"It is I, Bruce Lee, the deadliest man to have ever walked the Earth with the possible exception of John Wayne or George Berryman. The Gong of Conflict has once again been pounded upon - it is time to FIGHT!"
"This week George Berryman challenged AmFan15, who accepted. As his champion, AmFan15 went with a champion that George had argued for last season... the Swedish Murder Machine, BROCK SAMSON!"
"In response, George Berryman selected one of Marvel's most prolific man-killers... Frank Castle, the PUNISHER!"
"And with George's selection Frank Castle has now hit the "Two & Through" limit and is no longer eligible for play in season two. Now, with the combatants chosen, George Berryman informs me that he has selected Liberty City as tonight's fight venue."
"Modeled after New York City, Liberty City serves as the dystopian city setting for the popular Grand Theft Auto IV game."
"Murderous Bodyguard against Vigilante Killer! Those are your choices! Who wins? Who loses? You decide. Vote NOW! Take us away, Elvis Presley!"
I absolutely love Brock Samson. But when it comes to straight-up stone cold killing the Punisher still has the edge.
Brock typically carries a knife, a handgun, a lighter and a pack of smokes - but he's resourceful. The Punisher typically carries... well a lot more.
They're both able to mow through armies of thugs as well as take on superpowered types. They are both notoriously hard to kill and even if you do kill them they don't stay dead long cause they're both too mean.
But when you look at the opponents that the Punisher has faced, and the hits he's thrown down... the villains and heroes he's gone toe-to-toe with before... in my mind the Punisher has the edge with tactics, quick thinking and experience. I love, love, love Brock Samson but he really is more of a blunt force instrument, whereas Frank Castle's the surgeon cutting away the dead tissue from the wounds of society.
Straight up, this is Franks' fight. I expect it to be close (especially since I've argued for Samson last year against Jason Voorhees and I know how tough he is) but when it's all said and done Frank's the one that walks away.
Although the Punisher is a fierce combatant, and a scourge to the criminal underworld, Brock Samson has him outmatched, in almost every way.
Brock Fights Fiercer Foes. Punisher usually goes up against mostly street level criminals, and the occasional super hero/villain. Brock not only fights super villains on a daily basis, but he's also fought mummies, robots, polar bears, alligators, pirates, ghosts, giant stone monoliths, the Krampus (a Christmas demon), and a Sasquatch...most of whom he defeated with his bare hands! One guy with a few guns, as skilled as he may be, shouldn't pose much of a problem for him.
Brock Has More Extensive Training. Frank got most of his training from his years in the Marine Corps...A formidable organization indeed. But Brock ALSO was trained by the Marines. When they saw how skilled he actually was, he was then recruited by the OSI (Office of Secret Intelligence). He underwent further, even more intense training with them (One of their training regiments was to dump him in a pool filled with harpoon-wielding enemies, a man-eating shark, and all the while, hand grenades were being chucked into the pool!!! ). Not only did he survive, he soon became one of their greatest agents. THAT's how tough he is.
As for his reluctance to carry a gun, according to his Wiki entry:
He generally disdains firearms, preferring to kill instead with his hands or his Bowie knife, but occasionally makes exceptions for certain projectile weapons. Despite his disdain for guns, he is an excellent marksman: in the episode "The Incredible Mr. Bisby", Brock repeatedly stops the fall of Dr. Venture by pinning the cuff of his pants to the wall with a dart-gun.
He would not be adverse to using guns if he has to, he simply prefers not to...it lacks the personal touch.
As for strength and endurance?
In fits of rage he exhibits near super-human strength, a facial twitch, and the ability to endure almost any kind of physical punishment, including unprotected exposure to the vacuum of outer space. During surgery to remove a bullet from his shoulder in the episode Hate Floats, his body is discovered to harbor three additional bullets, "a blowgun dart, two shark's teeth, the tip of a bayonet, a twisted paper clip, and a meager handful of buckshot," which he had apparently failed to notice.
And God help Frank if Brock gets his hands on a vehicle!
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
AmFan15 wrote:Punisher usually goes up against mostly street level criminals, and the occasional super hero/villain. Brock not only fights super villains on a daily basis, but he's also fought mummies, robots, polar bears, alligators, pirates, ghosts, giant stone monoliths, the Krampus (a Christmas demon), and a Sasquatch...most of whom he defeated with his bare hands! One guy with a few guns, as skilled as he may be, shouldn't pose much of a problem for him.
