Finding Gwen Stacy part 3: Betty and Veronica

This was suppose to be posted Monday, but I was  having some computer problems and couldn’t load the images properly. I post the next part this weekend and then we’ll go back to the Monday/Friday schedule.

We are now entering the era that many creators fondly remember. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen an interview where a Spidey writer or editor talks about the “Betty and Veronica” days. The golden age of Spidey which they say was ruined when Gwen died.

As we will get into with later parts, it didn’t quite happen that way. The “Betty/Veronica” era ended much earlier, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
When we last left Gwen, Romita had mellowed her out. Then Mary Jane entered the picture. Now what?

Issue 43

Peter has just finished his first date with MJ and is infatuated with her. He barely thinks about Gwen as he was right before the date.

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Peter is already comparing MJ to Gwen in his head. Sure she may not be jumping to defend him, but notice how she makes that subtle comment about him being at the top of his class? She is trying to flirt with him but is too wrapped up in his war with Flash to notice.  Flash also notices Gwen complimenting Pete on his brains and wastes no time trying to make Peter look small to Gwen. Flash being drafted was the Spider-Man strips way of being relevent. Flash’s time in Nam, and his girlfriend from Vietnam Sha Shan, are rarely mentioned today due to obvious continuity issues. Still I’d like to see Sha Shan again.

Issue 44

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Both Gwen and MJ wind up dating EVERY MAN at the table! “Spider-Man: Blue” has an interesting take on this scene. It’s a good series, but I consider it an alternate universe because it presents too many continuity problems, but I like how Peter implies that he brought MJ by to show her off. Look at Gwen in the panels, she is sitting pretty close by Flash, then as soon as Pete comes pulls away and makes room for him so they could “study”. Maybe Flash is picking on Peter because he is “being Flash” or maybe he is aware that it’s a “Liz Allan” situation all over again. That is why he reminds everyone that HE is the one going into the army. I am not sure, I have to pull out my FF issues, but I think the Whitey Mullins was a subplot in FF at the time.

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Gwen does not like MJ one bit at first. She is used to being the “beauty queen” (Harry’s words, not mine), popular girl and center of attention. Now MJ has everyone drooling over her, including Peter, the one boy who wouldn’t give her a tumble. Remember her and Flash are dating, but she is making another snide comment to him. This not the first time we have seen that. She is obviously growing frustrated with Flash.

What is happening on that page is a perfect metaphor for the problems Stan and John were facing. Mary Jane was stealing scenes from Gwen and became the focus of whatever pages she was on. Gwen was suppose to be the girl Peter would end up with though, so they had to make her more interesting….
In a bit you’ll see how some of those attempts worked out…

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Gwen, and everyone else, assumes that Peter is daydreaming about MJ. The Ditko Gwen would’ve sworn vengence on his soul, but she has already started to mellow.

Issue 45

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Despite whatever problems she is having with him, Flash still seems to be dating Gwen. I am not even going to comment about the whole “asking Harry to ask Pete for her” thing. We all know what she is doing there! We also now have Peter resuming his crush on Gwen which was forgotten after he gazed upon MJ. Later, Peter see’s Harry and MJ out together and begins to realize that maybe MJ is a great girl, but too shallow for him.

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I know it’s his thought balloons, but MAN, Peter is sure critical of Silver Age MJ!

Issue 46

Harry has just asked Peter to be his new roommate.

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According to that, Gwen is also still dating Harry behind the scenes as well. Why? Well they have been good friends for years, as seen in many flashbacks. The Stacy/Osborn family goes way back. They run in the same circles and do have a lot in common. But it will become evident that Harry clearly cares more for Gwen than he she does for him. So why is she dating him? Well for starters it is a break from her relationship with Flash, who she has clearly grown annoyed with. She has her pick of guys, but Harry is one of the only ones who can understand and know her. Plus, I don’t mean to sound mean, but it gets Peter’s attention. I would imagine that given their similar backgrounds, their may have been some pressure (not from their parents but others in their rich social circle) to have the Stacy/Osborn bloodline join…just not in the way JMS envisioned.

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The ironic thing is, Peter is now wondering if Gwen playing “hard to get” is what is turning him on, which is the very tactic that got Gwen to notice him! Gwen basically ignores BOTH Peter and MJ in the story, to the extent of interrupting their conversation to ask Harry to dance with her, WHEN PETER IS RIGHT THERE. She knows what she is doing. By the way, that is Fredrick Foswell/”The Patch”. He was a former Ditko villain who reformed and became a member of the supporting cast. A great character and one of the first members of the supporting cast to die, but he is RARELY mentioned today in the Spider-Comics, but thankfully used awesomely in the SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN cartoon.

