Friendly Fire Fight Club #218 - 'WETWAR!'

[CrazyChris]

Quick follow up on the point about Quicksilver, which Thrawn brought up. According to Quicksilver's Marvel database entry, he was originally able to run 770 miles per hour. He later got a power boost from the high evolutionary that put his speed at 3080 MPH. Thus, Aquaman is a couple hundred miles per hour faster than Quicksilver was in his classic incarnation, and a third as fast as the current Quicksilver. Aquaman is about 10,000 times stronger, literally, than Quicksilver. Thus, the argument that "Quicksilver can't get Juggernaut's helmet off, so neither can Aquaman," is not valid.

[Thrawn]

Wonder Woman has defeated Supes, too. It goes both ways.

Far less than he's defeated her.

Wonder Woman's whole body is powered by magic. Just her fists alone might be enough to hurt Juggernaut.

That's a stretch since they've never been shown to do any extra damage to Superman or Power Girl.

I don't get why you think Aquaman would have some kind of angel aura around him.

The dude is wielding a divine weapon from the ocean god Poseiden.

If two people break into my house, the guy pounding the walls and tossing over the furniture is the one I hit with a baseball bat first.

You suggest above that Aquaman could tear up the paved roads in order to create quicksand or something. I'd say Cthulhu would swing a bat at Aquaman for that.

The point was that there is not unanimous agreement that Cthulhu's sunken city would be devoid of sea life. You just pulled that out of your butt.

A bit of logical deduction. Animals usually can sense evil and danger Either way, as much destuction as these guys will be kicking up, that'll chase a lot of marine life out of the area.

Aquaman is in his element so he fights on his own terms.

I've read a few Aquaman stories and he can be quite prideful and arrogant at times from what I've seen.

Under the Marvel rankings, a 2 is classed as "normal" intelligence, which means Jugs is about as smart as your average joe off the street.

I think too much gets made of that sometimes. Juggernaut knows how to fight. He has been trained to fight and he's been in many battles. Your regular army soldier or navy seal aren't military geniuses but they get the job done because they have training, experience, and a natural aptitude for combat.

Juggernaut has those things. He can keep up with Aquaman in battle quite easily. He's used to dealing with super powered individuals the equal of and superior to Aquaman.

History has shown that all it takes to get Juggernaut's helmet off is a distraction.

Distraction and team efforts by several individuals. It's not like Aquaman is going to have much help here. And Juggernaut isn't going to let him do it.

I'm also beginning to wonder if he isn't protected beyond just the helmet:

The Juggernaut wears a helmet fashioned from an unknown mystical metal found in the Crimson Cosmos dimension of Cyttorak. The Juggernaut subsequently fashioned a skullcap from scraps of the metal used to construct the helmet. This skullcap provides him with complete protection from telepathic attack even when this is from telepaths of the order of Professor Xavier.

I also see no reason why he can't just make another helmet:

Juggernaut also showed ability to create his helmet from other objects by using his Crimson Magic. So even if his helmet is destroyed , he can always make another one .

And again, Aquaman will need to know he has to take off Juggenaut's helmet. You say he'll have to figure that out. Well, he still won't know that. He'd have to take a chance that would work.

That most certainly won't be his first line of attack. He'll most certainly try physical means at first because Aquaman is a physical fighter first and foremost. Not a telepath. Before Aquaman realizes that Juggernaut is invulnerable to all physical attacks, Juggernaut will already have put a beat down on him winning the match.

[Two-Bit Specialist]

I just saw this thread. There's now way I can keep up with Thrawn or Chris at this point.

So I'll just vote for dumb reasons, like I always do.

Juggernaut, because he was in Street Fighter vs. X-Men, and I liked that game.

~My Two Cents

[Thrawn]

I love Juggernaut's oversized proportions on that game. I mean he has over-sized proportions in the comic too, but it's great in that game.

[butters911]

This is a toughie.

Good arguments all around. Still think Aquaman could take this, but Im open to be persuaded

[FSUSpiderFan]

Sorry Thrawn, I think Chis makes a better case. Aquaman should be able to take out Juggs.

[CrazyChris]

Thrawn wrote:

The dude is wielding a divine weapon from the ocean god Poseiden.

