Dan Slott did an interview with Word Balloon in January and followed it up talking about the supporting cast and romantic interests for Peter Parker.
Any character in the cast who has been in the cast a long time ago, during the Gwen and Mary Jane years, they’ve all gone through so much, that putting them together with Pete as possible romantic interests, doesn’t work. Liz has gone through a marriage, she dated Foggy Nelson for a while. Betty has dated Hobgoblins and Venoms. You can make a case for Black Cat because they’ve had all these hook-ups. But if it’s somebody who has spent a lot of time with Peter, it seems weird to suddenly go “Well, maybe I’ll date Glory Grant.” No, you’ve known her for years. This is weird. The problem is when you bring in a new character, everyone immediately dislikes them because they’re not Mary Jane and not Gwen. So the Cissy Ironwoods and Carlie Coopers of the world don’t have a chance.
Thoughts on Mary Jane.
She has so much history. She’s a force of nature. I think, more than anything, that’s what pushed Gwen off that bridge, to make room for Mary Jane. At the same time, she’s a character who caused a lot of tsuris. Once she had the baby , you could see the staff going “Ugh, do we want to tell the story of the Amazing Spider-Dad?”
Aunt May’s response to Ana Maria Marconi.
We had talks back in Brand New Day about what we can do to flesh out the supporting cast more, to give them more dimensions, and one the things that kept coming up was what If one of Peter’s friends is a bigot. What if someone is a hidden racist, or a homophobe? They have some kind of weak spot that isn’t right, that’s on the wrong side of history. Because we all have friends who have flaws, and it’s the flaws that make people interesting. It was something we always thought was a good idea, but whenever it came time to apply that to any character, everyone said “No, not that character.” Betty’s a racist? No, Betty’s been hanging out with Glory and Randy, no, that wasn’t work. What about Aunt May? No, we saw her doing civil rights marches in the 60s. So we could never give this ugly trait to someone. Having Aunt May not be perfect is interesting. And when Aunt May is talking about this, it doesn’t sound like a prejudice. It’s a concerned grandma, wondering what her grandchildren are going to be like, and being ignorant.
Aunt May did have cause to dislike the woman.Anna Maria does the worst possible thing you can do to Aunt May, which is to serve wheatcakes. She uses Aunt May’s recipe and improves on. And Jay and Pete like those wheatcakes better. Can you do a better sucker punch for Aunt May than that?
What made Anna Marie different.
With Anna Maria, it was fun to have this character who never knew Peter. And you quickly see that the things that she likes are Otto. Everything about the Peter Parker element is the slick outer face that she could care less about. If she met a younger Otto Octavius, she probably would have fallen for him.
I love all of Otto Octavius’s love interests. When you look at all of Peter Parker’s love interests, it’s wish fulfillment. I thought Peter was supposed to be the everyman. Everymen don’t go from Gwen Stacy to the Black Cat to Mary Jane Watson. Every single female in Peter’s life has been handcrafted by John Romita Senior. These total cover girls, people you don’t see in real life. You look at Otto, and he really sees people for who they are inside, and everyone he has chosen to love and be with, there’s something very neat about that. It’s something where I go “I like him more than Peter for that reason.” It’s easy to be Peter Parker, and open that door, and it’s Mary Jane or Gwen in her thigh-high boots.
Thoughts on this?
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I’m finicky on the word ‘destiny’ (just cos real life doesn’t work that way, though in hindsight it does sometimes SEEM like destiny but that might be us reading it with a bias) but she is clearly the best option from a creative point of view and for him as a person.
I agree that after Superior they should just leave his love life alone. Don’t even have him try and get a date. Just let him be a dude with a job for awhile THEN slowly have him and MJ get back together.
The Pro was just…why were there so many pornstar/innuendo laced names in the Clone Saga? The Pro. Joystick. Polestar. Black Bull. The 12” Scarlet Spider (wait)
I shall never leave your head Hornacek. Why at this very moment I know…you are thinking about quoting a podcast are you not. Tell me I am wrong?
@47 – “Carlie Cooper, Michelle Gonzales, Cissy Ironwood, Freak, The Ranger, Captain Power, Judas Traveller, the Pro.”
The Pro? THE PRO?!?
This very day I was listening to the Virtual Mortality episode of CSC with the first appearance of The Pro, and you choose this day to mention him on this thread? Big Al, GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!
