Bleeding Cool was able to find an interesting discussion between Amazing Spider-Man writer Dan Slott and former Amazing Spider-Man artist John Byrne. They were discussing a recent plot point of Amazing Spider-Man # 699. Spoilers after the jump.
It seems many feel this scene implied Aunt May had sex with Doc Ock before their wedding night. Slott says it’s open to interpretation. Here’s a cut and paste of the exchange before it was deleted on Byrne’s board.
Dan Slott: Can everyone PLEASE calm down.
Aunt May is clearly fully clothed.
A bride isn’t supposed to SEE the groom before the wedding.
ONLY a kiss is foreshadowed.The sequence is one that takes place BETWEEN panels. If an 8 year old read this– it would be about getting a KISS ON THE LIPS from your Aunt.
Like ALL sequences that take place BETWEEN panels– everything is left to the READER’S IMAGINATION. The entire scene is only as “sick” or “icky” as YOUR OWN MIND makes it.
Posters argued back and forth a little. To one exchange;
“… the intent of this scene is very clear.”
So even when the author of the scene tells you it’s not sex, that’s still what you see. Says a lot about you.
Byrne did a little mind reading;
Looks to me like it says more about that author, desperately back peddling!
Slott replied;
Oh come on. You people read comics. Some of you make them.
We all know about the “magic” between panels when we PURPOSEFULLY leave it to the reader to make up their OWN visuals in their heads.
Even in a worst case scenario that some of you are positing…
…wouldn’t Peter ALSO scream if he saw Aunt May START to take off her clothes? When the scene takes place in YOUR head, YOU control how long the scene goes on and what happens.She is FULLY CLOTHED in the panel before. AND she’s an octogenarian– how fast do you think she COULD get out of that wedding dress in the timing of those two panels?
Just how far someone wished to take this scene in their OWN mind is entirely up to THEM.
John Byrne himself wrote and drew scenes where mind controlled Superman & Big Barda made a porn movie– but he kept the scene tasteful by having the characters watch the video with a TV that was off panel. This is even MORE tame. It’s not even off panel– it’s a moment between the gutters.
This is a lot of unwarranted outrage over a sequence that– while shocking/silly– WAS something that organically came out of the story. A lot of fans WERE wondering if Otto and Spidey swapped places, WOULD Otto & May’s history be addressed.
Oh yes, the porn movie. How would that go over?
Byrne replied, with a little Photoshop;
As we know, it is impossible to have sex of any kind with clothes on.
Dan Slott:
John, I think you need to get your baloney detector checked. 😉
When you look at the the page in context– or read the issue as whole– whenever we showed those memory flashes, every single one of them was a quick flash of one moment in time. Going by how EVERY other memory flash played out– there really wouldn’t be time to get to anything truly salacious.
But WAS that scene constructed to ALLOW readers to reach the worst possible outcome that their OWN minds could take them to? Absolutely. We left that to their OWN devices.
I have already received a very nice fan mail/email from the father of a 10 year old who said it was “Icky that Peter watched Aunt May kiss him.”
With ALL scenes that take place BETWEEN panels, it’s all in the eye of the beholder.
John Byrne:
So many ten year olds reading Marvel comics these days. Why, they’re the target audience, of course! So no chance at all that anyone would read anything more than a kiss into that scene.
Except — why not SHOW a kiss, if a kiss is all there is?
Oh — because you wanted it to be up to the readers. As long as they read it as a kiss?
Uhm. . . . ?
Dan Slott:
Actually, John? Yes, there ARE many 10 year olds reading Marvel comics. I met a bunch of them on a signing 2 nights ago– and kids of all ages come by the Marvel booth at cons. 🙂
And, no, of course we wanted to leave the moment up to EVERYONE’S imagination and NOT put limits on it.
Back when you did that scene from ACTION COMICS that I mentioned earlier, did you think 10 year olds were reading the sequence where Superman and Big Barda made a porn film?
However if you look at Slott tweet from October, it seems he didn’t think it was a kiss when he wrote it. I love the first comment under it. lol
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You know, for once I’d like to see Dan Slott comment on criticism of something he’s written that DOESN’T involve him belittling the people who made it and actually address what is being said.
I think people got way to bent out of shape about this thing. Who cares if slott implied sex or not. It makes a bad situation worse for Peter imagining something like this. I think that both Slott and Byrne handled this situation poorly and acted like immature children. Byrne hasn’t done anything relevant in years and is probably just trying to get back in the lime light. I really don’t care what is supposed to be implied here. It is part of the story, it is out there, nothing is going to change it, lets all just get on with our lives and see how much they plan on screwing Peter over for 700. Then the negative comments can come out about that.
