Spidey Memories#98

48 Comments

1. I lol’d Spider-Dad

2. Bertone, I agree that having the jock feigning that studying is important is crossing the line and I agree that it is offensive. I mean who is he trying to kid??? He is not really studying, he is pretending just so he can get some with his girl. As a former athlete, I am sick and tired of the dumb jock stereotype. I did well on the field and school, so did many of my teammates. They even draw him wearing a turtleneck? WTF? What BMOC would be wearing a turtleneck? Good God! Fire the artist!

   When I read the other posters comments…I see, that…um…oops. It has to do with Sha-Shan…not Flash. Oh…

   Sorry, didn’t see it that way. Stick with the I Hate Betty series…much better.

   PS: Before anyone sez anything…the first paragraph has tongue firmly in cheek.

3. As someone who has an Asian girlfriend (and we cook for eachother!) I find most of what’s been said in the comments by those who are “offended” to be much worse than anything in that comic panel.

   Also, “irregardless” is not an actual word.

4. I made many Asian friends and acquaintances during out time working in Houston, and many of the women still dressed in their nation’s traditional clothing for women. But it depended on whether they were first or second-generation Americans, and what the social occasion might be. The second-generation American women — the daughters, grand-daughters, nieces, and little sisters — were almost completely Americanized, and would only dress traditionally for special events. But some of these thread comments seem to show that their writers don’t believe that first-generation immigrants to America exist.

   Of course it’s a stereotype. Flash is a stereotype. Peter is a stereotype!

5. @37 – Blame the artist, not the writer. But I will hear no bad words against Buscema. This is Sal Buscema, right?

   @38 Re. my 2nd sentence: Obviously we are unfamiliar with sarcasm. Oh, and that was sarcastic too.

   @38 Re. my last sentence: I am sorry if I inferred that you or anyone that thought this was a stereotype was racist. What I meant is that some people (and I’m speaking about the other commenters on here too) are overly sensitive that they point out racism and stereotypes where they really don’t exist. This is just a couple where one person gets a sandwich for the other one. IF (a) Flash ordered her to get him a sandwich, (b) refused to thank her after, (c) ordered her back into the kitchen after, then MAYBE I’d agree this was a stereotype and smacked of racism. But come on, really? She’s in her own apartment, obviously she has some sort of job and is supporting herself, how can she be seen as a stereotype mail-order bride that lives only to serve her man and has no life outside of him?

6. Two-Bit you’re alright by me!

   and I believe this is the most commented Spider memory! Woozer!

7. Look, Bertone, I apologize for implying that you didn’t know the meaning of the words. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I jumped the gun there b/c as someone who spends a lot of time on the Internet I’ve encountered my share of people who don’t.

   I’d also like to point out that I am part of a minority. I’ve found out that minorities for the most part are used to the stereotypes associated with them and often poke fun at them. It’s people outside the minority group who will often “outrage” on behalf of that group. Personally, if I’m okay with a stereotype about ny race, then you, member of a different race, should be okay too.

   I’m not saying you’re outraging here. I just telling you where I am coming from. Hope we’re cool. 8)

8. Beyond that scene (and I took my opinion from strictly that scene alone), after the Sister Sun stuff, Sha Shan basically just became Flash’s arm candy. She was a supporting character for years but once she and Flash broke up she ceased to exist because she had no character outside of him. She was a plot device and a source of tension, nothing else.

9. It also goes hand in hand with how Sha Shan had been written back in those days. In my reading experience, she WAS a stereotype. She had little character other than being Flash’s squeeze, or a major representitive of the Asian American community. This was one of her realatively few appearances compared to everyone else in Peter’s supporting cast, and if she wasn’t doing this she was worrying about Flash, getting threatened by Flash or getting beaten up by Flash. Greg Wesiman did her a world by giving her some OOMPH in ASM #622, because before that her character might as well have been paper mache sent from Vietnam.

10. It was more than just a loving gesture for her to make another sandwich for Flash. Clearly he was starving and was definitely about to eat that pencil. Couple that in with this issue being from the early 80’s and you realize she was also trying to save him from lead poisoning.

11. and FYI at @36, everything in your post was okay except for your second and last sentence. Show your different opinon and explain it all you want, but when you insult a mod, and then are called on it, don’t come back and say “well I stand by and repeat my insult”. It’s not good form.

12. yup and if Marla or Betty had slanted eyes and stereotypical Asian dress then we’d be talkig

13. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It’s my opinion that anyone that says this is racist is reading something into this that isn’t there, and says more about them than the comic.

