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tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Discuss anything non-comic related. Also post any fan fiction and fan art not related to Spider-Man: Crawl Space or Crawl Space Avengers.

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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:02 pm

People who make minimum wage would be fine under the flat tax because the would get a bigger return at tax time.


I don't understand what you mean here. How does getting back the extra money (above the 5%) that was withheld from their paychecks cushion the blow of the 5% itself? This doesn't address the problem that, even once they get their refunds, the 5% taken out of their paycheck cuts into the bare essentials needed to survive.

I am sorry I really do think those people need to look at their life choices and make changes to improve their situation. It goes back to accountability. People think they are entitled to this that and the other are wrong. You are entitled to nothing. You have to earn everything you need and want. It is harsh I know, but it is a lesson I had to learn the hard way.


People are at least entitled to not having the system burden them unfairly when they're already at a disadvantage. Here's a fact: the united states of America has the second lowest social mobility in the developed world. According to a Kent University study, 70.9% of adults in the lower income quartile were in the lower half of income distribution as children, and well over half of those were in the bottom quartile, not just the lower half. If you are poor in America, chances are it has less to do with your life choices than it has to do with the fact that you were born poor: you went to a lousy public school with no books and incompetent teachers, you didn't have books in your home, you didn't have educated parents, you had to worry more about dodging the crossfire of warring drug gangs than studying when you were growing up, you were surrounded by drug addicts and prostitutes instead of positive role models, and so on. Even if that person really wanted to improve his or her situation, they still have to compete with the people who have had every advantage. There are people who climb the social ladder in this country, of course, but it happens much more rarely here than in other developed countries. Hard work isn't enough. You need to work hard AND be lucky. If you are already at a disadvantage in the latter regard, a tax rate that cuts into your basic needs for survival is going to make it harder to pull yourself out and make the American class structure more rigid.

Like you, I believe people need to earn what they want and need. I just want everyone to have an equal opportunity to do so.

Back to public voting on spending. Those example where there is human suffering or act of God would not require a vote. That is a given.


It isn't a given in the sense that you'd have to specify that in the statute. If you didn't, judges like Scalia and Thomas who look to the literal meaning of the language would declare any such emergency spending illegal and the more liberal judges would insert their own ideas of common sense. Dealing with all the exceptions and complications that arise when you apply general principlals to real life is how your ten page bill turns into encyclopedia-length tomes.

The American public are smarter than you think.


I'm not making a judgement on how smart they are, just how informed they are on matters of policy. I'm under no misconception here; I've studied this in college and worked on a congressional campaign.

I hate when someone try to discount the American people's think and expects them to vote on policy maker. Either they know what they are doing or they don't. Why vote at all? Just make all public office life terms. I trust the American people to do what is best for their country.


I think what you're saying here is if they aren't capable of voting on specific policies, then that must mean they aren't capable of picking leaders to do it for them. I don't agree with this logic. You don't know how to fix teeth, but that doesn't mean you can't pick a good dentist.

Let me clear this up a little. The public vote won't deal with those subjects that you brought; it would deal with things like the bridge to nowhere. These little personal issues that Reps have and try to get pass without thinking the cost. There has been a incredible lack of accountability with how our money is spent. I know my idea of public vote on how the US Government spends money is unrealistic, but my whole point is that we haven't been pay any attention to how our money is spent.

We need to look at who is the biggest spenders of our money and what it was for. Examine where the money went and why; there has been a lot money spent to appease special interest groups and campaign donors. It is time for it to end. It time for us to say," You will not spend my money like that anymore." We allow this to continue without protest or yelling. It is time for us to become that voice that says,"Stop" and not only during elections. It has to be done now!


If you're talking about people making themselves more informed and getting more active politically, then I can get behind that.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby Berserkfury819 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:33 pm

Seeing as how I'm one of the Staunch Capitalists here on the board (Give me some back up here Thrawn!) thought I'd post this. Its not mine, but I like how it sums up the American Tax System. Have a nice day Folks!


Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

If you understand this, then no explanation is needed. If you do not, then no explanation is possible.
Last edited by Berserkfury819 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby tschamp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:22 pm

Chris,

My whole point about the flat tax is that everyone pays. No loopholes nothing. Just a simple flat tax which in turn will bring more money into those program we currently have that help the poor. We are never going to agree about that because I have see people that make six figures pay no tax because they found a loophole. I also seen poor people pay no taxes because their level of income. Everyone has to pay. Even if it seems unfair to some with more or less. It time to stop ducking this issue. Everyone pays. Some will be force to change, but the change will have postive effect more than a neagtive effect. It also can be said that those that make the most in this country will be paying great deal more under the flat tax. Intresting that wasn't brought up.

Everyone complains about the current tax system which is in worst shape then the health care system. Someone comes up with a idea how to fix it, everyone runs yelling,"What about the poor! What about the poor!" Well, I was poor. I worked hard to get to the point where my head is barely above the water of debt. There will be more money for the poor if the flat tax with no loopholes is done. Just no one wants to change the system because of fear and use the poor as an excuse.

I would beat the shit out of ten guy for opening his mouth. Sometimes saying nothing is the best route to go.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Aug 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Tschamp, I'm all for everyone paying and closing loopholes and all that. I just think the percentage someone pays should reflect their ability to pay without cutting into the essentials for survival.

I appreciate that you've managed to work yourself out of poverty. I don't know what your background is so I'm not going to compare you to the statistics. However, the statistics are there and they do tell us that America has one of the most rigid class structures in the developed world. It's not like a Wendy's janitor is going to have to pay taxes and suddenly realize it's time to be an investment broker. The majority of Americans do not enjoy that sort of social mobility.

I doubt that closing loopholes will bring in so much more money for the poor that it outweighs cutting the overall tax rate into a quarter of what it is now (which is what a 5% flat tax would do). Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Berserk:
I'm glad you mentioned you didn't write it, because now I feel better being blunt about how outright deceptive that is.

First of all, the set up is not a representation of the American economic system. If this represented America, the ten guys would not all be making a friendly agreement on how to split the bill. The five or so richest of the group would be the only ones with real influence over how the "bill" and the "beer" was split because of their superior connections, resources, and education. Half of them would want to give the poorer folks a pittance of "beer" and the other half would argue that the poor guys only have themselves to blame for being too ignorant and deprived to work the beer-buying game to their advantage.

This brings me to the other flaw. The story has no account of how the rich man got his money in the first place and why the 4 poor guys have nothing. If this is America, the one rich man is overwhelmingly likely to have come from wealthy parents and the opposite is true for the poor ones. The idea that the poor ones are somehow "drinking for free" is absurd. The rich ones, statistically speeking, are the ones who came into this world priviledged and advantaged.

Which brings me to my next point. The way the story is told makes it seem like everyone is getting the same amount or the same kind of beer. Since the beer is supposed to represent the public services paid for with tax dollars, you only have to think about this for a second to realize how patently stupid this is. The wealthier people in America get far superior schools (you need to go to an inner city school to see how appalling the discrepency is), superior services like plumbing and sanitation, superior roads, and superior safety (the cops don't even go to the LA ghetto my mom works in even if you call 911). This faaaar outweighs the pittance of welfare (which this story calls "drinking for free" HA!). The people who grow up with the better resources tend to do better. They get more and better "beer" while the "beerless" get poorer and stupider because of the disadvantages they inherited.

You also gotta keep in mind that the metaphor of "beer" makes it sound like we're talking about something fun and extraneous instead of basic resources needed for human dignity or even survival like education, fire departments, national defense, and so on.