I don't know if that is going to register as "pure good" on Cthulhu's radar. I'm not sure about DC's Poseidon, but the mythical Poseidon is far from an angel. The Greek gods were mostly self-serving hedonists.

But speaking of the Trident of Poseidon, I came across some cool panels reading comics today.

First, this is Mera wielding the Trident of Poseidon to seriously injure Black Lantern Wonder Woman. The Black Lanterns have the same abilities as the characters they've taken over, plus extra powers akin to the Green Lanterns. Wonder Woman has crazy-high invulnerability. She can withstand full nuclear blasts and punches from Superman. Some heavy weaponry can make her bleed but not seriously harm her. Most importantly, she has "heightened resistance to magical attacks." Because of that, now I'm thinking that the Trident is even more powerful than I originally sold it as, because it can injure highly resistant beings who have particularly high resistance against magic. And this is in Mera's hand, which is not even close to the strength and skill Aquaman has. Aquaman might actually be able to incapacitate Juggernaut temporarily (long enough to qualify as a win for Aquaman) by just slicing and dicing him, since Juggernaut is vulnerable to magically enhanced weapons and this certainly qualifies. If that's too much for the voters to swallow, it should at least be enough to get through Juggernaut's magical shields and detach his helmet.



For good measure, here's a picture of Red Lantern Mera piercing Star Sapphire Wonder Woman. Again, this is a MORE powerful version of the regular Wonder Woman because she has all of WW's abilities plus the power of the Star Sapphire ring. Sorry for the poor quality, I'm taking these with my phone.

You suggest above that Aquaman could tear up the paved roads in order to create quicksand or something. I'd say Cthulhu would swing a bat at Aquaman for that.

No matter how much Aquaman tears up, Juggernaut will be smashing more. He's Juggernaut and that's his nature. He'll be drawing much more of Cthulhu's ire.

A bit of logical deduction. Animals usually can sense evil and danger Either way, as much destuction as these guys will be kicking up, that'll chase a lot of marine life out of the area.

Logical deduction? More like desperately reaching. I don't think this fight is going to kill all life in the area, either. This is a city, so there is plenty of shelter for Aquaman's fishy friends. Unless you're saying that Juggernaut is going to level the whole city, in which case he'll REALLY be pissing off Cthulhu.

I've read a few Aquaman stories and he can be quite prideful and arrogant at times from what I've seen.

It doesn't seem to hinder him. He's prideful in the good way, like a swashbuckling dread pirate Roberts kind of way. In DC vs. Marvel, Aquaman defeated Namor by fighting dirty, and they had been under water seconds ago so Namor would have been close to his peak strength. At peak strength, Namor is a match for the Hulk and the Sentry.

I think too much gets made of that sometimes. Juggernaut knows how to fight. He has been trained to fight and he's been in many battles. Your regular army soldier or navy seal aren't military geniuses but they get the job done because they have training, experience, and a natural aptitude for combat.

Juggernaut has those things. He can keep up with Aquaman in battle quite easily. He's used to dealing with super powered individuals the equal of and superior to Aquaman.

Aquaman has training, experience, aptitude for combat AND military genius.

Distraction and team efforts by several individuals. It's not like Aquaman is going to have much help here. And Juggernaut isn't going to let him do it.

Aquaman has nothing but help when he's under water, close to the sea life he naturally commands. Plus, once he starts smashing everything (which will be immediately) Cthulhu will be charging at him. Also, Aquaman under water, on his own, is more formidable than the entire X-Men team that regularly beats him. Oh, and it doesn't even take teams to beat Juggernaut; Spidey did it all by himself! If Spider-Man can do it, you bet your ass Aquaman can do it when they're fighting on the ocean floor.

I also see no reason why he can't just make another helmet

Jugs just needs to be vulnerable for a second in order for Aquaman and Cthulhu to blast him with telepathy. He won't get the chance to fashion another helmet or magically summon one because the fight will be over that instant. I'm not too worried about this skull cap. It sounds like something Jugs doesn't always have with him so I'm not assuming he has it in this fight. Even if he does, knocking off a metal yarmulke will be cake after getting the bolt-down helmet off. Aquaman can use his faster-than-Quicksilver speed to do it all before Juggernaut can even react.

