Friendly Fire Fight Club #187 - 'The CLIFF PERILOUS!'

[George Berryman]

"It is I, Bruce Lee, the deadliest man to have ever walked the Earth with the possible exception of John Wayne or George Berryman. The Gong of Conflict has once again been pounded upon - it is time to FIGHT!"



"Recently tnr105 challenged Thrawn, who accepted. As his champion Thrawn chose one of Superman's deadliest foes and one of the more powerful combatants in the DC Universe... DOOMSDAY!"



"The last time we saw Doomsday was in last season's epic - and still controversial - Hall of Fame win over Squirrel Girl. In response, tnr105 looked to a powerful villain from the Marvel universe known from his epic battle with Thor... LOKI, God of Mischief!"



"With the combatants chosen, George Berryman has informed me that he has selected the Mesa Verde Pueblo Cliff Palace as tonight's fight venue."



"Built by the ancient Native American Pueblo people, this structure is the largest cliff palace complex in North America. Dating back to 1190 AD the structure has over 150 rooms and was home to approximately 100 people. Tourists travel to Mesa Verde Nation Park in Colorado to see the Cliff Palace, which has had some areas partially restored.

"Kal-Killer against a Norse God! Those are your choices! Who wins? Who loses? You decide. Vote NOW! Take us away, Elvis Presley!"

[Thrawn]

Alright, here we go.

Loki can't defeat Thor in a physical fight. Loki has been defeated by the Hulk before. So has Thor. Doomsday is at a minimum stronger than the Hulk. Doomsday possesses something the Hulk does not: the ability to adapt to any form of attack he comes across. The only form of attack Doomsday can't evolve beyond are pure physical attacks. That is not Loki's specialty. Cunning is also Loki's primary ability, not physicality. Physically, although powerful compared to the average hero, his strength is far below that characters like Doomsday and the Thing. The Hulk is powerful enough to take on Thor and the other Asgard Gods. Doomsday certainly is as well. Doomsday can move faster than the eye can see as well. He is definitely faster than Loki.

Doomsday is invulnerable or simply too tough to be hurt by anything Loki can throw at him:

Doomsday is almost completely resistant to all forms of physical and mental types of harm, and as such, bullets bounce off him, rockets, lasers and bombs won't leave a mark on him, and high-voltage energy emissions (beams) can't penetrate through his tough hide

He is strong and powerful enough to overcome entire rosters of superhumans, like the Justice League. Doomsday's strength capacity potential seems to be unlimited. Due to his adaptive abilities he is as strong as he needs to be to accomplish any goal.

Adaptive Countermeasures: Doomsday can also develop any weapons and evolutions to counter anything in his way, such as the case when he canceled out a being of pure energy (i.e. Radiant) by generating a highly specific aura of energy. His powers also allowed him to extend his claws to strike while Superman was in flight and reel him in while slowly poisoning him in the aforementioned Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey or breathe flames against the Martian Manhunter in Superman #175. Doomsday now adapts nearly instantly to threats.

Does anyone here think Loki has any thing tougher at his disposal than Darkseid's Omega Beams? I don't. Darkseid hit Doomsday point blank with them and it did nothing. Doomsday then proceeded to hand Darkseid his behind.

Doomsday was shown to be extremely resilient to energy based attacks when facing Darkseid, even going so far as to brutally attack the Lord of Apokolips who had unleashed the full force of his Omega Beams on Doomsday at point blank range

Doomsday is so formidable that he murdered hundreds of Green Lantern's at the same time. Yeah...take that in.

Doomsday took his power ring and sensing the power of the Guardians of the Universe, made his way to them. Hundreds of Green Lanterns were sent to stop him and were killed. He continued to Oa where a single Guardian sacrificed himself in battle to defeat him.

After killing all those Green Lanterns, it took a guardian sacrificing himself just to get Doomsday off the planet. He couldn't actually defeat Doomsday, and all the while the Guardian was commenting how Doomsday had almost completely become immune to the Green Lantern power.

I don't think Loki could survive an attack by hundreds of Green Lanterns.

Now the argument could be made that Loki possesses magic which is slightly different than some of the cosmic energy based attacks that Doomsday has encountered. However, Doomsday has encountered magic before. Martian Manhunter attack him with the Blood Gem which uses necromancy (a form of magic).

It had zero effect on Doomsday.

So there you go. Loki has been defeated by characters less powerful than him, he's been bested by the dimwitted Hulk before. There's no way he beats Doomsday.