What exactly is the $20 supposed to represent? A tax cut? If it were like a real tax cut, the amount of beer being served would decrease too just like public programs are cut when the government decides to lower taxes. Anyway, since I already explained how inaccurate it is to characterize public services as beer of which everyone gets equal portions, I don't need to go into the whole thing about whose tab is reduced by $1 and whose is reduced by $10. It has no parellel in real life because, while the rich one is paying the most, he's also buying his beer at an exclusive pub that would be nearly impossible for the others to get into. The fight at the end, in real life, would NOT be about the poor guys attacking the rich one because he got a bigger refund for the same share of beer. In reality, the poorer guys would be angry because the rich one is getting a massive refund on his exclusive beer from his exclusive pub while they're stuck drinking the equivilant, if you really want this metaphor to accurately illustrate American disparities, of the piss from a bum's diaper.

As I final note, I really dislike the ending that says, "If you understand this, then no explanation is needed. If you do not, then no explanation is possible." That statement effectively shuts down any critical thought on the part of the reader.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby Berserkfury819 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:11 pm

Sorrt Chris, I meant to say tax system, not economic system. I edited my post, although you'll probably still disagree with it. As a tax analogy, I think it works rather well.

I do agree with you that the school system is beyond broke, but its not entirely the rich at fault, at least not in Detroit. Please keep in mind I am speaking about Detroit and from my own experiences, whether or not this is applicable to LA, or Denver I can't say as I don't live there. 1. Detroit is completely under control of the Democrats. The Mayor, the local representative, both State Senators and our Governor are all Democrats. There are a few Republicans in some of the surrounding suburban areas, and the rural areas up north. But for the most part, Democrats control the majority of the decision making in Detroit, including ones about the schools. 2. A few years ago there was a Millionaire philanthropist (whose name I can't for the life of me remember) who was goingto donate money to Detroit so that they could build around 20 new Public Charter Schools with better facilities and equipment so that Detroit children could get a better education. The Detroit Public School Techers complained to the city council, saying it wasn't fair and that they would be out of jobs, so the schools shouldn't be built. Let me repeat this. Teachers didn't want new and better schools built! And this guy was going to pay for everything himself. After the complaints made the news he decided that if Detroit didn't want the schools, he wouldn't give it to them. So lets recap, rich man decides to give to the less fortunate, less fortnate tell him to go away. How is this the rich man's fault exactely?

And as someone who went to a private school for awhile, and later went to public. Believe me, private schools are not all they're cracked up to be. America's schools suck, period.

Another point here. Once again, speaking from my own experience. Living in Detroit, I have a decent amount of family members who work (or worked) in the auto industry. The Unions have driven the auto industry into the ground. Yes, part of it is the car companies making crappy cars that can't compete with German or Japanese models, but the other problem is that the auto unions will make no consessions anywhere. You can't make a deal with any of them because they are completely unwilling to negotiate with anyone. As a result jobs and productivity, as well as the relationship between the managers and the workers had suffered.

Simply for the record Chris, because as you yourself said you were kind of blunt, and I sure I came off as kind of harsh in this response. I want you to know that despite our political differences I respect you immensly. I may not agree with your politics but I do enjoy talking to you, and your comments on the comic boards often bring a smile to my face. Good Luck with law school.
Last edited by Berserkfury819 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:22 pm

All the points I made in my last post are just as applicable if you replace "economic system" with "tax system." If I have to repeat one point, it's that the idea that the rich pay more for an equal social benefit is flatly false. Look at how we fund schools.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:38 pm

Simple solution to the Flat Tax on the poor problem. If you make under $20,000 or $30,000 you don't pay taxes.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby tschamp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:46 pm

I willing to listen to how that would help the poor FSU. I just think there is too many programs out there for people that abused their current situation. Let me put this way. We need take a real hard look on how things are done. What works keep, what doesn't get rid of or at least redesign it.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:57 pm

FSUSpiderFan wrote:Simple solution to the Flat Tax on the poor problem. If you make under $20,000 or $30,000 you don't pay taxes.


What if I make $29,999. If I work an extra hour do I suddenly have to pay 5% of the whole thing, or just what I make above $30,000?

I want to get to beserk's post when I have more time to think about it.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:25 pm

If the poor don't pay taxes then that is their leg up. Then the government gets out of social programs altogether. We need to encourage private charity because the poor get better assistance that way anyways.

