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Marvel cancels titles

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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby DarkKnightJared » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:35 pm

Berserkfury819 wrote:
I disagree. Rucka's Punisher has been dull and decompressed. We've hardly seen any action, its mostly cops and reporters talking about the Punisher. He didn't even show up in the last issue. I buy Punisher comics for one thing, to see Frank Castle shoot bad guys in the face. This book is not Punisher. Its New York Central guest staring the Punisher.


That's one of the things that I'm finding interesting about how Rucka's writing him--it seems like he's taking Ennis' idea of the Punisher being less of a character and more of a force of nature and taking it to it's next logical step.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby SpideyInATree » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:58 pm

dornwolf wrote:
SpideyInATree wrote: As far as Punisher goes it's another solid book. Rucka is doing a great Marvel Universe Punisher and Mark Checchetto's artwork is GREAT! You don't like it because Nora Winters was in the book? Well, that's your loss. The book has a lot more to it than Nora Winters. And, honestly, her appearances actually add more depth to the character than an overzealous reporter.


Never heard the joke about the BND curse have you. The belief that everyone connected to OMD/BND is tainted in such away their runs usually end early or are cancelled or hated. As much as I like him JMS is an example, Van Lente is another.


I haven't heard of the joke because it's a horrible joke.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Berserkfury819 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:56 pm

DarkKnightJared wrote:
Berserkfury819 wrote:
I disagree. Rucka's Punisher has been dull and decompressed. We've hardly seen any action, its mostly cops and reporters talking about the Punisher. He didn't even show up in the last issue. I buy Punisher comics for one thing, to see Frank Castle shoot bad guys in the face. This book is not Punisher. Its New York Central guest staring the Punisher.


That's one of the things that I'm finding interesting about how Rucka's writing him--it seems like he's taking Ennis' idea of the Punisher being less of a character and more of a force of nature and taking it to it's next logical step.


Except he's not writing Frank as a force of nature, because 75% of the time he's not even in the damn book!
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby BD » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:27 pm

I'm with Berserk. I'm not digging the Punisher book. I want Frank to be front and center not in the background. The same stroytelling technique was used by Bruce Jones in the Incredible Hulk in the early 2000's. Didn't like it then either.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby CrazyChris » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:03 am

Has there ever been a truly awesome Punisher run not written by Garth Ennis? I'm actually curious, not joking.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Berserkfury819 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:11 am

CrazyChris wrote:Has there ever been a truly awesome Punisher run not written by Garth Ennis? I'm actually curious, not joking.


The mini series "Circle of Blood" from 1985 is really good. Then there was a 104 issue series that started in 1988, and I really liked what I've read of it, but I can't remember who was involved. Then Chuck Dixon had a good run on Punisher War Zone for around 30-40 issues.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Mr. Noodle » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:32 pm

Isn't it difficult to build a series around a homicidal crackpot? (I have only read just bit-n-pieces of Punisher from the 90s). A lot of the Punisher stuff i've seen others here talk about didn't sound like my "thing", but I owned the original appearance of the Punisher in ASM at one time, and am generally familiar with the character. I wondered if he works in a story sort of like a human solar flare or an EMP pulse -- whenever he gets involved there's a warping effect, characters go haywire, and there is mounting chaos.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Berserkfury819 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:55 pm

Mr. Noodle wrote:Isn't it difficult to build a series around a homicidal crackpot? (I have only read just bit-n-pieces of Punisher from the 90s). A lot of the Punisher stuff i've seen others here talk about didn't sound like my "thing", but I owned the original appearance of the Punisher in ASM at one time, and am generally familiar with the character. I wondered if he works in a story sort of like a human solar flare or an EMP pulse -- whenever he gets involved there's a warping effect, characters go haywire, and there is mounting chaos.


