"Bland New Day " now up

Discuss your thoughts on the articles written by J.R. Fettinger from the www.spideykicksbutt.com website.

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"Bland New Day " now up

Post by MadGoblin » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:23 pm

Last edited by MadGoblin on Thu Sep 11, 2008 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ScarletSpider1138 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:37 pm

Sorry to sound like a mindless sycophant, but I completely agree. This is exactly like previous "reboots" of the character -- the influx of supporting cast and all the mysteries especially.

Again, like you, the reason I'm not intrigued by Menace or Jackpot is because having seen how well the HobGoblin mystery or Green Goblin V, or ANY of Howard Mackie's post-reboot storylines went (for the less informed -- nowhere fast), even though everyone's saying this'll get resolved in the Annual -- I say we're lucky and Marvel respects its fans if we get ANY resolution of these subplots, much less by the end of the year.

Also, I must comment that I do tend to agree with pretty much everything on SKB (minus some Venom, Maximum Carnage, and Clone Saga bashing here and there), however, this is not because I'm an oldtime fan like MadGoblin -- I'm only eighteen!

Then again, I might be too old a fan for Marvel -- I've been reading since Maximum Carnage! So I remember the Clone Saga (cardinal sin) -- though I suspect my PRIMARY SIN has been reading back issues and all those trade paperbacks Marvel wants us to BUY but apparently not READ.

As a side note -- I probably like Venom, Carnage, Scarlet Spider, and the Clone Saga precisely because it's what I grew up reading, and not for any logical reasons.

But Peter Parker #75 still rocks.

*looks up* Dammit! I will make one post on these boards that doesn't end up rambling offtopic!!

In short for those who dislike reading: ScarletSpider1138 agrees with SKB's new article.
If I just read ASM #1-38 over and over again, it's like Ditko never left... right, guys? Guys... ?

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Post by Kaine » Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:28 pm

Very interesting article. I didn't realize there was so much in common between the old reboot by Mackie and this one. I dropped Spider-man soon after the clone saga since spinner racks disappeared and didn't pick it up again till a couple issues after Mary Jane "died", well into the reboot, when a comic book store opened in my area.

I've been liking a lot of Brand New Day (hated Freak arc though) but also I'm judging it in comparison to the last year of stories and OMD which were horrible. In a year or two my perspective is likely to change when I reread them.

It was very weird to read the quote about how fans in the 90s didn't realize the character was broke and needed to be fixed. Hell we kids of the 90's liked it and I still like the clone saga. It was fun to read then and I still think its a fun read even though I can look back now and see what went wrong and know it was a trainwreck. Maybe thats what the current editors are doing they are looking at Stans stuff they grew up on, that they thought was fun and thinking the Spider-man doesn't look like the one here so it must be broke. That comment gave me a whole new perspective on whats been going on.

That comment is like some adult seeing a kid enjoying playing with a pile of legos stacking them, combining them, making flying cars and having fun. The adult picks up the instruction manual that shows the sets supposed to be a house, the adult decides to "help" and takes the legos away and brings back a lego house. Oh sure the house looks great and followed the working formula but it was a lot more fun for the kid before when it could be anything.

Sometimes I think this is what editors do, new writers are like the kids, they come in and see unlimited possibility with a pile of legos. Their imagination gets going and then the editor comes in and say no your doing it wrong your supposed to build this. In SPider-man Human Torch and Swing Shift SLott got to play with the legos, in Brand New day he's had to follow to follow the instructions. In JMS early run he got to play with the bricks and a lot of it was fun, then the editorial decisions started interfering, events started happening and now the legos have become a house again. Spider-man is back to using the old formula according to the instruction manual. Its good and it works for now but as soon as the adult (current powers that be) leave the kids going to knock the house over and turn it back into a pile of legos where anything's possible with the pieces lol.

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Post by ScarletSpider1138 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:17 pm

See the comment about "the readers didn't know it was broken because they've been reading it only recently and have nothing to compare it to" comment enforces my opinion that Marvel basically hates it's fanbase and is made up of jerks who want comics like in the 70s.

They're basically saying "Our comics were better than your comics and you don't even know our comics because you never read them, so suck our balls!"

Which is horseshit because who the hell does Marvel think's been reading all these trade paperbacks and Essentials volumes?