Mary Jane is my favorite of all the love interests and clearly who Peter is destined to be with, there’s too much history between them to really say otherwise. That being said, I feel like they need give Peter a break and cool it with his love life for a while. Keep Mary Jane in the book, have them be close friends, create new characters that Peter can be friends with, bring in the old characters, eventually have Peter and Mary Jane get back together. Don’t try to put him in a romantic relationship with just any new female character that is created, leave that to the fans who like to ship characters together. Then everyone can be happy (probably not).
@#46-Explain. How is MJ redundant?
She’s a character is a versatile history and developed personality which you can therefore generate new stories about and she bounces off of Peter extremely well. Contrastingly any new love interest we know will sooner or later end up on the trash heap since we know it’s just a rotating door. We know for a fact that every new love interest isn’t going to last, that his relationship with them is doomed to fail. If MJ’s redundant then Hell we should just give him a new mother-figure every few years as well because Aunt May is DEFININTLY redundant at this point.
Carlie Cooper, Michelle Gonzales, Cissy Ironwood, Freak, The Ranger, Captain Power, Judas Traveller, the Pro. All meaningless in a narrative and creative sense. Clearly you CAN have new characters be meaningless in a narrative and creative sense. Just because your new doesn’t make you relevant. In fact it’s the exact opposite, if a character is new they’ve got to prove themselves. If your argument is that MJ for instance is redundant since she’s not a new character then again, Aunt May, Harry, Jonah, even Peter himself need to GTFO.
Gwen died when she was creatively spent and her death changed the industry to the point where characters like her got development. Her death facilitated that. You can’t judge Gwen on what hypothetically she might have been like if she had lived. Objectively Gwen’s character exists up until ASM #121 therefore we can only judge her on that and on that basis she wasn’t all that great. Objectively MJ has a longer history. Therefore we can only judge her on that. Compare the two. Yeah MJ comes off as better, as she does compared to most of the other love interests.
But even ignoring that going by MJ’s history up until ASM #122 she was STILL a more interesting character to the point where Stan and Romita themselves were trying to sabotage her/writer her out to give Gwen a shot….and they failed.
“He’s had good ones. He’s got a good one. Why does he need new ones at all?In particular nowdays when they’re redundant since they go nooooooooooowhere.” ”
Because they are new. MJ is more redundant.
“It’s meaningless in a narrative/creative sense”
New characters never are meaningless in a narrative/creative sense.
“Gwen wasn’t that great of a character”
MJ has 50 years of development. Gwen just died too soon. This is the difference.
@#44-Spider-Man doesn’t need new love interests in the slightest. He’s had good ones. He’s got a good one. Why does he need new ones at all? In particular nowdays when they’re redundant since they go nooooooooooowhere.
It’s meaningless in a narrative/creative sense. Obviously in terms of real life it’s meaninglessbeyond the enjoyment we all get from it/the work it provides other people.
Gwen wasn’t that great of a character. It wasn’t like she was killed off then simply replaced. Her death altered the comic book industry as a whole and she was only replaced in that Peter got a female love interest who was more interesting and frankly a better match for him. It was also at a point in time where Peter had only had 2 major girlfriends thus there was legitimately unexplored territory and the franchise as a whole was barely over 10 years old. It is simply put a zillion miles away from being the same thing beyond the superficialities of “one girlfriend was written out and another one was written in”. In this specific case what worked for the franchise in 1973 doesn’t work over 40 years later.
“No, he doesn’t. New love interests for Peter Parker are all meaningless.”
Everything is meaningless. It,s a comic book!
“Besides, it is foolish to throw away the wife/girlfriend character who has proven to endure in popularity over decades, just to be “new”. That’s like demanding that Sherlock Holmes get rid of John Watson, just to be “new.””
Yes, like Gwen. But she´s dead. Nobody is indispensable.
No, he doesn’t. New love interests for Peter Parker are all meaningless.
Besides, it is foolish to throw away the wife/girlfriend character who has proven to endure in popularity over decades, just to be “new”. That’s like demanding that Sherlock Holmes get rid of John Watson, just to be “new.”
“Neither does Carlie or Anna or anyone else. Slott’s the one arguing for THEIR relevance and importance OVER a character like MJ. That they HAVE to be there, in one form or another. I know that Spider-Man is the main character. But I’m not the one putting ALL the importance on who he is dating, making THAT the central theme of the entire mythos, and the ONLY thing that matters to appeal to old and new fans alike.”
