parker is too childish for my taste, his characterizations are wild caricatures, and I dislike how he writes women characters.

   http://www.thefreedictionary.com/caricature

8. “Throwing everything at the wall and keep whatever sticks” is as reasonable an explanation as anything.

   It is also true that Marvel lies like a bearskin rug. You can count on them to always move the goal-posts, to justify whatever it is they’re doing at the moment, or to “prove’ something.

   I will say that Steve Wacker’s exodus from the Internet has been a tremendous help to Marvel’s bad PR image. Now, if Dan Slott would keep quiet, all would be well.

9. @40 I think I’m just remembering how people were all “LOOK AT THE SALES THEY MATTER THEY PROVE EVERYONE MUST BE FIRED” and making graphs during BND when sales were middling, and now they’re quite good, we’ve changed to “THEY MEAN NOTHING THEY WOULD DO THAT WHATEVER”. Yeah. Okay.

   @41 Never been a fan of “These books are being released to fail!” as an argument. I just don’t think Disney/Marvel would bother doing as many female-lead books as they’re currently doing (and there are quite a lot, line-wide) if they were only being done to prove a point by failing.

   It’s probably still a marketing driven move to some extent (they’ve clearly noticed that Ms Marvel/Captain Marvel are picking up a positive buzz and they want more of that), but I think it’s more likely to be that kind of cynicism than the “Designed To Fail” kind. That just doesn’t see like something they’d realistically bother with. Or they’re just trying to build up their line of female-lead books by throwing loads at the wall and keeping whichever stick.

10. #40

    “If Marvel was confident in the sales of the book, they wouldn’t have to keep tying it into all these sales gimmicks and promotions. These are being done for a reason. Yes, they work. But I don’t think that its a sign of confidence in a series sustainability without having a major event or tie in to an event every three months.”

    QFT.

    And even though the relaunched book is six issues in, it’s still a tie-in to yet ANOTHER big event. So retailers are ordering based on the Edge of the Spider-Verse association, not because they have faith people want to read about Peter Parker. (And it’s a good thing they don’t, because Peter – as per usual – is getting crowded out of his own book yet again).

    And whaddaya wanna bet that we’ll see ASM Vol 4 and yet another #1 after the events of Secret Wars, if not after the events of Spider-Verse? MOAR BIG SALES!

    I still contend that the spin-off books (Spider-Woman, Spider-Gwen and Silk) are being set up to fail so Marvel can say, “See? We tried marketing to women (with variant covers by Italian erotic artists because yeah, that’s pro-women). We tried female-lead books. Doesn’t work!” and then they can quit trying. Because absolutely no one is asking for a Silk spin-off. Spider-Gwen is a cute idea that appeals to a certain audience who is nostalgic/liked Emma Stone, but alternate universe characters rarely survive past 12 issues. And Gwen is all alone in her universe so far, AFAIK – at least MC2 and Ultimate tried to build a populated universe to sustain interest.

11. @#39- I’m wary of the “Sales Discussion,” because- lets face it- no matter HOW the book sells, there will be those that defend it as being a major success.

    During BND, it was a success because “Never before” did Spider-Man have three comics “In the top ten/ twenty.” And that the rankings really didn’t matter, because the company could coast alone on the subscription numbers. Never mind that all we had was Marvel’s word that the numbers were good. Never mind that the book actually sold more during the initial run than it did during BND. Never mind that it was three issues of the same comic, rather than three separate comics in the top ten/twenty.

    Not to mention all the other reasons that they blamed for sales not being stellar, such as the economy and that said three times a month publishing schedule. And, again, rankings didn’t matter because Wacker insisted that they “Gained more fans than they lost.”

    Except for when the rankings DID matter, when sales actually did improve and the book rose in the rankings. Then we could trust the numbers. Before when they were lackluster, they weren’t accurate of the real audience. Now that they are substantially better and the rankings improved, then we can trust the numbers. So I’m not really inclined to believe what anyone says about the numbers. Because, let’s face it, good sales or not, Marvel’s going to do what Marvel’s going to do.