This whole attitude really bothers me. I don't like being spoken to like I'm some idiot and that I should shut up because "Marvel" knows better. That doesn't help me get on board with the new direction.

Now, having Stan Lee write the OMD afterword in such a classy fashion? That was an EXCELLENT ploy to get me on board.

But treating me like an idiot? No. Stan NEVER did that. I'm always amazed because I'm convinced that one of the elements that made Marvel popular in the first place was stuff like the Bullpen where the writers DIDN'T talk down to the readers, treated us as equals, wrote the stories in a way that respected intelligence, and were NICE -- they seemed to LIKE us, so we LIKED them!

Stan often said he didn't write the stories for kids, but also not for adults -- he simply wrote stories he thought would be fun to read.

Now we have all this high-horse BS guys like Quesada, Millar, and Bendis who basically dictate to us what we should like, what Marvel should be, and why, as if only THEY are true comics fans and must lecture us on it (I actually am totally getting that vibe from these interviews they've been putting at the backs of the issues lately -- anyone else noticed them?), like "the books have sucked until now CAUSE X and you've been stupid for liking them because Y"

Which, like JR points out, is ludicrous because it's not like we had a staff change -- these are the guys who've been minding the store for seven years or so!

So, what am I supposed to believe? That they wrote all those suposedly crappy stories on purpose knowing they were crappy, and then knowingly suckered us into buying them and promoted them despite knowing they were crappy and then blaming us for liking them? And NOW they'll write the good ones??

WTF?

I wonder how JMS feels now that they've lumped his whole run into the 455 issues that apparently Spider-man was "broken"?

PS. Not sure if I like the new "review every arc" instead of one long Year in Review format, but then again it kinda mirrors Amazing's new format. But I'd rather see you concentrating on getting me 2007 in Review (not that anything happened -- it was just Back in Black right? You already covered OMD, which btw should be Spider-Man 2007: OMD, not 2006: OMD), and finishing Goblin Prince -- though I'd like to see that finish off in a way with Harry's death -- and then the surprise ending sort've be like a strange epilogue rather than the focus.
If I just read ASM #1-38 over and over again, it's like Ditko never left... right, guys? Guys... ?

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Post by CrazyChris » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:48 pm

Very good article. You always manage to find a angle to review from that hasn't been beaten to death.

What made you decide to start reviewing issues throughout the year? I always thought waiting a year gave your articles perspective and 20/20 hindsight that timlier reviews lacked. Also, I thought it helped that you only reveiwed a story arc after you didn't have to speculate on where it was leading. I know my opinion of Back in Black was different when I was in the thick of it than it is now that the Civil War-Back in Black-One More Day uber arc has played out. Was yours? I'm sure you can do a good job with more frequent reviews; I'm just worried Spidey Kicks Butt might lose part of what made it a unique resource for Spidey analysis.

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Post by ScarletSpider1138 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:52 pm

Yeah, that was where my concern came from --- though I think JR may have realised that with three times the amount of Amazing coming out, that's way more arcs and thus way more to cover in the Year end review.

Yeah -- it's funny, when Back in Black was in progress I thought it was a cool and logical progression from War at Home -- now I realise it was just a long disingenous lead-in to One More Day.
If I just read ASM #1-38 over and over again, it's like Ditko never left... right, guys? Guys... ?

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Post by CrazyChris » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:17 am

Yeah, that was where my concern came from --- though I think JR may have realised that with three times the amount of Amazing coming out, that's way more arcs and thus way more to cover in the Year end review.
Actually, his workload is the same because Friendly and Sensational were canceled. The only person who has to review more issues because of this is me.
Yeah -- it's funny, when Back in Black was in progress I thought it was a cool and logical progression from War at Home -- now I realise it was just a long disingenous lead-in to One More Day.
Same here. When you think about it, the last few years of JMS' run could have been one of the greatest meta-arcs in Spider-Man's history. He went from his status quo to one of the highest points in his life: he lived in Stark tower, got to hang with the Avengers, had all the support and resources Tony could offer, and was finally beginning to achieve legitemacy in the public eye. Then he had a choice: keep it all by sticking with Tony and supporting registration, or lose it all by following his values (which I believe were portrayed sensically; Pete's heart always beat a little to the left, and seeing the super-gitmo and him taking Tony's manipulation personally believably pushed him one step farther into solid Liberal ideology). Naturally, he chose his values and fell from his highest point to his lowest point. Now he was a fugitive with an exposed identity. The next logical step would be to have him crawl back up to his old status quo (I explained how that could be done in an old post: http://spidermancrawlspace.com/wwwboard ... highlight=), and the cycle could have been completed in a satisfying way. Instead, they screwed us over with the worst deus ex machina ending possible. I gave some of those issues 4s and 5s in my reviews for Crawl Space because I assumed JMS was only doing these radical things because he knew how he would fix it in the end. Now that I know I was wrong, I would certainly take back a lot of that praise if I could.
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Post by Thanos6 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:17 am