I think you’re mentioning a legitimate complaint. The suggestive implication of the panel is just nasty. But it more fundamentally comes across as a joke. It ought to be a horror. The whole scenario Peter is in, is a horror. But despite Slott’s stated interest in being dark and weird, he doesn’t really want to go there. In the middle of everything he makes wisecracks.
Here’s my problem with the panel.
It adds nothing. It has no point being there. It doesn’t forward the plot. It doesn’t bring any new info to help Peter. It deflates tension where the tension should be at its apex. This is supposedly the darkest hour for Peter Parker, trapped in an impossible situation, no apparent way out and no one to turn to. You brought in enough humor (unintentional though it was) with the previous scenarios of Ock being a creeper to/killing Peter’s friends and family. But remembering Doc Ock marrying Aunt May in the past doesn’t do anything but provide such a mood whiplash that people could probably sue for liable injury.
Kiss, no kiss, sex, no sex, it doesn’t matter. Remembering that point in history adds NOTHING to this story but misplaced levity.
But in the interest of the topic, I’ll say this. You worded something so vaguely and then get a hissy when people didn’t read into it the same way YOU did. You’re the writer, Mr. Slott, it’s up to YOU to put YOUR vision out there. If you wanted it to be about them kissing, be more specific. If you want people to read into it whatever way you want, then you don’t have much of a leg to stand on when some people take it in a direction different to the one you were intending.
The thing about Byrne’s Superman/Barda “brainwashing into porn” story. That WAS the story. It was the crux of the plot. It was a TERRIBLE story, to be sure, but it was still what the story was about. But the Aunt May/Ock panel isn’t part of the story. It is superfluous in the truest sense of the word.
But that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
can we get a “real woman” in here to point out that ” real life” events don’t just involve being the butt of sex jokes?
@31 – JMS’ strength as a writer is his characterization… and the way he wrote Peter, MJ and Aunt May were awesome… but his basic ASM stories were prosaic and never made me care for the next issue (a few gems aside, and his New Avengers arc may have been his best work on the book). And if you loo kagain, my list consisted of ASM writers whose work will be fondly remembered… sadly, JMS’ run has already been forgotten…
@32 – my idea of a “real woman” is a person who engages in “real life” events… like having sex… among many other things that she does… most past writers have written her as a doting old woman who makes wheatcakes in between worrying about Peter and having heart attacks.
She had “relations” with Otto… Peter now shares Otto’s memories… of course that would make him sick…
🙂
@#28
O_o
@#29
THIS is your idea of writing her as a real woman?!?!? Using her to set off her nephew’s gag reflex?!?!?
if anything this panel is the most mature “idea” that has even been address in the past year I’ve been reading Slott’s Spidey book. We have to remember that in real world terms (taking off the kid gloves) Doc Ock is a sociopath and the panel has no reference to Aunt May the woman only Ock’s imagined sexual desires. We are in the mind of a deranged human that has sexual desires like most humans (some of them being perverse). To me this is the first time that the “T” rating on the front of the book has possibly been warranted by delving into the mind of a sociopath. The problem is Slott handles it as a lousy joke instead of a chance to drive forward the narative. If I have a complaint about how the panel was used its dependent on if this is the first time Pete has knowledge that Ock has a thing for his aunt b/c if so then that should have been used to help further his fears about what Ock might do to Pete’s family.
Mike, did you think it was awesome to see JMS write her as a real woman (no quotation marks) in every aspect of her personality and throughout his whole run? Because he’s by far the writer who gave her the most characterization and purpose in the books, and he did it without making cheap jokes about her banging Doc Ock. But I noticed you didn’t put him on your list of acceptable writers.
Can’t stand either of them. Both vastly overrated writers that are disrespectful to the flagship characters they write (or have written) for.
I don’t need to see it all the time, but it’s awesome to see Slott write her as a “real woman” as opposed to some doting old bitty…
I may be in the minority here, but I welcome all the Aunt May sex scenes I can get!
@25 – “lots” is subjective… there were “LOTS” more 10 year old reading in 1982 versus 2012, but that doesn’t mean that none of them do… within my friends and family, I can think of about a dozen kids under the age of 12 that read comics… that’s not “lots”, but it’s nice to see that the hobby isn’t dying…
@#22
Of course I think it was more than a kiss. And if it was just a kiss, I bet she used tongue. Now, can you think of any other reason why he’d react that way? Even using you head, I bet it would be difficult.
One thing that is very interesting about internet discussions is that, since you can’t really gather much about a person’s emotional state from what they type, those on the other end of an argument often seem to assume whatever makes their opponent seem most foolish.