    Yes, you can’t really say that even though the numbers are good, that it means everyone secretly hates the book and people are buying it anyway. But, at the same time, we can’t really use the good sales to insist that there are no problems with the book, or people aren’t being turned off by it. We still have to remember that a lot of sales, especially after a high profile relaunch, are perceived sales, not based on actual interest but perceived interest. It takes a while for retailers to gauge how many people will be reading the book, so they often order more than they require. And we also have to remember that Spider-Man has been tied into a lot of events, promising to be big and that will garner a lot of attention, to keep heat up on the book. We can’t pretend that all the sales are a 1:1 ratio, and that Marvel tying Spider-Man into Original Sin and heavily promoting Spider-Verse even before Superior was even over hasn’t had an affect on the sales of the series.

    If Marvel was confident in the sales of the book, they wouldn’t have to keep tying it into all these sales gimmicks and promotions. These are being done for a reason. Yes, they work. But I don’t think that its a sign of confidence in a series sustainability without having a major event or tie in to an event every three months.

12. No, you can’t say good sales make a comic good, but nor can you make the “EVERYONE SECRETLY HATES THE COMIC, THE FACT IT’S SELLING WELL MEANS NOTHING” argument, especially six issues in. At this point, stores have had the book for a few months and are ordering based on what they can sell to their customers. The fact it’s still doing well suggests genuine interest.

    I’m sure it sells a certain amount just for being Spider-Man, but clearly the bonus sales on top of that are bigger right now than it has been for quite a long time.

13. @#34-35-I agree Slott’s pre-ASM #700 work is better than this stuff now, but it’s the difference between 50 tons of crap and 48 tons. The first run wasn’t actually good it was just comparatively less crappy.

    @#36-I want to say that as far as quantity over quality goes we’re back to the 1990s, but in all honesty with Spider-Verse I actually think it’s now worse than the 1990s. I mean in the 2000s there were 3-4 books roughly (if you include Ultimate) and in the 90s there were a MINIMUM of 4 titles per month. With Spider-Verse though….Jesus Christ…

    And yeah, you cannot defend the quality of the book on sales alone. Amazing Spider-Man sells a certain number of books REGARDLESS just because it’s Amazing Spider-Man. And Superior despite the different name was understood to be ASM by another name so the same applies there. Plus between variants, and collectors mentality it isn’t like 10, 000 books sold = 10, 000 people actually bought the things. And even if that was the case….Michael Bay’s movies sell well, but no one is claiming they’re actually any good.

14. I dunno, ASM was selling a lot less during BND – hell, even Slott’s own Big Time run wasn’t doing as well as it is currently. Can’t just be the prestige of the title, people must be liking the current run a bit more than usual. Even Learning To Crawl and the two bonus issues of Superior were pretty high in the charts.

    The really good sales probably explains why we’re getting so many spin-offs, to be honest. Amazing Spider-Man is their most popular ongoing currently, beating Avengers and X-Men – high time to see if anyone wants books featuring the satellite characters.

15. Amazing is definitely a mess at this point due to Slott’s writing and characterization of the protagonist but he (and Marvel) will associate the quality of the book with the consistently strong sales which as already mentioned is secured due to the prestige of the character, the name of the book and of course the recent movie. It’s going to be a never ending cycle of increasingly poor Spider-Man stories unfortunately.

    Besides with all these (largely unnecessary) titles coming out its clear Marvels strategy must be quantity over quality/demand.

16. @34 – There were some pretty horrible stories during Slott’s original ASM run ( Peter Park Paparazzi, The Darkest Secret ect.). But this current run is by far his worst writing.

17. @#32-33 Yeah, with Marvel’s constant relaunching. I mean, I’m pretty sure Paul Cornell’s first Wolverine run was, like, only 13 issues. I legitimately would not have been shocked if we had gotten an “All-New Amazing Spider-Man” Relaunch after Spider-Verse with whatever flimsy justification Marvel would have concocted for it. Though I’m sure after Slott leaves (whenever that is) that Spidey will probably be relaunched for the new creative team.

    @16-17-I remember one of my personal conceits for buying and reading Superior was knowing that Peter was coming back. And I remember being excited when he did, and after the end of Superior I was really looking forward to finally seeing him back as Spidey. But now that he’s back, Slott doesn’t seem to know what to do with him and how he writes his character has left a lot to be desired. The difference in quality of his other books (Surfer, Learning To Crawl, and Superior) to his current Amazing run is kinda shocking to me. And the thing is, while I haven’t re-read it in a while, I think his original Amazing run up till #700 was much, much better than this.