    As someone already posted, it’s a woman making a sandwich for her boyfriend for crying out loud! There is nothing racist about this. If the writer is guilty of anything, it’s of writing a cutesy scene between a couple. If this had been between Ned and Betty or Peter and MJ or Robbie and his wife or JJJ and Marla or etc no one would be saying “oh, this is wrong she is written totally subservient to him, it’s almost like she’s a caricature of a Vietnamese mail-order bride”, they’d be saying “oh, it’s a girlfriend/wife/whatever making a sandwich for her significant other out of the goodness of her heart.”

    You *can* find subtle racism in old comics, but in this instance it says more about the reader than the writer.

14. Ah here I thought the point was that,

    my comment says more about me then the panel,

    I’m a nut,

    I’m looking to get offended,

    I don’t know the meaning of the words racism or sexism,

    I am think skinned and need to get over.

    Uy. Sheesh, if Wacker said some of these things about some of you it would be a field day.

    To those whose replies were merely “I don’t see it'” or “I disagree” or “In my experience..”, I thank you for showing me another viewpoint without taking potshots.

15. The reply we didn’t get to hear from Sha Shan was that she gets to be on top this time, bringing balance to their relationship! 🙂

16. But that’s the whole point, Aaron. Pointing out cheesy dialogue and other artifacts of the time, especially things that wouldn’t fly in a modern comic. That’s kinda the whole aim of the humor here.

17. Chessy dialogue? In a ’80s comic book? Surely you jest.

18. @Donovan: “They all look like refugees from Fu Manchu!”

19. If anything, it’s written badly. It’s written badly because Sha Shan’s dialogue is cheesy. That, coupled with what she’s wearing and what she’s doing, to me, makes it seem stereotypical. If other people don’t see it fine, but no one is looking to be offended. That’s just completley wrong.

    And FWIW, check out Sha Shan’s first appearance written by Stan Lee. That makes this look like a CNN special.

20. Call me thin-skinned, but like I said it goes beyond “woman making sandwich” for me. It’s way she’s drawn and what she’s wearing coupled with that. Feel free to disagree, but don’t put motives like “thin skinned” and “doesn’t know how to use words” or “looking for something to be angry about” into my mouth.

21. Let’s see …

    (1) she’s wearing some kind of qipao or ao dai for some reason
    (2) her eyes are so slanted that they’re literally at a 45-degree angle
    (3) she seems to exist solely as a sandwich-making machine

    Yeah, that looks pretty offensive to me.

22. Offesive? Really? It’s a girl making her man a sandwich, for crying out loud! I am really sick or people so thin-skinned that they find every little thing offensive. Get over it.

    Rant over.

23. If you don’t think it’s racist or sexist, that’s fine. I don’t either. But I don’t understand the personal attacks in a few of these posts. Bertone is a pretty funny guy when it comes to pulling out ridiculous bits from older comics. Just because he might have missed the boat on this one doesn’t mean he’s a nut or has a poor grasp of English or of social norms.

    Has no one on this board ever been involved in a joke that was only funny at the moment? You’ve never tried to share a bit of humor and ended with “You had to be there”?

    Some people like to act like jerks. From my experience, the author of this post isn’t one of those people. Not so sure about a couple of the commenters.

24. I’m married to a vietnamese woman and I don’t find this offensive. If Flash was sitting in front of the TV with a beer it would have been closer to sexism, but I don’t find it awkward that if your boyfriend or girlfriend comes over to study, you might try to help him/her focusing on the studying by serving some meal. Regardless of sex or race. That being said, vietnamese people as I have come to know them are very proud of their food and bringing guests food. Is it racism to point that out or is it a cultural feature? Stereotypical, maybe, but I don’t see the big harm.

25. @Bertone – I’m glad you do. Not everyone who uses a keyboard does, however.

    Also, I’m glad the dialogue makes it clear that she’s in a romantic relationship with Flash and not in servitude. 8)

26. I know the meaning of the words. In the picture she looked like she was being portrayed as his inferior servant. Its subjective so that’s not the case for everyon and it’s cool that you see it differently..but please no accusing me not knowing words.

27. Flash makes his wimmin make im sammiches, Flash loves his sammiches

28. This is just like the guys always throwing around the word “misogyny” when they don’t know the meaning of the word. “Misogyny” means hatred of women. “Racism” means thinking that one race is superior to another. “Sexism” means thinking that one gender is superior to another.

    I saw none of those things on the panel. At no point did I see Flash and Sha Shan and thought, “Boy, that Sha Shan sure is inferior to Flash, in more ways than one!”