I think those who, for whatever reason, found this joke funny are assuming that everyone who’s complained about is — well, a “fuddy duddy.” That as we criticize this panel we are are typing one-handed, the being used to shield our eyes as we turn away making expressions of shock and horror, trying not to barf in the nearest receptacle.
This isn’t true. I didn’t criticize this scene because I had some kind of horrible reaction to it. The point isn’t that it is “gross,” it’s that it is *juvenile*. It’s a lowbrow, tasteless, whatever you want to call it. We are complaining because we don’t want to read juvenile and lowbrow Spider-Man comics. We want them to be mature and tasteful so that we can actually take them seriously because we want to be emotionally invested in a character we love. Scenes like this make it feel like you are watching Family Guy or something.
Slott is wrong that “lots” of ten year olds read Marvel Comics. A few do, but the overwhelming number of readers are adults. Just look at the tone and subject matter of every other major book that Marvel is publishing right now. You won’t find this kind of Cartoon Network funny-pandering. That’s what’s so frustrating about it. Nobody has to put up with this but us.
@23 Slott’s hardly been “flaming” people. Anyone who thinks his gentle mocking is “flaming” is in for a nasty shock when they encounter anyone who properly flames people.
I actually think Slott might do well to accept that fans want to be left alone to belittle him in private, rather than trying to get in there and tell them to just give it a fair chance. He’s not going to change anyone’s opinion, the people he’s talking to have (for the most part) already made up their mind, he may as well stand back, for the good of his own happiness if nothing else. But hey ho.
Obviously when people start sending abuse directly at him on Twitter, he should feel free to mock them all he likes.
I can’t really feel any sympathy for either of them.
Byrne is notorious for picking fights with Marvel, saying outrageous things and flaming anyone who says “Boo”. Sometimes he goes off without provocation. Slott is a classic example of Small Name/Big Ego, and is notorious for trolling message boards and flaming readers who criticize his plotlines.
@19 – even if it was a “kiss”, it would have been a paasionate kiss… something I’m sure that would be appauling to Peter… if it was something more, then all the more reason for Peter to be appauled…
Christ… use your head…
🙂
I’m confused why anyone would take this one panel joke as a validation that current ASM is terrible and Slott should be fired. Hardly anyone has taken lasting offence at the panel itself and Slott hasn’t said anything rude or confrontational. The book itself has had decent reviews.
And, more on topic, every message from Slott in the exchange with Byrne posted above was calm and reasoned, not angry or cocky – John Byrne was the one being confrontational, and I think he (much more than Slott ever was) is pretty well known for picking internet fights. “John Byrne was angry about it” isn’t a good back-up for any argument.
Oh, yea! ASM 700 is the end? Oh, well, guess what boys and girls – you guessed it: ASM has been dead for quite some time!
And on the subject of the OMDeal, he gave up his marriage so she could live. Why the hell would he be so grossed out if all she did was “kiss” Otto. There aren’t many other ways to take this scene. But if you think there are, then please… elaborate.
Isn’t it wonderful what they’ve done with Aunt May since OMD? Wasn’t the loss of the marriage so worth it?
I’ve only seen the panel that’s the center of this “discussion” online, since I don’t buy new comics anymore. Not really sure how it fits into the whole issue, but was the story so bad, that all anyone can talk about is this panel? Had to give up new issues back in 05, when the wife and I retired from the Air Force. Money was gonna be tight for a bit, and even if I wanted to come back, $3.99 or more for 20 pages, just isn’t very economical to me. Not to mention all the variant covers on just about every issue. So don’t see myself ever coming back into the new comic buying world ever again. I won’t pay for digital issues, cause there’s no guarantee that those will be able to be read again in 20 years or so, when new Tech comes out. I miss buying new comics, but it’s just not worth it. Still have all my complete runs of All spidey issues, from the good old days of 7-11 in the early 70s, till about june 2005. Comics shouldn’t cost more than $1.99, and digital .99 cents. They sure would sell tons more. But that’s just my opinion, and Marvel doesn’t get any money from me anymore for new comicsl
Keep On Thwipin’!!!
Sam
so people are whining b/c of how a young reader might view the panel? Is that why people are upset? What other reasons are people complaining about the panel?
I ll remember it too… for the Aunt May and Doctor Octopus sex joke
I’ll remember it… right alongside with Stan’s, Marv’s, Roger’s, Gerry’s,Len’s & Tom’s… everybody else (with the exception of JMDeMatteuis (sic) is pretty much forgetable…
By the way Mr. Slott, I bet it feels depressing to see that instead of discussing the actual story of ASM 699, people are more interested in talking about that “harmless” and “humorous” joke !!!