Peter Parker needs new love interests . That’s good for the series. Carlie, Anna, or anyone else…. Spiderman needs them. That´s the point.
“But if it’s somebody who has spent a lot of time with Peter, it seems weird to suddenly go “Well, maybe I’ll date Glory Grant.” No, you’ve known her for years. This is weird.”
Well, considering I’ve known and been friends with my fiance since 1992 and we started dating two years ago, I’m gonna take issue with that logic.
“Everything about the Peter Parker element is the slick outer face that she could care less about.”
I think you mean “couldn’t” care less. “Could”” implies that you do care to some degree, “couldn’t” implies that you are rock bottom for not caring.
@#38-I forgot to say this but technically speaking MJ did need the hero from an emotional point of view. As in his personality helped balance out hers as JMS pointed out in his run
@#38-And that’s part of what makes the Peter/MJ relationship pretty unique. It was closer to real life because MJ wasn’t created with the intention of being ‘the girlfriend’ thus she was independent as a character which allowed for their relationship to occur more organically. It was effectively something which you couldn’t genuinely plan on happening, no writer could honestly have intentionally written Peter and MJ’s relationship developing the way it did up until 1975 or up to 1987. It was part accident and part design. So it was asinine to throw that away as the writers had basically been handed something pretty unique which none of them could replicate.
@#36 RDMacQ — I couldn’t agree with you more. And as others have pointed out, it wasn’t because Carlie was “not Mary Jane” or “not Gwen” that readers failed to accept Carlie as Peter’s new girlfriend. During Brand New Day, there were readers who did like the chemistry between Peter and Norah Winters. Or Peter and Ms. Marvel. Or even Peter and Michele Gonzales. Sure, they would’ve preferred Peter and MJ getting back together, but at least these three seemed like far more promising alternatives (although they really screwed up with Michele Gonzales practically from the start). Also, remember how Carlie never seemed to have a distinctive look of her own other than wearing glasses, and how she kept having her hairstyle (and in some cases even her hair color) changed every other issue? That, too, showed readers that the creators really didn’t find much that was compelling or exciting about her even though they tried very hard to make her so.
Also, I’m reminded of another interview Word Balloon did with Gerry Conway, asking him about Mary Jane in light of “The Night Gwen Stacy Died,” and Conway pointed out a very good point. He said the reason why be believe MJ was so compelling and far more interesting was that, unlike Peter’s other love interests or even other superhero girlfriends, she was one of the few female characters who didn’t actually need the hero, that she actually had a life outside of Peter’s, and yet she chose to be with him anyway. Which, of course, we can totally see in that classic last page from Amazing Spider-Man #122 where, in spite of Peter telling MJ to get out and insulting her by saying she didn’t care about Gwen’s death, she still decided to stay and comfort him.
@31- Deke Rivers- “But the series isn´t “Amazing MJ”. It is “Amazing Spiderman”.”- I don’t see how this statement is relevant to the conversation at all. I wasn’t arguing that MJ was MORE important or deserved equal billing with Spider-Man. This is an irrelevant point.
“The main character IS Spiderman. MJ doesn´t have to be relevant (or “more” relevant).” – Neither does Carlie or Anna or anyone else. Slott’s the one arguing for THEIR relevance and importance OVER a character like MJ. That they HAVE to be there, in one form or another. I know that Spider-Man is the main character. But I’m not the one putting ALL the importance on who he is dating, making THAT the central theme of the entire mythos, and the ONLY thing that matters to appeal to old and new fans alike.
@35 Stillanerd- I find it funny that the justification used for Carlie is that she has the “potential” to be interesting, she has the “potential” to do great things. But she never really lives up to that potential, does she? Her journey may sound “interesting” on paper. But in execution there’s really nothing too it at all. Nothing special. Nothing that makes HER stand out from the crowd. The whole “Girl who’s been there all along thing?” Yeah, MJ beat her to it. By three decades. And arguably did it a HELL of a lot better than Carlie did.
Yeah, there’s nothing about the character that’s inherently wrong. But again, that’s where execution comes in. When you force a character into a role that no one is really interested in seeing, if you constantly TELL people how “amazing” the character is despite the fact that they don’t really do anything that’s all that much different from those that came before, if the character has no identity of their own to stand out from the crowd, then it’s no surprise when the audience rejects her or is more interested in a far more compelling character with a long history and presence with the franchise. And, I’m sorry, but if you have over a half dozen writers ALL working on the character and NO-ONE is able to come up with a compelling take with her, then it shows that- while there’s nothing wrong with the character, there’s also nothing exciting about her either.