Another great article, JR. I agree with you on most everything, just two points of disagreement, really.

1) I've always loved the various "mystery villain" stories, though obviously I grew up with some later ones, such as "who is Gaunt" (don't remember who I suspected), "who is the latest Jack O'Lantern" (I had all my bets on Jacob Conover on that one; right guy, wrong villain), and "who is the great Clone Saga mastermind" (Dr. Octopus was my winner there; I was willing to believe Octopus was SUCH a mastermind that he had incorporated his own death and revival into his plan). But that's just a matter of differing tastes, such as our conflicting opinions on magic stories.*

*Speaking of which, I know you didn't like the Spidey/Red Sonja series, but please at least tell me you liked Hobby's sword-and-sorcery redesign. That was so badass.

2) Slott "pushing" BND in our face. I actually thought he was mocking it, like Dwayne McDuffie has been mocking ALL of Marvel in his latest Damage Control series.

Otherwise, total agreement.

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Post by BD » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:28 am

Great stuff as usual JR. Love the contrast between OMD and the 1999 re-boot. There's a lot of similarities and I think you nailed it.

I still disagree with you over Slott's arc being the worst of the three. I actually didn't care that much for the Freak arc. I just read it a couple days ago and was kinda let down. Granted there were a few parts that were nice. I look forward to the podcast so we can compare notes.

One error I did notice was your Cingular reference. Cingular was sold to At&T a few years ago. The Top Five thing is Alltell wireless.
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Post by MadGoblin » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:14 am

Thanks for the kind words - that was one of the hardest essays to write and took a long time to do. I just had a hard time getting the format to work to where there was a logical flow.

I suppose the idea of periodic reviews came from me being sick of doing thinks like the 2006 Year in Review in 2008, and I don't want to be doing YIR 2008 in 2010, but your comments are all well taken and I will revisit that idea. But no matter what, SKB will never be a "review" site because people like CrazyChris already do a good job at it and I don't want to duplicate anyone's work. I probably wouldn't do anymore 2008 until 2007 is done and really, only if SOMETHING MAJOR happens that requires timely commentary. That's been happening a lot lately with Secret Identity, One More Day, and now Brand New Day - events I would have normally waited until the following year to cover I feel compelled to strike while the iron is hot.

The image of "Spider-Man" telling the reader to shut up and hand over the money was simply too good NOT to use. I really don't suspect Slott of anything more than a maybe a little self-mocking on that one. The "macking" page though was deliberate, and that sounds like it was Quesada's idea as a "reality check" for us old geezers.

Good catch BD, I'll change it soon.

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Post by Kevin Cushing » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:46 am

JR, really good article. And I feel like a celebrity after reading it! Thanks for the double props, sir.
BD wrote:One error I did notice was your Cingular reference. Cingular was sold to At&T a few years ago. The Top Five thing is Alltell wireless.
Brad, I'm pretty sure the "My 5" thing is actually T-Mobile, though maybe some others have picked up variants of it?
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Post by Bevie » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:08 pm

Hi JR

I couldn't wait for this article and it was worth the wait.