And again, Aquaman will need to know he has to take off Juggenaut's helmet. You say he'll have to figure that out. Well, he still won't know that. He'd have to take a chance that would work.

That most certainly won't be his first line of attack. He'll most certainly try physical means at first because Aquaman is a physical fighter first and foremost. Not a telepath. Before Aquaman realizes that Juggernaut is invulnerable to all physical attacks, Juggernaut will already have put a beat down on him winning the match.

Aquaman is so much faster and so much more skilled underwater that the only way Juggernaut is going to land a single punch is if Aquaman lets him. Meanwhile, Aquaman is landing several blows on Juggernaut and if they don't work (which is questionable given how powerful the trident is), he will quickly decide other tactics are better.

Here's Aquaman giving a guy a seizure with telepathy. He definitely uses telepathy in combat and he can use it for Emma Frost-level (at least) effects on non-aquatic beings.

Sorry Thrawn, I think Chis makes a better case. Aquaman should be able to take out Juggs.

This is a toughie.

Good arguments all around. Still think Aquaman could take this, but Im open to be persuaded

Thanks for the support guys. I'm glad the arguments seem to be keeping this even.

Maybe some of you out there who voted for Juggernaut early on based on instinct can change your vote now! There's no shame in it, and you would want others to do the same for you if you put effort into making a case! This is the most fun fight I've ever been in and the only thing to make it funner would be WINNING!

[FSUSpiderFan]

Well, you're now up one vote. This is a very intriguing match. Good job to both of you. It's always fun to see two powerhouses going against eachother, and I'm not talking about Aquaman and Jugs. Thrawn vs. Crazy chris is a battle of Fight Club titans.

[CrazyChris]

Thanks for the encouragement! This is a blast!

[Thrawn]

Sorry Thrawn, I think Chis makes a better case. Aquaman should be able to take out Juggs.

This is a toughie.

Good arguments all around. Still think Aquaman could take this, but Im open to be persuaded

You two are about as useless as Aquaman, you know that?

Aquaman might actually be able to incapacitate Juggernaut temporarily (long enough to qualify as a win for Aquaman) by just slicing and dicing him, since Juggernaut is vulnerable to magically enhanced weapons and this certainly qualifies. If that's too much for the voters to swallow, it should at least be enough to get through Juggernaut's magical shields and detach his helmet.

Doubtful. Juggernaut was flayed to the bone by the demon D'Spayre and it still couldn't stop him. I said it before, and I'll say it again...nothing stops the Juggernaut when he's at full power. Nothing.

Unless you're saying that Juggernaut is going to level the whole city, in which case he'll REALLY be pissing off Cthulhu.

Aquaman has more to fear from Cthulhu than Juggernaut does.

Aquaman has training, experience, aptitude for combat AND military genius.

What he doesn't have is the limitless strength and invulnerability to all physical harm that the Juggernaut does. You're entire argument hinges on Aquaman somehow figuring out that he needs to take Juggernaut's helmet off - without ever having met Juggernaut before - and then somehow managing to get it off.

That's a lot of "ifs".

Oh, and it doesn't even take teams to beat Juggernaut; Spidey did it all by himself! If Spider-Man can do it, you bet your ass Aquaman can do it when they're fighting on the ocean floor.

I never did like that B.S. Spider-Man story very much. Written by Roger Stern who also had him defeat Firelord correct?

If Spider-Man can do it, you bet your ass Aquaman can do it when they're fighting on the ocean floor.

Spider-Man lives in the same universe and is familiar with Juggernaut. Aquaman, sadly, is not.

Meanwhile, Aquaman is landing several blows on Juggernaut and if they don't work (which is questionable given how powerful the trident is),

Except for this:

His body can be harmed by magic of sufficient strength, but he heals instantaneously. It recreates every lost damage of his body in seconds and heals every injures.

I didn't bring this up earlier, but since this will be my final argument I might as well. Juggernaut is still discovering his full power and potential. I see no reason why when confronted by Aquaman he couldn't use some of these abilities 'inadvertently' since many of you seem to think he'll be pushed to the limit by Aquaman underwater in this match.

The full potential of Juggernaut's abilities are unknown even to himself, but he inadvertently displayed various magical abilities that he didn't know how to replicate, such as: altering the size of matter, growing in size, tracking, levitation, absorbing energy, projecting energy, increasing his own strength, and creating portals.