And on the question of Loki's superior intelligence...it doesn't matter. Doomsday has defeated Superman, Darkseid, hundreds of Green Lanterns, Guy Gardner, a guardian of Oa, and the list goes on. Some of those guys are smarter than Loki (Superman and Darkseid). Their greater intelligence didn't help them one bit.

I don't see anyway Loki can damage or actually defeat Doomsday with his near instant healing factor, and ability to adapt to new forms of energy and magic attacks. The only form of attack Doomsday can't evolve beyond is physical attacks, adn there's no way Loki can beat him in a fist fight.


_________________________________

"The last time we saw Doomsday was in last season's epic - and still controversial - Hall of Fame win over Squirrel Girl.

I proudly sport the banner from that fight in my sig.

[AmFan15]

Now the argument could be made that Loki possesses magic which is slightly different than some of the cosmic energy based attacks that Doomsday has encountered. However, Doomsday has encountered magic before. Martian Manhunter attack him with the Blood Gem which uses necromancy (a form of magic).

It had zero effect on Doomsday.

True...but then again, Martian Manhunter is not quite on the same mystical level as Loki, is he?
Had the same artifact been wielded by someone with a little more mystical expertise (say Zatanna or Dr Fate), the outcome may have been an entirely different result.

I'm not convinced yet. I need to hear some pro-Loki arguments...I feel his intelligence and mystical prowess might be able to topple this powerhouse.

[Thrawn]

True...but then again, Martian Manhunter is not quite on the same mystical level as Loki, is he?

No, but it's still a powerful mystical artifact.

Had the same artifact been wielded by someone with a little more mystical expertise (say Zatanna or Dr Fate), the outcome may have been an entirely different result.

I don't think so. The Hulk is able to go toe to toe with Asgard gods. There's nothing magical about the Hulk. Doomsday is more powerful than the Hulk and was able to adapt to the Green Lantern energy source.

I need to hear some pro-Loki arguments...I feel his intelligence and mystical prowess might be able to topple this powerhouse.

Intelligence and power did not help Darkseid or Superman against Doomsday. There's no doubt in my mind that in a fight Hulk, Darkseid, Superman, Green Lantern, and Martian ManHunter could take Loki. Doomsday has easily beaten them all. You don't outsmart Doomsday. He just comes at you non-stop and evolves and adapts to your attacks. The thing is, he has an almost danger sense that's evolved to a basic point where he can sense threats. If Loki has enough power to actually be able to kill him (he isn't, because he's not powerful enough to kill the Hulk), Doomsday would sense it and be on top of Loki before Loki knew what hit him.

That's Doomsday moving so fast he caught Superman and the other heroes with their pants down.





Loki couldn't handle the Hulk. Doomsday is always in an enraged state. There's no way he can handle him in a fight. Doomsday defeated hundreds of Green Lanterns at the same time. There are no minions for Loki to call on here, no outside forces to manipulate, nothing. They're in the middle of nowhere.

[Guyman442]

I live relatively close to Mesa Verde.
Doomsday FTW. The guy took down several Justice League members and Superman before he died.

[Thrawn]

I live relatively close to Mesa Verde.
Doomsday FTW. The guy took down several Justice League members and Superman before he died.

That's what I'm saying. That is not to take anything away from Loki. I like Loki quite a bit. But the thing is, cunning and intelligence have been proven to not be an advantage against Doomsday. He's just too powerful. He easily handed Darkseid his butt.

I live relatively close to Mesa Verde.

My condolences for the destruction your neck of the woods is about to suffer at the hands of Doomsday.

[Spider-Girl]

Doomsday has the brawn but Loki has the smarts. He did have a lot of power over Hulk! I'm leaning toward Loki!

[Thrawn]

Doomsday has the brawn but Loki has the smarts.

Intelligence does not help you against Doomsday. He was able to easily defeat Darkseid and Superman. How is that going to help Loki exactly?

Doomsday now adapts nearly instantly to threats.

I really can't stress that enough. It's like saying because Loki is smart he could defeat a tidal wave or a tornado. Doomsday is sheer power. It doesn't matter how smart Loki is. Just ask Superman and Darkseid.

He did have a lot of power over Hulk! I'm leaning toward Loki!

Doomsday is highly resistant to mind control. That's not only a losing tactic, Loki can't win like that in this match. And aside from that, any magical blasts that Doomsday gets hit with, he instantly begins to adapt to. Again, he defeated hundreds of Green Lanterns at the same time. They were powerless to stop him. What's Loki going to do exactly?