I am sure your run will be remembered most fondly by Spider-Man fans
Slott’s love of trolling (and his cockiness) are a symptom of the problem. It isn’t just Slott: It’s the Marvel eds and publishers who share the blame for this anything-to-get-a-buzz/trolll-the-readers/bad-publicity-is-better-than-no-publicity mindset.
There needs to be a big turnover at Marvel before that is reversed (and I suspect there will be if this backfires). I think Slott et al are overestimating how effective sheer shock value will be in promoting the new storyline and retaining readers.
In any case, this feud is laughably unprofessional and Slott/Marvel are rapidly becoming the butt of jokes. I don’t see this ending well.
@7 – I’m a long time ASM reader (since 1975), and how do YOU know how I feel about this?
I found the panel harmless and it made me chuckle, because if Peter is sharing Ock.s memories… any physical interaction between Otto & May would be in his head…
I thought it was a great nod to a small story that happened almost 40 years ago, and it was humourous… and that’s just MY opinion.
But thanks for lumping me into your group…
@3 – fine… if your younger reader thought it was a sex scene, then so be it… just because that ONE child processed it one way doesn’t mean that ALL children are processing it the same way… NOW WHO’s accusing WHO about knowing how children think?
At the end of the day, my point was that it was to every and all individual readerto interpret the scene as they see it…
I hesitate to say it, since I always favored restraint (and Slott and Byrne have had their moments at one time or another), but I have to come out and say it: Slott is behaving like a troll. I mean, the subtext was as sexual as the infamous Van Lente incident and generally as subtle as a tank running oiver a straw hut. For Slott to castigate people for drawing the obviousconclusion is disingenuous at best, naked trolling at worst.
A sad, sad commentary on the state of ASM’s creative team.
Right now, I am happy that I don’t read any current comics at all. All this stuff about in-between panels is silly. Here is a classic and in context. Peter and Mary Jane walk into the apartment and close the door. Did they have sex, make out with no sex, just talk through out the night, or the reader has no opinion on it. The next issue Peter and Mary Jane talk and said basically how great last night was when they were alone. Does that mean they have sex? No. It means whatever they reader decided in their mind, they characters had great time.
Blaming a writer for your imagination isn’t about him, but it is about you. It is YOUR mind at work. Now the question becomes, should Slott have clearly shown what happened? No. Good or bad, it is his story and that was his choice not to do it. Blaming Slott for using a tool that writers have used for decades, is like blaming the news for showing the worst story first. They all do it. You, as the reader, have a choice. Either buy or don’t buy Slott’s Amazing Spider-man, or whatever it is going to be call now. You can blame him for how the story unfolds, but he isn’t at fault for using tools that all writers have used.
You the reader have a choice. Buy or don’t buy. It is really simple. If you don’t like how the story is told or the current status, don’t buy it. Think about it. Why buy something you don’t like? I hate eating liver. I don’t buy liver because I don’t like it. I didn’t like how Marvel and DC have turned their backs on their own history, so I don’t buy comics anymore. I am not angry at them for it anymore because it wasn’t about them, but me. I allow my own loyalty to something cloud my judgement. I am loyal to those comics that brought me joy over the years which is what I am buying now, back issues. The current age of comics are not for me. Understand? Buy what entertains you.
Well, that is it for me. I have said my peace so have fun.
“controversy” is all Mr. Slott cares about because he knows controversy sells comics. So he doesnt give a bloody damn about how long-time readers feel about this. He just wants to get readers’ attention any way he can, even if he has to resort to unfunny or sickening jokes. I wish he instead tried to improve the quality of his stories
@#5 Same here. Slott’s gotta point – while I took it one way, it was done well enough that its open to interpretation.
I gotta side with Slott. Scene is not a big deal and is as gross or as tame as you want it to be.
And even if it was the worst thing, why is that so bad? Is Aunt May not sleeping with Jameson Snr?
It may be a bad joke, but it’s in no way offensive.
The irony is how pathetic a run Byrne had on ASM. Matter of fact, Byrne may well be one of the most over-hyped writer/artists in the biz. Mind you, I think Slott is a hack.
I showed this comic to a ten year old, and they thought exactly the way I did, so please don’t siot there thinking you know how children process these things Mike.
It has nothing to do with the reader’s intelligence… if you’re a 30 something man-child reading comics, then your mind will go to the sex… and that’s fine…
If you’re a much younger reader, then your mind will go to something less icky… but still ICKY to Peter…
I have NO idea why people can’t get over this nor why people are getting upset…
And as a fellow Canuck, I used to like John Byrne quite a bit, but then someone gave him a Superman reboot in 1986, and then within 5 years, he became a giant tool… looks like nothing much has changed over 20 years…
“)
lol I’ve got to agree with John on this one. Slott’s reaction seems to insult the reader’s intelligence.