We need to get back to the Federal government being in charge of as few things as possible, defense and a few key areas. More power needs to go to individual states, local governments, and the people.

I'm getting closer and closer to being a radical libertarian the older I get because I look at both parties screwing up everything so I want both to have less power not more. Both parties want to intrude on our lives, its just people picking their poison.
-The far right wants to control what happens in your bedroom and the left wants to control your thermostat. I say the government needs to stay out of my house altogether unless I'm impeding on some elses rights. I recently heard that if you have a sex change you can marry the same sex that you used to be. Proof positive that the government needs to get away from marriage altogether. Have civil unions for everyone. If people want to call themselves married that is up to them and possibly their religious institution. All the people fearing that gay marriage will hurt families need to look at what is really tearing apart kids lives, divorce and abuse.
-The right wants to mingle religion with the government and the left seems to discourage religion altogether. We need to respect everyones rights equally and remember that atheism is a religious belief structure too.
-The right and the left have decided that corporate welfare is good. How about we just let companies who screw up fail?
-Illegal immigration is a wash because the Republicans are in the pocket of big business who wants slave wages and the Democrats are salivating over all those potential voters if there is amnesty. We need immigrants they just need to come in the front door in an orderly fashion, otherwise you are supporting creating a permanent lower class of near slave laborers. We're fighting a war on drugs that will never end because we're wasting effort on Marijuana and prosecuting the addicts rather than putting the efforts on cutting off the supplies again on the border problem.
-The Right wants to drill here and the far left wants to live off of hemp. How about we drill for all of our own resources and use the profits to pay for alternative energy development.
-If you want to still have the government still pay for schools then choice is the key. Each kid is given an equal allotment and the parents choose the private school of their choice. If all schools were private then there would be more competition to get those dollars and be the best. Raising teacher pay and helping the kids more. The Right and the left have both taken turns calling people unpatriotic for protesting policy. How about we all just celebrate that we can have these arguements?
- On health care we need reform but not a universal 1300 page plan that makes no sense. Tort reform, competition across states for insurance, private co-ops that can insure high risk people, and tons of other solutions are waiting instead of spending another trillion dollars of China's money
-Guns? The constitution guarantees us the right to one but be sensible... Have background checks and no AK-47's please.
-Defense...just kick ass

OK rant done for now. I'm sure I pissed both sides off so I'll take a step back before the punches start flying.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:57 pm

Actually I'm not pissed off. All of that sounds reasonable to me. The only amendment I'd make is that the allotment each kid gets for school should be need-based. Otherwise you'll have high-income families using public funds to supliment their own money to send their kids to super duper private schools while everyone else only has access to the bare bones affordable by the allotment alone. I have no problem with richer people sending their kids where they want, but it isn't fair to ask the public to subsidize it.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby Berserkfury819 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:03 pm

Actually FSU, like Chris, I think a lot of that is very reasonable and I could get behind much of it.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby tschamp » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:12 pm

I am for everyone expressing there ideas. I am not pissed off because I agree with most things said here.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby FSUSpiderFan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:16 pm

Sweet. I wasn't serious about the punches but people seem so attached to parties and ideology. I thought it was common sense but it seems very rare these days. If that brought you together, maybe I should run for office. Oh wait, both parties would reject me...a sign that we need a viable third and possibly fourth party.

Chris has a good point on education funds not being spread to the rich.
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Re: tschamp talks politics. Brace yourselves!

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:20 pm

Berserk, I don't have much love for teacher's unions these days either. I think they are a big part of the problem because they shut out competition from the most qualified people. I think the way we fund education through property taxes is another big part of the problem. However you distribute the blame, the poorest are the ones who get screwed over the most. The kids going to school in Bloomfield Hills have a lot more resources being fed into their development than kids in Detroit. This is why the idea that the guy who's paying $59 at the bar is partaking in the same round of drinks as everyone else is so flawed.

FSU, I would like to see more viable options in American politics, too.
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