My favorite is where he grows in size, which would make it near impossible (more than it is already) for Aquaman to remove his helmet.

Alright, that's it. I'm out of here until the poll ends.

[butters911]

Defalco wrote the Firelord story

Nothing can stop the Juggernaut is a classic spidey story

[herbiepopnecker]

Fight's over.
Aquaman just handed Juggernaut an Aero.

[Thrawn]

Nothing can stop the Juggernaut is a classic Spidey story

[CrazyChris]

This'll probably be my final word, too, unless Thrawn comes back with something that hasn't already been debated in our other posts.

Doubtful. Juggernaut was flayed to the bone by the demon D'Spayre and it still couldn't stop him. I said it before, and I'll say it again...nothing stops the Juggernaut when he's at full power. Nothing.

Uh, except all the things that have, you know, stopped him. Like Spider-Man and a tub of cement, for instance. Aquaman has even more to work with, here, including a weapon that bypasses high levels of magical resistance. Juggernaut's head might start growing back after Aquaman cuts it off, but by that time Juggernaut's dismembered brain will have already been psi-blasted.

You're entire argument hinges on Aquaman somehow figuring out that he needs to take Juggernaut's helmet off - without ever having met Juggernaut before - and then somehow managing to get it off.

Here's Aquaman's thought process: "Gee, normally I can instantly give people seizures with my telepathy, but it's not working on this guy. Hey, maybe the ginormous freaking canon ball encasing his head has something to do with that."

The whole argument for Juggernaut requires the above to be rocket science and not the obvious common sense that it is. Therefore, the argument for Juggernaut is bad.

I never did like that B.S. Spider-Man story very much.

The story does not come across as B.S. to me. It's just a good example of how the nature of Juggernaut's powers are such that a single superhero with enough cunning can defeat him. Juggernaut's power is to not be stopped once he starts moving, but things that prevent him from moving in the first place, like cement, make that power useless.

I've noticed that no one has answered the question about how Juggernaut even starts moving in this fight, where the water pressure would be like a multi-ton vice-grip from every direction. I'm only entertaining the idea that Juggernaut starts this match already moving in order to be sporting. But if at any point Juggernaut stops to, say, figure out where Aquaman has gone after Aquaman uses his faster-than-sound swimming to get out of Juggernaut's range, then Juggernaut will be stuck by water pressure alone. Creating quicksand is another option for Aquaman, but it actually shouldn't be necessary.

Spider-Man lives in the same universe and is familiar with Juggernaut. Aquaman, sadly, is not.

Because "big guy who can't be stopped as long as he's moving" is waaaaaay too hard to figure out just by watching the guy for a couple minutes. NOT!

I didn't bring this up earlier, but since this will be my final argument I might as well. Juggernaut is still discovering his full power and potential. I see no reason why when confronted by Aquaman he couldn't use some of these abilities 'inadvertently' since many of you seem to think he'll be pushed to the limit by Aquaman underwater in this match.

I can understand why "Juggernaut would just start making up new powers" would only be your last resort.

My favorite is where he grows in size, which would make it near impossible (more than it is already) for Aquaman to remove his helmet.

I'm not sure how becoming a bigger target would help Juggernaut against Aquaman. Aquaman moves faster than sound, he'll cut through the helmet before Juggernaut can stop him not matter how big Juggernaut gets. But even that still depends on this inadvertent power kicking in to start with. I said the same thing in the fight with Solomon Grundy that I said here: powers that you need to roll a savings throw in order to use are not going to help you against an opponent who is consistently capable 100% of the time.

[FSUSpiderFan]

I feel like Thrawn is really reaching on this one. Chris has presented several ways that Aquaman could take out Juggernaught. Meanwhile with Thrawn has not given us how Jugs can beat Aquaman other than once he gets his paws on him, it's wham bam, to the moon Alice! Juggernaught will be walking slowly across the ocean floor with Aquaman buzzing around him at superspeed. Jugs will be lucky to hit Aquaman at all. Aquaman is durable to withstand blows from Juggernaught. Most of the time Aquaman will be swimming at high speed testing out ways to take bucket head out until he narrows down to one of the plausible choices Chris outlined.