The Punisher is hardly a crackpot. He's shown to be highly intelligent and a master of combat tactics. As for "hard to write," thats the excuse Slott and co. use about the spider-marriage. Garth Ennis had a fantastic run on the character for 60 issues. The problem isn't how Rucka is writing Frank, its that Frank is barely in the damn book.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby CrazyChris » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:20 pm

Mr. Noodle wrote:Isn't it difficult to build a series around a homicidal crackpot?


Anyone who finds it too hard to take the concept "guy kills people who deserve it" and make it entertaining does not deserve to be a professional writer.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Berserkfury819 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:51 pm

CrazyChris wrote:
Mr. Noodle wrote:Isn't it difficult to build a series around a homicidal crackpot?


Anyone who finds it too hard to take the concept "guy kills people who deserve it" and make it entertaining does not deserve to be a professional writer.


Seconded.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby NickMB » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:12 pm

Berserkfury819 wrote:
CrazyChris wrote:
Mr. Noodle wrote:Isn't it difficult to build a series around a homicidal crackpot?


Anyone who finds it too hard to take the concept "guy kills people who deserve it" and make it entertaining does not deserve to be a professional writer.


Seconded.


There are Punisher runs written by established professional writers that aren't particularly well remembered though. I think any writer could do a few cathartic Punisher stories, but building a whole series around it is the challenging part. After all, as Garth Ennis said in interviews, he isn't exactly a guy who can have many recurring villains. So you have a year of "Punisher kills mobsters", then... you could always pit him against superheroes and supervillains, but then you hit the problem that Marvel aren't going to allow Frank to start slaughtering their villains (especially ones who aren't even Punisher villains).

And that's before you even tackle the issue of making him sympathetic. So yeah, I think any writer worth their salt could do a decent Punisher mini-series, but making it work as an ongoing without getting samey would require more thought. Obviously Garth Ennis is the master. Jason Aaron's MAX run has had good reviews (I've not yet picked up the trades, I'm kinda waiting to see if they do a 22-issue HC), but he's skirted the issue rather by doing one long-form story, then leaving.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Mr. Noodle » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:44 pm

There are Punisher runs written by established professional writers that aren't particularly well remembered though. I think any writer could do a few cathartic Punisher stories, but building a whole series around it is the challenging part. After all, as Garth Ennis said in interviews, he isn't exactly a guy who can have many recurring villains. So you have a year of "Punisher kills mobsters", then... you could always pit him against superheroes and supervillains, but then you hit the problem that Marvel aren't going to allow Frank to start slaughtering their villains (especially ones who aren't even Punisher villains) And that's before you even tackle the issue of making him sympathetic. So yeah, I think any writer worth their salt could do a decent Punisher mini-series, but making it work as an ongoing without getting samey would require more thought. Obviously Garth Ennis is the master. Jason Aaron's MAX run has had good reviews (I've not yet picked up the trades, I'm kinda waiting to see if they do a 22-issue HC), but he's skirted the issue rather by doing one long-form story, then leaving.

This is the sort of thing that I was thinking of. But Wolfman wrote a well-regarded series about Dracula, and Dracula has zero redeeming features. At least Castle feels rage against murderers, on behalf of victims. But I do think he's essentially a madman, with streaks of humanity.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby Berserkfury819 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Mr. Noodle wrote:There are Punisher runs written by established professional writers that aren't particularly well remembered though. I think any writer could do a few cathartic Punisher stories, but building a whole series around it is the challenging part. After all, as Garth Ennis said in interviews, he isn't exactly a guy who can have many recurring villains. So you have a year of "Punisher kills mobsters", then... you could always pit him against superheroes and supervillains, but then you hit the problem that Marvel aren't going to allow Frank to start slaughtering their villains (especially ones who aren't even Punisher villains) And that's before you even tackle the issue of making him sympathetic. So yeah, I think any writer worth their salt could do a decent Punisher mini-series, but making it work as an ongoing without getting samey would require more thought. Obviously Garth Ennis is the master. Jason Aaron's MAX run has had good reviews (I've not yet picked up the trades, I'm kinda waiting to see if they do a 22-issue HC), but he's skirted the issue rather by doing one long-form story, then leaving.