[tnr105]

Loki would be able to survive anything Doomsday throws at him.

Regenerative Healing Factor: Like all Asgardians, Loki, although he is inhumanly durable, at least by human standards, can still obtain injury, also like all Asgardians, his metabolism enables him to rapidly regenerate damaged tissue much faster and more extensively than a human being. However, through the use of his sorcery, Loki's ability to heal himself is far above that of other Asgardians. His magical energies are so imbued into his body that he can reattach severed limbs and, while still a male, even reattached his own head at least once.

Superhuman Strength: Loki, without the aid of anything, through his own biology, possesses superhuman strength that is substantially superior to that of an average Asgardian female or male. In fact, Loki is currently stronger now than he was while male. He possesses sufficient physical strength to lift up to 50 tons[7]. It is possible, however, that she can further increase his strength through mystical enchantment on a temporary basis. While as a male Loki was still superhumanly strong as an average Asgardian male, he was strong enough to lift 30 tons , however his strength could be increased through mystical enchantment also.

Superhuman Stamina: Loki's Frost Giant metabolism grants him superhuman levels of physical stamina in practically all activities. He can exert himself at peak capacity for about 24 hours before fatigue begins to impair him. However, much like his physical strength and durability, Loki can temporarily augment his stamina through magical means.

Superhumanly Dense Tissue: Like all Asgardians, Loki's bodily tissues have roughly 3 times the density of the same tissues in a human being. While he has the looks and physical proportions of a much smaller person, the increased density of his body actually makes him several hundred pounds heavier than he appears. This increased density also contributes to his superhuman strength to a limited degree.

Superhuman Durability: The tissues of Loki's body are superhumanly durable and are roughly equal to those possessed by the average Asgardian male. However, at times, Loki had imbued himself with magical abilities that enable him to withstand injuries that would prove fatal to another Asgardian. He is able to withstand high caliber bullets, falls from great heights, powerful impact forces, exposure to temperature extremes and powerful energy blasts without being injured.

Superhuman Longevity: Like all Asgardians, Loki ages at a far slower rate than humans. However, unlike some other god pantheons like the Olympians, who stop aging completely at a certain point, Loki isn't fully immune to aging. Although he has recently been "reborn", he still has his memories of his previous life. While he is several millenia old, at least, he has the appearance and vitality of a young Asgardian man in his physical prime. Loki is immune to the effects of all known Earthly diseases and infections.

And he can use his sorcery to utterly destroy Doomsday.

orcery: Loki has the ability to generate and control a great quantity of mystical abilities for a variety of purposes, of which can be used to further enhance or augment his physical diagram, like his speed, strength, and stamina, but only temporarily. Being a telekinetic, Loki can influence the movement of objects and people with his mind, and as such, this power proves to be devastating and chaotic in nature. His known abilities include the ability to fire powerful beams of concussive force, generate highly durable force fields, bestow superhuman attributes to living beings or inanimate objects, or teleport across dimensions. He can also bring inanimate objects to life, or mystically imbue objects or beings with specific but temporary powers. He has, for example, augmented the might of human criminals as the Cobra and Sandu. These magical effects remain only for as long as he maintains the spell that created them. Loki’s power has been said by the Silver Surfer during their early encounters as sufficient to “decimate a planet,” and according to Dormammu, Loki’s magic nearly rivals that of his own.

On top of all that, Loki could just turn Doomsday into a frog (It worked on Thor, will most likely work on Doomsday). Doomsday is nothing compared to the creatures Loki has faced. Those battles with Hulk and etc. were when he acted like a scrawny weakling hiding behind his powers. After JMS got a hold of Loki, he is no longer a coward and more aggressive he also gained new fighting skills (He defeated Bor's Disir by himself)...

Like most, I think you too are underestimating Loki.

[AmFan15]

If Loki has enough power to actually be able to kill him (he isn't, because he's not powerful enough to kill the Hulk), Doomsday would sense it and be on top of Loki before Loki knew what hit him.

Loki doesn't have to kill him, just incapacitate him somehow. And I still need more proof that he could adapt to magic...especially magic as powerful as Loki's.
From the wiki:

Loki’s power has been said by the Silver Surfer during their early encounters as sufficient to “decimate a planet,” and according to Dormammu, Loki’s magic nearly rivals that of his own...Loki has a genius level intellect and possesses a great deal of knowledge of the mystic arts, gifted with mastery superior to that of a Sorcerer Supreme's.

I still think, between his wits and his mystical prowess, Loki could pull this off...not saying it would be EASY, mind you, just that he might be able to do it.