Compare this with MJ, who people have to go out of their WAY to make her seem like a burden on the franchise. Like she’s this giant alien parasite that attached herself to the mythos that WON’T LET GO!! They have to INVENT a larger, “moral” reason as to why she needs to be given the heave ho to bring in a character like Carlie. When in reality she’s a compelling character with a lot of history with the protagonist, and who has great chemistry with the lead, and has story after story that not only gives her relationship with the lead a lot more weight, but shows that she’s a capable and resourceful supporting character. Someone like Carlie SOUNDS good in theory, but MJ is a character that works in practice.
I really don’t think these or other comments Slott has made are coming from a vacuum. I think the reason he is making this case for MJ now is because he’s pretty much been told that is the relationship to work on going forward, to emphasize that if not to hook Peter and MJ up as soon as possible. But he can’t let go of his original draft, or is upset that the story HE wanted to tell with Peter and Carlie was sidelined, so he still feels the need to make the case for Carlie, that she was “unfairly” treated rather than the reality- she wasn’t that interesting of a character, and no one really liked her.
@#26 RDMacQ — This is an excellent point you’re making, here. Carlie Cooper, as a character, may sound like a good idea on paper (a forensic scientist who can both appeal to Peter on an intellectual level and be a source of information to help him out as Spider-Man) but when put on the printed page, she ended up lacking any sort of chemistry as a love interest for Peter, no matter how hard Slott and the other writers during Brand New Day tried to prove otherwise.
Plus, I recall this statment Slott made in an interview with Newsarama just before he took over as the sole writer on Amazing Spider-Man: “When we looked at Carlie, the very first issue starts off where she’s pining for Peter, and Peter has this kiss with someone he doesn’t even know. So here’s single Pete, and this strange woman is kissing him. Someone he has no connection with. So it kind of felt like a very nice journey, that at the end, Peter’s found a girl. And it’s that girl who’s been there all along. That felt like a very nice story beat for the overarching arc of Brand New Day. That was something all the Web-Heads came up with together and agreed on as a team.
That said, I think one of the problems with Carlie, as a character, is that I think more than any other character in the Brand New Day, in her case there were too many cooks. There wasn’t one strong voice guiding Carlie. If you look at the best characters of the new ones that came out of Brand New Day, I think they all came about because one person would come in and champion them…But Carlie was this one character that I think a lot of us tried to play with. When you picked up the baton and ran, you kind of wanted to leave the character in the same spot for the next guy to pick up, so it kind of felt, a lot of the times, that she floated in amber.
If readers have had a problem with Carlie, I think that might go away now that there’s one writer guiding her. I think we can find a footing for that. There’s nothing about this character that’s wrong. There’s nothing about this character that she can’t go on to do interesting things and have interesting developments.”
http://www.newsarama.com/6524-dan-slott-on-amazing-spider-man-648-and-beyond-part-1.html
This was extremely telling to me when I read it at the time. Because it implied that even though the rest of the writers knew that Carlie was always going to be Peter’s new girlfriend–especially once Slott was going to take over the book–none of these other writers were really all that interested in her as a character to properly develop her. And if they don’t really care about her as a character, then why should the reader? It also explains why we suddenly started getting stories where the readers being told how great Carlie without actually showing us (i.e. the “Carlie Hammer”).
Sigh. In short…Slott has spouted a lot of BS in this interview. The biggest being about the baby and Mary Jane. I agree with him it’s very difficult to sell us on a new love interest who isn’t Mary Jane. Partially that’s because you cannot possibly generate 20-40 years worth of character/relationship development with someone new. Partially it’s because in the wake of OMD we KNOW his love life is never gonna go anywhere hence it’s redundant. And the thing with the baby demonstrated a mindblowing narrow-mindedness as well as a lack of knowledge. The baby plot line was originally created to GET RID of a married Spider-Man the writers never intended to write Spider-Dad.
Hmmmmmmmmmm… so I’ve learned that a “lot” means “two”… awesome.
@Phantom Rocas ;; _Almost_ like? Ironic-speak, eh?
Opinions aside, the interview shows uber-subjectivity. In any walk of life it’s very hard to discuss points of disagreement with people who start with what they feel, then create reasons post-facto. Then pop them on and off, like hats.