18. @32 – What was it Kevin once said on the podcast? “In his time at Marvel Bendis has written two Avengers #13 issues”.

19. @#31-Thank you

    @#30-Actually seven issues these days is probably middle aged

20. Man, I am constantly impressed by the insights and perspectives that I read here on the Crawlspace. You guys are great.

21. @29 – “It’s a long running presitge title …”

    What do you mean? It’s only been around for 7 issues! 🙂

22. @#29-It probably won’t though. I’m honestly at the point where I think Slott’s titles will sell regardless just because of the fan following he and Ramos have+ anything with Spider-Man in it and/or called ‘the Amazing Spider-Man’ (especially with variants involved) will sell regardless that Slott’s titles will never get bad enough sales to warrant major changes. It’s a long running presitge title, to an extent it almost runs itself and customers are either too adicted or apathetic to bother actually quitting these days. That’s how it seems to me. With Spider-Man it always sells well regardless of quality.

23. If Slott kills Mayday or her parents, i hope fan reaction blows up in his face.

24. @26 – Well that’s something. Unfortunately I’ve still got a horrible feeling that she’s going to die towards the end of the event. Out of interest, has anyone confirmed if Gerry Drew is going to make an appearance during Spider-Verse?

25. @#25-Given that Lowe said Mayday will have a role in Spider-Verse, in ASM #8 at least she’ll live. Her parents though….I doubt it

26. @23 – Aside from the team that SpOck has formed, I don’t think Slott is interested in giving the other Spider-People actual roles in Spider-Verse. After reading ASM #7 and his comments on this panel it’s quite clear that he just wants to kill off the fan favorite Spiders for shock value. May and MC2 Peter will likely die because it will engage the MC2 fanbase.

27. @#23-But that’d be practically as bad. MC2 fans highly value the fact that, uniquely, nothing dark or tragic is present in Mayday’s life or origin and her relationship with both her parents is the core of the book. Killing off Peter and/or MJ in that universe destroys one of the biggest things which makes Spider-Girl a concept people love. You literally cannot touch any of the four family members if you want to keep what makes the book appealing

28. The thing of it is, I don’t think that the controversy concerning Mayday and her potential death would be AS bad if it wasn’t for the person writing it. Given Dan Slott’s attitude regarding certain aspects of the mythos, I think it causes a lot of people to automatically believe the worst. That he is more likely to undo or outright demolish anything that doesn’t fit with his notion of what Spider-Man “should” be.

    That being said, it may not be so much that May will die in that it might be Peter who would die, setting her off on a mission of revenge against Morlun.

29. As super hero names go, “Spider-Gwen” sounds even dumber than “Red She-Hulk”.

30. Also no one seems to have mentioned that DeFalco’s originally planned Spider-Girl back up story seems to have disappeared into thin air

31. Why do Slott et al delight in trolling the fans and just needlessly kill people off. I don’t care if it’s not Mayday herself but one or both of her parents. I hate Slott’s run overall but if he goes through with this his run will sink to an even lower level than it has already. His run is already known as the one which killed Silver Sable, Ashley Kafka, Marla Jameson, Peter Parker himself and was the run with the Superior Spider-Wanker. Now his run is going to be the one which ruined the MC2 universe, the ONE place which didn’t suck for Peter and MJ. The one place where Spider-Man DID get what he deserved. But no….let’s ruin that. Let’s make THAT dark and depressing to, so that Peter didn’t actually get to live happily. He has to die, or suffer or be miserable in EVERY version of reality.

    @#8-2099 is interesting

    But you are right. I’ve said before how basically the best thing about Slott’s run is that he’s facilitated spin-off books which tend to be either good unto themselves and/or better than ASM, and this is like that fact taken to extremes. Before he set up Scarlet Spider and Venom and 2099. Now this whole Spider-Verse event (plus Silk) is taking that even further. At the same time though he also spun-off Alpha so….

    @#12-I actually think for the same reasons as keeping Miles in the Ultimate universe, keeping Spider-Gwen by herself is creatively a better decision, but perhaps not financially so.

32. @16 – Given how Slott’s been writing Peter this year I’m really dreading that we’re going to see Peter follow the other Spider-Men around like a clueless buffoon, get mocked by SpOck, and get his ass kicked by Morlun.
    He’s been written as a helpless bystander in his own book since Original Sin, and I can’t imagine Slott changing that now (I just really hope he does).