[Thrawn]

Loki doesn't have to kill him, just incapacitate him somehow.

The only way to truly incapacitate Doomsday is to kill him with physical attacks. Doomsday adapts to every other form of attack. Including magic. Magic is a type of energy. Doomsday has been exposed to it before. He's adapted beyond it.

Loki has a genius level intellect and possesses a great deal of knowledge of the mystic arts, gifted with mastery superior to that of a Sorcerer Supreme's.

And it's completely irrelevant. Loki's intelligence is useless against Doomsday, the same as Superman, Darksied, and the Guardian's was.

I still think, between his wits and his mystical prowess, Loki could pull this off...not saying it would be EASY, mind you, just that he might be able to do it.

Darkseid couldn't, and hundreds of Green Lanterns at the same time couldn't even slow him down. He butchered them all. So unless you believe that Loki would defeat Darkseid, and could handle hundreds of Green Lanterns at the same time, there's no way Loki does. Really think about that. Imagine Kyle, Hal, Guy, and John Stewart all attacking Loki at the same time. Do you think Loki would win?

On top of all that, Loki could just turn Doomsday into a frog (It worked on Thor, will most likely work on Doomsday).

Check this out from Darkseid's wiki:

Matter Manipulation: Darkseid can transmute and manipulate matter, and in extension atoms, at will; he can destroy humans with a mere thought, and as such, he can even create his own creature complexions by design out of nothing, as he did when he created the being known as Strayne. Also, Darkseid can cause organisms to degrade and de-evolve.

Molecular Dispersion: He is also able to dissipate and disperse the molecules of an object or organism, effectively erasing them from existence.

Same as Loki. You know what? Those don't work on Doomsday. Whether it's cosmic energy, or magic, they are both forms of energy and they have rules they must abide by. Doomsday's cellular structure allows him to adapt to and overcome all forms of energy. He's been exposed to magic and cosmic energy. He overcomes it all.

Those battles with Hulk and etc. were when he acted like a scrawny weakling hiding behind his powers.

Now we're making progress. The fact remains he has lost to the Hulk. He was hiding behind his powers because the Hulk is too powerful for him to take on open combat. Thor is as well. Loki couldn't defeat Superman, Darkseid, or Wonder Woman in a fight.

Doomsday has.

Loki would be able to survive anything Doomsday throws at him.

No. The wiki list of powers for Loki are impressive, but so are Superman's and Darkseid's. Doomsday defeated them both. Loki is no different. Loki is no where near the strongest Asgardian. Doomsday outclasses him so far in strength it isn't even funny.

See here is the point I feel you're missing:

Waverider paralyzed Doomsday once with chronal energy, but the second attempt backlashed on him. In essence, Doomsday can become as invulnerable as necessary

Doomsday adapts beyond anything he encounters. It doesn't matter if he hasn't encountered Loki's magic before. He has encounter magic before, and adapted beyond it. Loki can hit him with a blast, then three, and by the fifth blast, he's adapted beyond it to the point where it has started to lose it's effectiveness.

And I still need more proof that he could adapt to magic...especially magic as powerful as Loki's.

I don't know what more proof you need man. Hulk has beaten Loki, Doomsday is more powerful than the Hulk.

Doomsday evolves beyond all forms of energy attacks. Magic is a form of energy. Doomsday has been exposed to magic before. He's been proven to be able to adapt to it. So that proves he can adapt to magic. The specific power of the sorcery doesn't matter. Doomsday can and will adapt to it. And if the Hulk can take blasts from Loki, Doomsday can as well. He's taken blasts from dozens of Green Lanterns at the same time, and full force Omega Beams from Darkseid. Those are at least comparable to Loki's powers. Magic is a different form of energy, but Doomsday has a proven ability to adapt to it.



For all his power, that hasn't stopped the Hulk from standing head to head with Loki before.

Like most, I think you too are underestimating Loki.

Nah. I like Loki. I just don't overestimate the value of magic, which seems to be the big argument for Loki. Magic is not the ultimate trump card. Zatana in the DCU is one of the most powerful people on the planet, and Doomsday would murder her as well.

The only other argument for Loki being made is his intelligence and that's a flat out ridiculous argument when intelligence can't overcome Doomsday's sheer power in a straight up fight. Neither Darkseid or Superman could outsmart Doomsday, because he's too powerful to deal with like that. He just comes at you nonstop.

And again, Doomsday is faster than Loki. He is not a slow brute. He's inhumanly fast. The first hit of the match won't be Loki, it will be Doomsday.