“There wasn’t some larger conspiracy or agenda to make MJ “more” relevant. She was just a good character that stood out from the crowd”
But the series isn´t “Amazing MJ”. It is “Amazing Spiderman”.
The main character IS Spiderman. MJ doesn´t have to be relevant (or “more” relevant).
@28: It’s almost like Slott is making up “facts” to justify his beliefs that Otto deserves to be the main character of the Spider-Man mythos more than Peter. But that would be ridiculous.
@29: Hey, then at least she’ll be dead, and future writers would have a good enough not to use her.
You know what would be awesome? If Carlie’s coming to SpOck for help really turns out to be a trick. Heck, keep Monster around after Goblin Nation as a regular villain. A twist like THAT would actually make me like the character! But no, she’s probably just going to end up selflessly sacrificing herself to save Spider-Man because she’s just that darn perfect. *gag*
@25 – As soon as I read Slott’s quote about Ock’s girlfriends I immediately thought of Stunner. I mean, how many “girlfriends” has Ock had before ASM #700? We saw one in his origin story (Obituary For An Octopus?) where his overbearing mother convinced him not to marry the girl, and there was an Unlimited issue (?) where he was trying to cure AIDS because a former girlfriend (?) was dying of the disease. Other than that, I think the only time we saw him getting any action was Aunt May and Stunner. And Stunner was pure wish fulfillment on his part, so I don’t think any writer can legitimately say that Ock sees people for who they are inside when he literally made Stunner’s physical appearance.
I really dont want a spiderman without mj or gwen but I would give carlie or black cat another shot hell I even liked the idea of Pete and kitty pryde in ultimate
As I stated before, I think it’s pretty clear that Slott is being forced to use MJ and doesn’t want to, and has to come up with SOME greater reason as to why he HAS to do so rather than- you know- the fact that people like her relationship with Peter and they didn’t like Carlie Cooper or Anna Marie.
There wasn’t some larger conspiracy or agenda to make MJ “more” relevant. She was just a good character that stood out from the crowd. She was more dynamic, more interesting, more well developed and had better development than pretty much anyone before or since. In a day and age where female love interests were constantly crying and moaning over the superhero not being able to “open up” to them, MJ bucked the trend and showed herself to be independent. That’s a refreshing change of pace to the fandom. The reason the Cissy Ironwood’s and the Carlie Cooper’s can’t stand up to them is because they simply aren’t good characters. There’s a reason why the Wraith didn’t replace the Joker as Batman’s arch nemesis. Why Terra-Man didn’t overtake Lex Luthor. Why Wolverine became the defacto face of the X-Men. They were good characters that made the mythos more interesting.
If he wants to treat using MJ as a “burden” that’s his prerogative. But the narrative wasn’t improved just because he was using more “appropriate” love interests like Carlie Cooper. Far from it. It dragged things down and made them more boring and predictable. More franchises should be “burdened” with a character like MJ. It seemed to do the Spider-Man mythos wonders.
@Hornacek: You can tell from that pic that Otto clearly loved Stunner for her mind.
@20 – You married parents have all the perks in life. Meanwhile us single people with no kids can never catch a break in life. 🙁
The solution in two words: Carole Jennings
Again and again, I see confirmations of criticisms I was making at CBR years ago: Quesada, Wacker, Brevoort and crew just did stuff because _they_ liked it, then they made up a stream of fatuous rationales after the fact. Because it just doesn’t sound good to say, “I want Peter to sleep around”, or “I want to create the next Mary Jane and earn residuals off her every time she’s used, like Brian Michael Bendis does with Jessica Jones.”
What’s ironic is that (according to a recorded interview with Romita Sr) Stan Lee once tried to do the very thing Slott has done — tried to “force” readers away from Mary Jane toward his pet character. According to Romita Sr, Stan always intended Gwen Stacey to be “the One.” But fans were getting more and more enthused about Mary Jane, who had been thrown into the mix to create a little Betty-n-Veronica soap opera drama. So Stan started having Gwen act more and more Mary Jane-ish, with the go-go boots, dancing, slangy talk, etc. Finally Romita Sr put the brakes on when Stan tried to convince him to make Gwen… a redhead!
Romita managed to talk Stan out of it.
Stan was “stuck” on Gwen Stacey, and tried to make the readers not like Mary Jane. He failed, but Stan had the good sales sense to eventually recognize a winning pony and then bet on it. Slott is stuck on Carlie Cooper, and has tried to make the readers not like Mary Jane. He has failed. But Slott doesn’t seem to have any business sales sense, so instead he accuses his customers of being irrationally fixated, and unfairly judgmental.
