Podcast 157-Ditko VS Lee, Marvel Canceling Titles, Spider-History 1977

8 Comments

1. I liked Ditko’s stuff after Spidey. Im not into Ayn Rand, so that stuff annoys me, but I still enjoyed Mr. A, The Question, creeper, Speedball etc.

   I wish I could have been there back in the early days of Marvel

   Than I could be on here now telling you who was responsible for what.

2. When I say “rank embarrassment,” I meant Ditko – not Kirby. Oops on my part.

3. “I heard the exact same things from jack Kirby, so Id give Ditko the benefit of the doubt. Its highly doubtful that both of those guys are just assholes trying to claim credit.”

   Kirby once claimed credit for creating Spider-Man when his only contributions were drawing the famous AF #15 cover and suggesting that Peter live with an aunt and uncle. Despite that, he claimed credit for the entire character as if Lee somehow stole it out from under him. That alone is enough to doubt Kirby, but the fact that both he and Ditko were very bitter about their experiences adds a bias. I’m not saying they weren’t screwed over in various ways, nor that Lee deserves all the credit for everything Marvel put out, but their complaints have a severe tinge of jealousy that Lee became the “face” of Marvel. They didn’t exactly have to go through what DC put Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster through. You can argue that Ditko and Kirby weren’t properly compensated (heck that’s a given at least for Kirby), but there’s a reason why Superman’s creators are the poster boys for Creator’s Rights.

   Ditko’s complaining I find especially annoying. He walked off the title over petty disagreements. Kirby had far more valid gripes (hi, Silver Surfer), and his work after splitting with Lee was a rank embarrassment.

   Additionally, I find it suspicious whenever anyone tries to claim the piece of a pie of a successful property – particularly years after the fact, which is why I’ll give Lee the benefit of the doubt. As George Lucas once said, “No one ever sues me over ‘Howard the Duck.'” Again, I’m not saying that Ditko and Kirby didn’t have valid complaints or that Lee deserves sole credit. Nor am I suggesting that Lee only did “30%.” I don’t think anyone’s story is 100% correct. Everybody has a filter and everybody has a bias, which can easily taint memories of what really happened.

4. I wasn’t giving Stan all the credit, just saying if either of them deserve the benefit of the doubt, it’s Stan.

   And I the ring thing was Kirby’s outline, he even did a design sketch that was awful, “Spider-Man” had a web gun. So Stan took it to Ditko because his vision was not inline with Kirby’s. Stan told Ditko he wanted it to be more realistic and asked him to redesign the costume, giving him a plot outline for the first issue.

   So summarize, Stan came up with a teenage hero called “Spider-Man”, took a basic idea to Kirby. Kirby designed a rather silly concept with a magic ring and a web gun. Stan did not feel it matched the concept he was communicating and so took it to Ditko, asking him to pencil and ink the outline STAN WROTE. I have never read any suggestion Stan’s plot did not include the radioactive spider bite, but even if it didn’t it’s hardly what makes the character, it’s a macguffin at best.

   See here –

   http://spiderfan.org/faq/spiderman.html

   When it comes down to it, Stan wrote the plot. Ditko deserves 100% of the credit for creating the fantastic costume. And 100% deserves a “co-creator” credit. However any suggestion that he was MORE responsible for the creation of Spider-Man than Steve is insulting.

   Also since (and this is of course subjective) I believe the Lee/Romita era was actually superior to Ditko’s run, it’s hard to argue he was the driving force of what made Spidey so good.

   What made Marvel so special was the how it differentiated itself from DC, and that was the human aspect of it’s characters and I think there is a rock solid argument to be made that at LEAST 80% of that was drivin by Stan. And the Peter Parker as a character (one of the most important aspects of making the Spidey comics so good) is all Stan Lee, he embodies NOTHING of any characters I read of Ditko’s. In fact I have never read a Ditko book that Stan had nothing to do with that I thought was any good.

5. sorry that was long i just hate when people give stan all the credit for the marvel universe when ditko and especially jack kirby played such a huge role

6. I heard the exact same things from jack Kirby, so Id give Ditko the benefit of the doubt. Its highly doubtful that both of those guys are just assholes trying to claim credit.

   Plus most of the stories Ive heard from many pros and insiders, which of course could be wrong, but they pretty much all say Kirby did most of the actual creating

   It wouldnt surprise me if on spiderman the same is true with ditko

   From what i heard stans idea was to have peter find a ring that gave him spider powers and ditko came up with the radiated spider angle.

   Plus if you read other ditko comics, early spidey reads a lot more like a ditko comic than anything else stan ever worked on. Except the dialogue, that was all stan.

   I highly doubt ditko is just some glory hog. In fact he is the exact opposite. he never goes on publicity or anything when, as co creator of spiderman he could be famous and rich if he cared about such things. The fact that hes such a recluse leads me to believe he dosent really care about that stuff

7. It may be just me, but does MJ’s eye look a little off in that pic?

8. Lol, Steve Ditko. Great costume Steve (best ever), but come on. Stan created how many timeless characters? How many did you create Steve? Oh yes outside of the one Steve came up with and you drew, ZERO.

   Sorry I’m giving Stan the benefit of the doubt on this one.