The “Gwen looks so hot dancing” was part of Stan’s newfound mission to stop Mary Jane from overshadowing Gwen. More of that coming up…

Issue 47

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Gwen obviously still has her pick of admirers, and their dialogue indicates that although she was dating Harry, her relationship with Flash was somewhat serious.

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Gwen is being pretty vengeful here and enjoying it. She is getting back at Pete for all those months of ignoring her. Once again, notice how she subtlety makes fun of Mary Jane and makes a point of asking Harry to be her date WITH PETER RIGHT THERE. She is having some fun right now for sure. By the way, how serious could Flash and Gwen have been if SHE IS TAKING ANOTHER DATE TO HIS OWN GOODBYE PARTY!?! That is pretty messed up. Perhaps making the date with Harry was done spur of the moment just twist the knife for Peter. Or maybe there is more going on behind the scenes with her and Flash that we hadn’t realized.

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Hmm Harry. Possessive much?

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Some people list this as Peter and Mary Jane’s first date. I don’t think so. Dialogue elsewhere implies that they have done some small casual dates in between the panels. Technically I consider their first meeting the first date.

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This is what Stan Lee talks about in interviews all the time. He says he tried and tried to make Gwen as interesting as Mary Jane and clearly that is what this scene was trying to do accomplish. The problem was Gwen lost a lot of spark and spunk when Ditko left and became even duller when MJ appeared. More on that later. Oh and Harry knows what he is doing egging those girls on.

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Mary Jane’s comment will give some of “Did MJ know” retcon debaters some discussion.

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This is the start of the Flash/Peter friendship, although he still bullies him a bit, they act more civil to each other and they finally become good friends for reasons we’ll discuss in later installments. Oh and that this point Norman Osborn has amnesia and doesn’t remember being the Green Goblin. Kind of weird seeing him defend Spidey to Jameson.

Issue 48

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Well now Gwen is trying desperate measures to win Peter (and the male population) away from MJ. She obviously did this on purpose. This was not just Gwen’s attempt, but Stan and John’s as well. They are trying to make Gwen more appealing but this step worked against them as well. Gwen now looks softer, so as a result, Stan writes her softer and Romita continues to draw her softer. Remember the Marvel Method of writing comics?  Note Professor Warren. This can be read as him cutting him down in front of the class and Gwen particularly. Remember he loves Gwen and probably has seen the way she looks at Peter.

Issue 49

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When I did this series on Livejournal, a user called Sandoz called these type of scenes “the floating heads of guilt”. That has forever entered into my Spider-vocabulary. This is Gwen’s first inclusion into “the floating heads of guilt”.

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Flashbacks talk of a deep MJ and Gwen friendship, but this is one of the few times we see them doing SOMETHING together. I suppose the girls are curious about each other since they are rivals and decided to hang out together. I can only imagine what they talked about, but I bet you it was catty.

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Once again Mary Jane steals every scene she is in.
Issue 50

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Peter is once again questioning Mary Jane’s depth and their relationship. Gwen is also being more openly flirty with Peter. She is no longer in high school anymore and is starting to realize the games, the pride and “hard to get” routine is childish. She is growing up and is changing her tactics of catching Pete. Look how she reacts to him declining her invitation here and compare it to what I posted in Part 2.

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Gwen is frustrated because she is being as clear and flirty as possible and he STILL DOESN’T GET THE MESSAGE!

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She is doing everything short of saying, “I love you, let’s date” and he still isn’t catching on.

Issue 51

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Notice Gwen isn’t being quick to deny her attraction to Pete or make a catty remark to MJ like she would’ve about 10 issues earlier. Harry with the whole “my date” comment shows he is getting in deeper with Gwen, but it’s only in his mind. This creates….problems.

Issue 52

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Flash is back? When he went into the army he returned a dozen times for “visits” so his absence wasn’t really that felt.

By now Peter has become so much a part of the gang that they will even wait for him before throwing the party. Flash even asks where he is when he comes in. The supporting cast is now “Archie and the gang” and the girls are “Betty and Veronica”. The “Betty and Veronica” era won’t last much longer though, and it doesn’t end at the Brooklyn Bridge…

Next: Peter and Gwen finally go on their first date! But they are chaperoned by a creepy old man in love with Gwen! Ewww To Be Continued