29. Speaking as one of the folk who was “looking to get offended”,

    To me it was a combination of things. It was the way she was drawn for one. I didn’t find it very racially accurate (not that I’m an expert on Vietnamesse). The clothes she was wearing also had something to do with it. The sandwich and her race certainly contributed to it, I drew my implications from other areas.

    It’s subjective though. Perhaps it’s not so bad if everyone else is saying they don’t see it. I can only speak for myself andd say that at first glance the first panel just killed me. Her face, her clothes, the words she says and the general scene. It’s more than “oh she’s Asian so it’s wrong”….at least for me.

30. Okay so let me get this straight.

    If I have a girlfriend then the only way she can make a sammich for me, or presumably anything else, is if she’s white? Because if she’s white it’s fine, but if she’s anything else but white then… it’s racist. So if I ever date, say, a Cuban chick, and she wants to make me a sammich, I have to tell her “NO! That’s racist!”

    Seems extreme and pretty insane. I could just let a chick who digs me make me a sammich and even vice versa. That seems perfectly reasonable. Or is it racist if I make her a sammich and she’s not white? I’ve eaten dinners – a lot of dinners – with Mexican friends at their homes before. Was I a racist that whole time?

    This is a case of folks *looking* to get offended. Real hard. And it’s ridiculous. 8)

31. @17

    If she’s white and gets her white boyfriend a sandwich, then clearly there’s not any racism. Maybe some sexism, but that’s about it. But if she’s Asian and getting her white boyfriend a sandwich, then yes, there might be some racism to be found, especially depending on the context. In this particular instance, you have the dialogue, the kimono, and the image of a white Flash hard at work, while the Asian Sha Shan is simply there to fix her guy a sandwich. It all fits into pre-existing racist conventions or concepts, whether it wants to or not. It’s certainly true however that not all readers may be aware of the racial implications, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

    I too saw “a chick who digs a dude and makes him a sandwich” on first read, but after Bertone’s comments saw it another way. I’m sure if I had a different frame of mind at the time I read it, or were that much more knowledgeable in racism towards Asians, I might have picked up on it instantly. That’s just me of course.

32. So if she’s white and she gets her white boyfriend a sammich, it’s fine… but if she’s Asian and gets her white boyfriend a sammich, it’s racist?

    Sorry, not seeing it. I see a chick who digs a dude and makes him a second sammich while he’s studying.

33. @hornacek

    But it’s not two white people, it’s a white man and an Asian woman, and a scene like that one is going to have racist or stereotypical implications, irregardless of intentions. I’m not sure, but I’m assuming it plays into the Asian “mail-order bride” stereotype that Donovan mentioned. I’m guessing the kimono doesn’t help. Honestly, just the fact that she’s a woman should raise some flags, but that kind of sexism is so accepted and subtle that I wouldn’t bother mentioning it.

    Who was doing the art on Spectacular at that time?

34. Ditto on the not finding this offensive at all. Unless you further elaborate, you are just saying things.

35. Last night, my Asian girlfriend made me a sandwich . . . it was delicious. She wasn’t wearing a kimono, though. Don’t find this offensive at all . . .

36. Are you pointing at the “Night as silent as the movie they’re watching”?

37. I’m sorry, but I don’t get it, either.

38. I maintain that it’s a pretty bad scene.

39. What kind of nut would read this and find something offensive?

40. My wife and I always bring things to each other out of kindness. I had no idea we were breaking so many cultural norms that would offend people. ????

    Sorry Bertone, I don’t get it.

41. So an Asian girl can’t get her boyfriend a sandwich without it being a cliche? I think most girlfriends have gotten their boyfriend something to eat (hey now!) at one point in their relationship without it being either a racist stereotype cliche or indicating that she is basically a servant to him. Sorry Asian girls, you can’t have a white boyfriend because it’s racist!

    If it was offensive as you indicated she would have said something like “here is your meal as requested, Master Flash” and he would have said “About time. Mmm, this is a good sandwich, you have earned my thanks. Now back to your room!”

    Again, you’re reading too much into this. If this was two white people no one would say this was racist. It’s barely sexist – yes, she’s getting him a sandwich but it looks like she’s just being nice and there’s nothing to indicate it’s because she’s acting like a servant.

42. It’s an asian mail-order bride cliche.

43. Add my name to the I don’t get it crowd

44. Yeah, what’s so bad about a girl making a sandwich for her boyfriend? He’s not ordering her to serve him, he’s studying and she’s making him something to eat. If this was two white people would you be making this statement? I think your comment says more about you then the comic.

45. Yeah- I don’t get it either.
    ?

46. I don’t get it. What’s so bad? That she’s making a sandwich?

47. I feel unclean after reading this.

48. *facepalm* The horror…the stereotypical horror…