33. “Even sadder is that Peter is looking like the least compelling character out of this whole thing.”

    So worrying how true this is. Amazing is a mess.

34. I knew as soon as I saw Spider-Girl in the teaser poster that she was going to die. Marvel seems dead set on removing any evidence that Parker and MJ had ever been married, and she was the last piece of that story. Really, it’s quite insulting… after One More Day they said ‘hey, y’know what? For people who still like that old version, you still have Spider-Girl’.

    Except now we won’t.

35. @ #15 George Berryman —

    Somewhere between all of this and a writer that can’t handle him, Peter Parker is getting lost in the shuffle.

    I was just thinking that as well, George, as I know this is something you’ve brought up on the last podcast. Granted, maybe the lack of info about what Peter will do during and after Spider-Verse is being done to avoid potential spoilers, but even so, it’s extremely telling that the original Spider-Man–the guy who everybody should be happy to have been brought back–is being treated like a complete afterthought. Even sadder is that Peter is looking like the least compelling character out of this whole thing.

36. Somewhere between all of this and a writer that can’t handle him, Peter Parker is getting lost in the shuffle.

37. @#13- Of course all we have is Dan Slott’s word regarding this, and- from personally experience regarding how he “interacts” with some fans- he’s not above exaggerating his point to make himself or his position look better. He’s a good guy if you don’t criticize him. But if you don’t agree with him on even the slightest point, he has no problem painting himself in the best light possible, and is opponents as nothing more than a hyperbolic internet troll.

    For example, he stated that there was absolutely no editorial influence on the book. It was all just him, no one telling him what to do. Then, just a few weeks later, said that he wanted Spider-Verse to be a Doc Ock story, but was “convinced” otherwise by Joe Q and others. In other words, there was no editorial influence, except for that editorial influence.

    Again, I get that he may have had the idea. But I doubt that all the tie in’s came from him. And while he may want to write ASM as long as possible, that doesn’t mean that Marvel wants him on the title for as long as he wants. Simply not being removed doesn’t mean that Marvel is comfortable with him being on the title indefinitely. At some point, they may want to go in a direction he may not want to go in, and they get final say on who does or does not stay on the series.

38. @11 – From everything I’ve heard Spider-Verse is Slott’s baby; just like Superior this is something he’s been wanting to do for years. I’m sure he’s been making notes in his notebooks for a long time, either of existing alternate Spideys he wanted to use or creating new alternates (even if it’s just something as simple as “Gwen Stacey got bit by the spider”). The execution may be all by the other writers, but the genesis and origins is all Slott. I’m sure JMS’ spider-totem stories and the creation of Morlun helped him when he was making notes about who was behind Spider-Verse, but if Morlun never existed I’m sure Slott would have come up with some other mystical/cosmic foe.

    Of course I have no proof of this. Just basing it on Slott’s history with the title, his interactions with fans, and his own words stating that he wants to be writing ASM for as long as humanly possible. He is “the guy” at Marvel as far as Spider-Man is concerned and all story ideas are coming from him and only him.

39. This is my cynical take on what will happen, given Marvel’s current lip service to wanting more female readers:

    They’ll make a big splash now in the press: “Marvel is so female friendly – we just love the ladies! Look at how many female-centric titles we are launching! THREE separate Spider-Chicks!!!! We’re so progressive, we even hired a girl to illustrate one of the three books (psst:if you’re a fanbro who hates that wimmen are invading your comics, don’t worry, dudes are handling all the scripting duties so the cooties and feminist agenda-pushing will be minimal). If you have a pair of X chromosomes, we want you to read our comics!’

    Next year at this time: two of the titles are cancelled, one is teetering (I’m expecting Spider-Gwen to last the longest). Marvel to the press: “We tried, people, we really tried. But female-centric comics just don’t sell.”

    And of course, what Marvel won’t say is:
    1) Spider-Man can barely sustain three or more versions at one time, and he has a fifty year history and committed fanbase.
    2) NO ONE is asking for a Silk spin-off; putting her in her own title without building some sort of support for the character is book suicide
    3) There doesn’t seem to be much call for Spider-Woman, but it was one thing when Jessica’s book was part of the “Women of Marvel” announcement and competing with only a handful of titles for the audience who will buy female-led books; now she’s competing not only with those books, but two other Spider-female titles!
    4) Spider-Gwen isn’t tied to the greater 616 universe (at least, that’s what they’re saying) – this might be great for brand new readers who don’t want to wade through decades of convoluted continuity, but on the other hand it means little crossover audience from 616 non-Spidey fans.