They will not accept the verdict that OMD and OMIT were the most misbegotten stories in the history of Spider-Man. The hurt pride and anger over getting almost universally slagged over those two stories still suffuses Slott’s attitudes, years later. I hope this new ASM editor is not emotionally tied to OMD/OMIT, and doesn’t feel like he has to “defeat” the readership.
“Once she had the baby , you could see the staff going “Ugh, do we want to tell the story of the Amazing Spider-Dad?””
Yeah, because that would just drain all the conflict and drama out of the title because as every one at Marvel obviously knows, once you become a parent, you’ve reached the ultimate happy ending, and your life gets immeasurably easier and you’re casually paddling your canoe down the River of Bliss singing hymns for the next few decades until it’s time to meet Jesus….
“The problem is when you bring in a new character, everyone immediately dislikes them because they’re not Mary Jane and not Gwen. So the Cissy Ironwoods and Carlie Coopers of the world don’t have a chance.”
No…the problem is that just because you didn’t want to tell stories about a married Spider-Man, you threw away 40 years of history and character development. Instead, Marvel made him into a convoluted mockery of everything he was, and everything he stood for…but hey, he’s single again, so who cares, right?
You can’t have your cake, and eat it too.
“Once she had the baby , you could see the staff going “Ugh, do we want to tell the story of the Amazing Spider-Dad?”
So of course, the solution to that is to just flush everything down the crapper, and try to convince everyone that your stories are somehow BETTER because of it.
…Makes perfect sense to me.
“We had talks back in Brand New Day about what we can do to flesh out the supporting cast more, to give them more dimensions, and one the things that kept coming up was what If one of Peter’s friends is a bigot. What if someone is a hidden racist, or a homophobe? They have some kind of weak spot that isn’t right, that’s on the wrong side of history.”
?????
THIS is what you guys talk about during conferences? This is considered CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT?
Ugh…tell me when it’s all over.
Completely agree with all the points made in these comments.
Unfortunately, I think even if Slott read all of this he would simply, smugly dismiss it as the old disgruntled fans moaning..
Okay, I’ll grant you that it’s due to the era Aunt May grew up in, but I have a problem with Slott thinking that “character depth = bigotry”.
@13 – “Also, really, Slott? He WANTED us to get mad at Aunt May for her comment regarding Anna Maria’s height? So we can’t have her be racist or homophobic, but making her ableist is perfectly acceptable? He seriously thinks that BIGOTRY is the way to add more “dimensions” to a character?”
Yeah his Aunt May comments left me dumbfounded. I mentioned this back in podcast #283 – I didn’t even bat an eye when Aunt May said what she said. She’s old. Most old people – especially really old people – speak their minds and don’t parse what they say. They grew up in times when things weren’t all nuanced and politically correct and that’s still their mindset. They’re not trying to be offensive but the culture of today says they’re sexist, racist, bigots, etc. etc. on and on.
Because people think that “everyman” means that EVERY single aspect of Peter’s life has to be “average”. They think that his only extraordinary trait should be his intelligence. Beyond that, though? If it’s not considered “average”, it’s considered utterly blasphemous.
I don’t see why Peter can’t be an everyman just because he can score with the likes of Mary Jane and Gwen. The whole appeal of the character and his mythos is hope for something better and brighter despite shit happening in the past. As long as he doesn’t give up and work at improving himself in every manner possible. That the everyman can prove himself to be good enough for someone as fantastic as Mary Jane Watson. She inspires him to be the best man he can be.
What about this is so hard to understand? JMS and the other good marriage writers got it easily.
“So the Cissy Ironwoods and Carlie Coopers of the world don’t have a chance.”
Oh boo hoo, let me play a sad song on the world’s smallest violin.
Also, really, Slott? He WANTED us to get mad at Aunt May for her comment regarding Anna Maria’s height? So we can’t have her be racist or homophobic, but making her ableist is perfectly acceptable? He seriously thinks that BIGOTRY is the way to add more “dimensions” to a character?
Oh, and of course, he OUTRIGHT SAID that he likes Otto more than Peter because Otto sees women for what they are on the inside. And people seriously still think that Slott isn’t purposefully trying to turn people against Peter just because Slott likes Otto more?