[AmFan15]

And I still need more proof that he could adapt to magic...especially magic as powerful as Loki's.

I don't know what more proof you need man. Hulk has beaten Loki, Doomsday is more powerful than the Hulk.

Doomsday evolves beyond all forms of energy attacks. Magic is a form of energy. Doomsday has been exposed to magic before. He's been proven to be able to adapt to it. So that proves he can adapt to magic. The specific power of the sorcery doesn't matter. Doomsday can and will adapt to it. And if the Hulk can take blasts from Loki, Doomsday can as well. He's taken blasts from dozens of Green Lanterns at the same time, and full force Omega Beams from Darkseid. Those are at least comparable to Loki's powers. Magic is a different form of energy, but Doomsday has a proven ability to adapt to it.



For all his power, that hasn't stopped the Hulk from standing to toe with him before.

Alright, Thrawn, I'll throw my vote Doomsday's way...for now.
Tnr, it's up to you to sway me back. I WANT to vote for Loki, I really do...I just need a reason to.

[CrazyChris]

Thrawn, is there an example of Doomsday defeating someone who is not just intelligent, but has Loki's specific form of intelligence, which is mastery of deception? Superman is extremely smart, but lies and dirty tricks are not his MO. Could Loki perhaps best him with deception and/or illusions?

[Thrawn]

Alright, Thrawn, I'll throw my vote Doomsday's way...for now.
Tnr, it's up to you to sway me back. I WANT to vote for Loki, I really do...I just need a reason to.

Alright, how about this. It requires some fancy foot work, but it also helps to make my case in my opinion. Remember Larfleeze? This came up in that fight:

Energy Absorption: The Orange rings have have the unique ability to absorb the constructs of other ring wielders. The power is so great that even constructs made by the likes of the Guardians of the Universe can be absorbed. It seems as though no form of energy is exempt from this ability as they also can absorb magic.

See that? Now an orange Lantern is apparently slightly different from a Green Lantern, but still a similar concept. If an Orange Lantern can absorb magic, and Doomsday can handle Green Lantern energy without any difficulty whatsoever, and he's been exposed to magic before, it's a given to me that he can handle Loki's sorcery.

Something else, George said he considered Doctor Strange to be at least as potent as Loki. Well, didn't World War Hulk defeat Doctor Strange? Combine that with Doomsday's ability to adapt and evolve, and I have no doubt he can take Loki.

Magic is not the be all end all. It's still energy.

Check this out. From the Obi Wan Kenobi vs Doc Strange fight:

George Berryman wrote:

What does Strange use when he's using magic? He's using three different types of energy - personal, universal or extra-dimensional. So Obi-Wan can deflect those? Yep. Better than Mumm-Ra ever could, too.

It's the same concept for me. Doomsday can adapt to all forms of energy, and Asgard sorcery is still energy.

[Thrawn]

Thrawn, is there an example of Doomsday defeating someone who is not just intelligent, but has Loki's specific form of intelligence, which is mastery of deception? Superman is extremely smart, but lies and dirty tricks are not his MO. Could Loki perhaps best him with deception and/or illusions?

Darkseid can influence people's minds.

Could Loki perhaps best him with deception and/or illusions?

How? Basically the only way to put Doomsday down is to physcially defeat him. Aside from that, no I don't think so. Doomsday isn't mindless. He does possess a form of evolutionary sense that allows him to sense threats to an extent. He'd ignore any illusions and just zero in on Loki as he's done in the past. In the Hunter Prey min-series Doomsday was content to ignore Superman because he 'knew' Superman couldn't defeat him a second time.

Doomsday is like the Hulk in many regards, but different. He's genetically engineered to find threats and kill them. This sometimes allows him to sense individuals and the danger they represent. Not like Spider-Man's spider sense, but sort of that idea I guess.

Also Doomsday put a Green Lantern ring on after he killed the Green Lantern wearing it with a single hit. He was able to sense the Guardians when they focused on him. They couldn't stop him either.

Illusions are not physical threats. He isn't going to be able to influence Doomsday's mind. That requires magic, and Doomsday in addition to being very hard to mind control, Doomsday would adapt to the mind control magic. Even if he was being mind controlled, there's no way for Loki to defeat him.

On top of that, look where they're at. In the middle of nowhere.

Add to the fact that Doomsday would be on top of Loki before he knew what hit him. Again, Doomsday has taken hundreds of Green Lanterns, and taken teams of super heroes. Loki is by himself here.