This is the sort of thing that I was thinking of. But Wolfman wrote a well-regarded series about Dracula, and Dracula has zero redeeming features. At least Castle feels rage against murderers, on behalf of victims. But I do think he's essentially a madman, with streaks of humanity.


But to call him a madman implies a degree of insanity, ala Norman Osborn or someone else. I get that you probably wouldn't like the character because killing criminals is all he does. But speaking as someone who has a read a ton of Punisher comics, he's not a madman. He always has plan, a backup plan, and a back up back up plan. I'd argue the only hero who is probably more crazy prepared than the Punisher is Batman.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby NickMB » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:59 am

Mr. Noodle wrote:There are Punisher runs written by established professional writers that aren't particularly well remembered though. I think any writer could do a few cathartic Punisher stories, but building a whole series around it is the challenging part. After all, as Garth Ennis said in interviews, he isn't exactly a guy who can have many recurring villains. So you have a year of "Punisher kills mobsters", then... you could always pit him against superheroes and supervillains, but then you hit the problem that Marvel aren't going to allow Frank to start slaughtering their villains (especially ones who aren't even Punisher villains) And that's before you even tackle the issue of making him sympathetic. So yeah, I think any writer worth their salt could do a decent Punisher mini-series, but making it work as an ongoing without getting samey would require more thought. Obviously Garth Ennis is the master. Jason Aaron's MAX run has had good reviews (I've not yet picked up the trades, I'm kinda waiting to see if they do a 22-issue HC), but he's skirted the issue rather by doing one long-form story, then leaving.

This is the sort of thing that I was thinking of. But Wolfman wrote a well-regarded series about Dracula, and Dracula has zero redeeming features. At least Castle feels rage against murderers, on behalf of victims. But I do think he's essentially a madman, with streaks of humanity.


I don't know if the fact the Punisher is homicidal is the problem. There are plenty of comics built around unsympathetic or crazy leads. Batman has been written as a bit of a psycho for a lot of the last 30 years. (Although less so since Morrison came on board, which is a nice change at least.) Cerebus was a complete prick and his series ran for 300 issues. The Punisher is just such an aggressively crazy loner who kills or abandons any villains or supporting cast that it's hard to get much going, and it's easier to just write a string of stories in which he kills crooks. Never read Wolfman's Dracula, but he has a lot more surviving mythology you could play with. And as someone else said, he isn't actually written as one-dimensional and grim as Castle.
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Re: Marvel cancels titles

Postby CrazyChris » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:11 am

I did not mean to imply that writing an entertaining Punisher run should be "easy." I meant that any professional writer who thought it was "too hard" to do should be fired from writing. I get that there's a challenge to writing a character with no permanent relationships and no life outside of killing people. But that challenge should be within the ability of anyone with enough writing ability to get paid to write.

Berserkfury819 wrote:But to call him a madman implies a degree of insanity, ala Norman Osborn or someone else. I get that you probably wouldn't like the character because killing criminals is all he does. But speaking as someone who has a read a ton of Punisher comics, he's not a madman. He always has plan, a backup plan, and a back up back up plan. I'd argue the only hero who is probably more crazy prepared than the Punisher is Batman.


I don't think I agree with your definition of what a "madman" is. It seems like you think "madman" implies some sort of mental handicap that prevents one from accomplishing his goals. There are plenty of people throughout history and in fiction who qualify as madmen but are nonetheless super-effective at planning and executing their goals. The holocaust, Soviet Russia, 9/11 . . . all the work of madmen who nonetheless had the ability to plan and execute their mad schemes with an unfortunate degree of success. I'm not saying Frank Castle is like any of those, but it does cast doubt on whether that definition of "madman" really holds up.

I don't know whether the Punisher is a madman. He is not mentally handicapped or delusional. In his own universe, where he is incapable of making mistakes or errors in judgment, maybe what he does is even laudable. Someone like the Punisher, if he existed in the real world, would certainly be a madman given that no human is really that infallible.
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