It is kind of funny how at the time of OMD, they justified freezing Peter in time (regressing him, actually, but that’s another rant…) a la Archie Andrews with hyperbolic arguments like “well if you let Peter get married, at what point does it end?! Wouldn’t he eventually have to retire and die?” and then a couple years later had no problem killing his Ultimate Universe counterpart… They could have had their cake and let us eat ours too with their infinite continuities (Ultimate, Marvel Age, What Ifs, etc.) but no gosh darn it 616 Peter has to remain stagnant because casual readers.
@10- Exactly. The relationship with MJ wasn’t driving people away. Hell, given how many people are still attached to it, it shows it wasn’t a detriment to the series. The problem was and always has been certain creators who tend to pop up every now and then and get upset that they can’t get beyond the notion that simply because they can’t use the love interest of THEIR choice it somehow means that it is a problem for the ENTIRE SERIES!!!
Good writers like JMD, Tom Defalco and JMS embraced the marriage. They wanted to use it. They didn’t flee from it like scared children, and they told a lot of interesting stories because of it. If a writer can’t get beyond that, it’s their problem. It’s a poor craftsman who blames his tools, and if Slott wants to try and act like HAVING to use someone like MJ over someone like Carlie is some kind of huge detriment, then that’s his problem. Lots of people were HAPPY to use the characters as they were, and weren’t upset that they couldn’t turn the franchise into their own fan fiction.
One thing to add: it doesn’t matter how famous or slightly famous or quasi-famous or whatever MJ is/was. It is not at all hard to believe that someone would marry someone else they were intimately close with prior to attaining that level of fame. Any argument of “Well it doesn’t make sense for Peter to be married to a supermodel or star” ignores that essential truth of their history and fails because of it. That aspect of their relationship was not driving people away from the book. No, it was something writers in their 40’s didn’t like because it meant they couldn’t get out “Spider-Man does it with this Mary Sue I created that’s based on a gal I couldn’t get in college” stories.
MJ at her peak was a model and a star on a soap opera – who then later went on to do film work during JMS’s run. Definitely not a ‘B-Lister.’ The Human Torch had a swimsuit poster of her not even knowing she was Spidey’s wife. Heh. 😉
“When you look at all of Peter Parker’s love interests, it’s wish fulfillment. I thought Peter was supposed to be the everyman. Everymen don’t go from Gwen Stacy to the Black Cat to Mary Jane Watson. Every single female in Peter’s life has been handcrafted by John Romita Senior. These total cover girls, people you don’t see in real life.”
Two problems here. 1. Pete’s not an everyman. Even before he was bitten by the radioactive spider, the kid was a genius. 2. Hot chicks aren’t really THAT rare, and even then, most celebrities are a product of makeup artists and lighting. MJ at her peak of popularity was maybe a B-lister… Take a look at shots of Britney Spears and Eva Longoria sans makeup, then tell me its impossible for a guy in Peter’s shape to land a girl like that.
@#4- I agree. Slott’s attitude towards Peter’s love interests seems to be a little out of touch with reality. I think you can kind of tell he doesnt’ WANT to use these characters as love interests, but is forced to because of editorial reasons. He probably would like nothing better than if MJ wasn’t seen as “The Girl” and he could focus on his own pet characters. But that’s where the situation is, and instead of respecting the opinions of the thousands of readers who like that relationship, he has to warp reality and twist the narrative to make it seem like this giant “conspiracy” that this character was “forced” upon the readers and the creators.
And, yes, Dan, a lot of creators WANTED to write the Amazing Spider-Dad. Tom Defalco and JMD had no problems with writing a Spider-Man who was married with a kid. They looked forward to it. That’s what good creators do- they don’t look for excuses to upset the apple cart so they can have a “fresh start” in order to fulfill their own fan-fiction fantasies. They build and grow upon what came before. They don’t look for reasons to undermine previous creative decisions to give their own philosophies more “moral” weight.
And the reason that Carlie Cooper “didn’t have a chance” was because she wasn’t that great of a character to begin with. She was a Mary-Sue, written to be the “perfect” girlfriend, with no identifiable personality of her own. MJ was iconic for a REASON! Again, it’s not an accident or a conspiracy or some sort of fault of the fandom. Carlie was just not that great of a character, end of story. She was not a superior replacement for what came before. Granted, you DO have to work hard when you are following an act like Mary Jane. But when you create a character that is essentially just a jumble of parts from a bunch of previous love interests, with no identifiable identity of her own, and zero chemistry and charisma with the lead character, then you’re not exactly rising to the challenge, are you?