You've been much kinder in your thoughts about the new direction than I can be though. For some reason just the idea of accepting this
status quo curdles my stomach. What they've done to Peter is make him entirely unrecognizable. He's like he's had a personality
transplant and is a different character altogether now. Also to a lesser degree in importance to me, Aunt May and Harry also are
people I've never met before. Though Aunt May seems to resemble Ultimate Aunt May more now than the former JMS one. Actually,
if I don't like or care for Peter Parker, then the rest of the cast are entirely uninteresting and give me no reason at all to restart
to buy the book. MJ as Jackpot is grotesque and destroys the great character which she had become. A normal human woman who
was able to love and support a superhero friend and not completely freak out with all the difficulties that would bring. Loving the man
who she even believed to be a clone at one time. I love MJ and Peter together against the world, and find it empty and without
interest otherwise. Regardless of other opinions, the long slow buildup of their relationship to love and then marriage and beyond
was emotionally satisfying and never stopped being interesting IMO of course.

The thing I wish for the most is for the books to tank and have to be fixed. Hopefully fixed with the marriage back. If they can
dissolve it in the revolting way they did, then they can bring it back. Its all MAGIC after all. It would be nice to get an apoloigy
from JQ as well, but as far as his attitude to the fans, that will never happen. After all, it was reversed twice before so maybe
three times lucky?

I like Morbius's description of the new Pete. Creepy loser. So right on! And I really don't want to read about "creepy losers"who
never succeed and will never have a meaningful relationship that leads anywhere.

I'm wondering what your final installment of the Harry Osborn article will read.

I may not be buying the books, but I'll always be reading your articles. Too bad they are not coming out three times a month.
I would have loved to read Spidey three times a month if only it was still the Parker I know under the costume and not some pseudo Nick Katzenberg wannabe. [smilie=spiderman.gif]

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Post by ScarletSpider1138 » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:08 pm

Bevie wrote: It would be nice to get an apoloigy
from JQ as well, but as far as his attitude to the fans, that will never happen.
:lol:
If I just read ASM #1-38 over and over again, it's like Ditko never left... right, guys? Guys... ?

CyberGhostface

Post by CyberGhostface » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:35 pm

Loved the line about Norman ripping out Harry's earring if he saw it. :D

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Post by Antiyonder » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:34 pm

ScarletSpider1138 wrote:See the comment about "the readers didn't know it was broken because they've been reading it only recently and have nothing to compare it to" comment enforces my opinion that Marvel basically hates it's fanbase and is made up of jerks who want comics like in the 70s.

They're basically saying "Our comics were better than your comics and you don't even know our comics because you never read them, so suck our balls!"

Which is horseshit because who the hell does Marvel think's been reading all these trade paperbacks and Essentials volumes?

This whole attitude really bothers me. I don't like being spoken to like I'm some idiot and that I should shut up because "Marvel" knows better. That doesn't help me get on board with the new direction.

Now, having Stan Lee write the OMD afterword in such a classy fashion? That was an EXCELLENT ploy to get me on board.

But treating me like an idiot? No. Stan NEVER did that. I'm always amazed because I'm convinced that one of the elements that made Marvel popular in the first place was stuff like the Bullpen where the writers DIDN'T talk down to the readers, treated us as equals, wrote the stories in a way that respected intelligence, and were NICE -- they seemed to LIKE us, so we LIKED them!

Stan often said he didn't write the stories for kids, but also not for adults -- he simply wrote stories he thought would be fun to read.

Now we have all this high-horse BS guys like Quesada, Millar, and Bendis who basically dictate to us what we should like, what Marvel should be, and why, as if only THEY are true comics fans and must lecture us on it (I actually am totally getting that vibe from these interviews they've been putting at the backs of the issues lately -- anyone else noticed them?), like "the books have sucked until now CAUSE X and you've been stupid for liking them because Y"

Which, like JR points out, is ludicrous because it's not like we had a staff change -- these are the guys who've been minding the store for seven years or so!

So, what am I supposed to believe? That they wrote all those suposedly crappy stories on purpose knowing they were crappy, and then knowingly suckered us into buying them and promoted them despite knowing they were crappy and then blaming us for liking them? And NOW they'll write the good ones??

WTF?
QFT: I mean Stan's mindset is that people from all walks of life should enjoy a comic, Joe's mindest is that anyone who reads a comic for more than 5 years is a loser who needs to get laid. Gee, I wonder why Marvel has trouble getting more people into comics today.
Antiyonder: No relation to The Anti-Beyonder from the non existing Amalgam Comics Miniseries "Secret Crisis Of The Infinity Hour #1-12"


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