    IMO, the books are being set up to fail from the beginning. But of course, the fault will be put on audiences just not being ready for titles with female leads.

40. @#9- I was actually speaking about the whole “Miles Morales and Ultimate Cartoon Spidey team up to save 1960’s Spider-Man” sort of stuff, which I doubt Dan Slott thought of.

    Nor do I think he came up with Spider-Gwen or any of the other tie-in ideas. And I think that Morlun came after when he first wrote his “notebook.” While I think that he certainly may have come up with the idea, I think the execution and exploration of the concept was more from other writers.

41. What happened to “Gwen Stacy Spider-Woman”? Now it’s “Spider-Gwen??”

42. @8 – “Some of the ideas seem intriguing, but the funny thing is, none of them seem to be coming from Dan Slott. It’s other people taking advantage of the Spider-Verse premise to do the really fun stuff.”

    Oh, I wouldn’t be surprised if all of these ideas came from Slott’s notebooks, that he had created all of these alternate Spider-Man (and Silk) years ago.

43. So, nothing really of interest to me regarding this panel. Just more “talking about Spider-Verse” and more stuff we pretty much already knew was coming up.

    If something bad happens to May in AMS# 8, or her family, I doubt it will end well with the fans. But, as I stated before, this is alternate realities, so it’d be incredibly easy to retcon any change or death as saying “That happened to someone else.”

    Really, aside from Spider-Gwen, nothing that the current creative teams seems to be doing seems to be all that interesting or really responsive to what fans want. I mean, I don’t think people were really clamoring for more Silk, or more Aunt May. And the mean-spirited deaths of a lot of characters in Spider-Verse I don’t think is really coming off as all that endearing. Some of the ideas seem intriguing, but the funny thing is, none of them seem to be coming from Dan Slott. It’s other people taking advantage of the Spider-Verse premise to do the really fun stuff.

    I was expecting more from this panel, but we’ll probably won’t get any real spoilers or idea where the series will head afterwards for another month or so.

44. The Q&A section about Doc Ock not returning and staying dead? @4- Another quote from George’s repertoire: “Don’t worry. He’ll get better.”

    Also, why would anybody be thrilled to be working on a solo title for Silk? I mean, it’d be one thing for it to be like Black Cat or Spider-Woman, but Silk? It might just be my more cynical opinion and outlook, but how much do you wanna bet that they had to pay her to say that?

    Finally, “the panel were also tight-lipped about how long the ship between Spidey and Silk ‘is going to sail’.” If I was to take Dan Slott’s place the first thing I’d do was to torpedo that ship and sink it before anybody even got on the dock.

45. @5 – Golden Oldie 2

46. I was pretty cool with all of this until I read the words “Amazing Aunt May”.

47. Poor Peter David. Remember when he finally got his own solo Spidey series (FNSM) and then he got saddled with The Other crossover and then he had to fit his plots in with Civil War, the unmasking, and Back in Black. And now it feels like it’s happening again with Spidey 2099 and Spider-Verse. Marvel, just leave Spidey 2099 alone and let PD write his own stories.

    Silk will appear in both Spider-Woman series and her own series? To quote George, “because the fans demanded it!”

    Regarding Silk, “Dan and Humberto have created a character that is fully-formed …” Really? Did I miss an issue?

    “Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1 would feature a story by Cale Atkinson featuring ‘The Amazing Aunt May.'” That’s exactly want readers want from an annual they have to pay more for than the regular issues.

48. I really want to pop Slott on the nose with a rolled-up magazine right now for what I’m fearing will happen to Mayday and her family.

49. Marvel aren’t actually going to call Gwen Stacy’s solo series Spider-Gwen are they? I’m sure the book will be good, but that is one of the dumbest titles I’ve ever heard.

    ‘One of the stories in Spider-Verse Team-Up will feature Miles Morales joining forces with Spidey from the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon to save Spider-Man from the classic 1960s cartoon.’ – This actually sounds weirdly interesting, color me intrigued. I also wouldn’t be opposed seeing Ultimate cartoon Spidey killed off 😉

50. Marvel is Oprah,but with “you” being characters and “car” being books……