Really, I think Dan Slott is just kind of bitter that his fan-fic created love interests haven’t overtaken the leads of the book, and he’s being forced to write Peter and MJ together as a couple. I think he’d like nothing more than if MJ was just “the friend” or could be written out of the book entirely so he can tell his story with Carlie and Anna, or love interests he “approves” of. He seems to be trying to come up with a “moral” reason as to why MJ “cant” be regarded as Spider-Man’s girl as opposed to a legitimate, factual one. So he’s stuck with Carlie being put off to the side, or Anna Marie just being Otto’s love, and now has to use MJ, because that’s what editorial and the fans want. Because the problem when you write a character that isn’t your own is that you have to share it with everyone else, and I don’t think Slott likes doing that.
Agreed Adam. Let’s face it, even the every man has a string of good things that happen to him. You have a good job, bills get balanced, have a little up take where you can buy an iPad or afford that suit you want that you are going to wear on the job for the next two years. Doesn’t mean being homeless, having everything go wrong for you. That was the problem during the 90s
The Peter has to be an every man thing is starting to grind a little.
It’s used to justify things, like his constant unemployment and Parker-Luck, but he’s also the every man whose part of the the worlds most beloved super-team. Much like many of us. He’s in the Avengers (barely) to help sell the book. So let’s drop the always down on his luck thing.
He’s the every man because he has to deal with bills, and a social life, it doesn’t mean good things can’t happen to him.
Two things this interview tells me: first, how self-centered his thinking is. He laments the popularity of Mary Jane, or Gwen Stacey. No word about the MJ character being a great foil to Peter, or that her popularity is due to her having been written very well in the past by others. No, her popularity is treated as an obstacle to be overcome. A customer-oriented writer would say, “Our customers really like Mary Jane? Then we will give ’em lots of really well-written Mary Jane!”
They are supposed to be writing these stories with an eye to customer tastes, not their own. If you think of Mary Jane, or J. Jonah Jameson, or Aunt May as problems, then don’t be the Amazing Spider-Man writer. But it confirms an impression I developed a long time ago about Marvel, that their thinking is controlled by what amuses and entertains -them-, and if a character bores them they try to jettison them, even if that character is popular with paying customers.
The criticism of Romita Sr is foolish. -Every- girl character Romita Sr drew looked great. Ditko was the one who drew homely looking characters. What super-hero in either of the big Two ever had an ugly girlfriend? It’s like complaining that super-heroes wear costumes.
It also confirms to me that Slott likes and admires the Octavius character, and does think he’s better than Peter. Octavius is a vicious mass murderer, and a writer ought not like him. E.g., I support Mark Waid’s view of Dr. Doom — that Doom isn’t some secretly noble guy, but a rotten killer who would tear off a baby’s head and eat it like an apple if doing so humiliated Reed Richards somehow (a near-verbatim quote from Waid btw). Octavius is no different. Pity him some, sure. Praise him for seeing, appreciating, and caring for women as they really are? That’s way off.
Regarding Peter suddenly dating someone he has known for years, I have known people that have been friends for years and it wasn’t until much later in the friendship that they developed romantic feelings for each other and acted up on it. So that kind of thing does happen. And when you think about it, that’s sort of what happened with Mary Jane. They met, and after a brief initial attraction they dated other people and were “just friends” for a long time, and it wasn’t until much later in their relationship that they decided to give their relationship a chance.
None of Doc Ock’s girlfriends have been wish fulfillment? And “You look at Otto, and he really sees people for who they are inside”? To that, I say: http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/images/stunner/asm397_stunner.jpg
Maybe because Mary Jane is supposed to be with Spider-Man? It’s like a romantic interest for Superman who isn’t Lois Lane. This isn’t hard for me to understand. But whatever. I don’t actually read any of today’s comics.
I can see what he’s saying about the love interest, but I think if some consistent work is done, a new character could be a successful love interest.
I’m reminded of Astonishing Spider-Man and Wolverine. Jason Aaron introduced a character called Sarah, she and Peter fell in love and I found it realistic, and was upset at end the of the season when Sarah’s memory was erased.
She was a normal, realistic girl, who loved Peter.
Carlie had a bumpy road as a character because different writers wrote her differently, and no one could connect to her. Anna Maria has worked as one writer has developed her. If Slott introduced a new character for Peter with this dedication, slowly building the relationship, I think it could be done.
I’m also interested to see more of MJ and her new boyfriend.