Samson fights supervillains like the Monarch. Now I love the Monarch, but *I* could beat the goddamn Monarch. And the Monarch's goons aren't even "tough mafia" level. They're incompetent.
AmFan15 wrote:Frank got most of his training from his years in the Marine Corps...A formidable organization indeed. But Brock ALSO was trained by the Marines. When they saw how skilled he actually was, he was then recruited by the OSI (Office of Secret Intelligence). He underwent further, even more intense training with them (One of their training regiments was to dump him in a pool filled with harpoon-wielding enemies, a man-eating shark, and all the while, hand grenades were being chucked into the pool!!! ). Not only did he survive, he soon became one of their greatest agents. THAT's how tough he is.
Master Martial Artist: Castle is a seasoned combat veteran of exceptional skills. He is well-versed in the arts of warfare and hand-to-hand combat. His styles of choice being Nash Ryu Ju Jitsu, (the four-style martial art founded by his Sensei Adam Nash and the Marine Corps LINE combat system) Ninjutsu, Shorin-Ryu, Hwarangdo, and Chin Na. He is an exceptional knife fighter who carries up to 3 or 4 different types of edged weapons, preferring the knife he learned to fight with in the USMC: the Ka-bar.
Frank's also taken down Dardevil before and has gone to war with the Hand in the past. Not incompetent goons like the Monarch employs. Elite ninjas.
AmFan15 wrote:
He generally disdains firearms, preferring to kill instead with his hands or his Bowie knife, but occasionally makes exceptions for certain projectile weapons. Despite his disdain for guns, he is an excellent marksman: in the episode "The Incredible Mr. Bisby", Brock repeatedly stops the fall of Dr. Venture by pinning the cuff of his pants to the wall with a dart-gun.
He would not be adverse to using guns if he has to, he simply prefers not to...it lacks the personal touch.
And the Punisher's starting off the fight armed to the teeth. I love Samson, and he's hard to take down, but he's not bulletproof.
AmFan15 wrote:As for strength and endurance?
In fits of rage he exhibits near super-human strength, a facial twitch, and the ability to endure almost any kind of physical punishment, including unprotected exposure to the vacuum of outer space. During surgery to remove a bullet from his shoulder in the episode Hate Floats, his body is discovered to harbor three additional bullets, "a blowgun dart, two shark's teeth, the tip of a bayonet, a twisted paper clip, and a meager handful of buckshot," which he had apparently failed to notice.
And again... he's not bulletproof.
AmFan15 wrote:And God help Frank if Brock gets his hands on a vehicle!
AmFan15 wrote:Punisher usually goes up against mostly street level criminals, and the occasional super hero/villain. Brock not only fights super villains on a daily basis, but he's also fought mummies, robots, polar bears, alligators, pirates, ghosts, giant stone monoliths, the Krampus (a Christmas demon), and a Sasquatch...most of whom he defeated with his bare hands! One guy with a few guns, as skilled as he may be, shouldn't pose much of a problem for him.
Samson fights supervillains like the Monarch. Now I love the Monarch, but *I* could beat the goddamn Monarch. And the Monarch's goons aren't even "tough mafia" level. They're incompetent.
And if we were only discussing the Monarch and his henchmen, I might be inclined to agree...but we're not. In addition to the extensive list I've already mentioned, Brock's also fought Phantom Limb, Baron Underbheidt (think Dr. Doom), Monstroso (A satanic version of the Kingpin), Professor Impossible (Mr Fantastic), and many other members of the Guild of Calamitous Intent. And I don't recall ever seeing the Punisher battle gigantic living stone monoliths with his bare hands before, do you?
George Berryman wrote:
AmFan15 wrote:Frank got most of his training from his years in the Marine Corps...A formidable organization indeed. But Brock ALSO was trained by the Marines. When they saw how skilled he actually was, he was then recruited by the OSI (Office of Secret Intelligence). He underwent further, even more intense training with them (One of their training regiments was to dump him in a pool filled with harpoon-wielding enemies, a man-eating shark, and all the while, hand grenades were being chucked into the pool!!! ). Not only did he survive, he soon became one of their greatest agents. THAT's how tough he is.
Master Martial Artist: Castle is a seasoned combat veteran of exceptional skills. He is well-versed in the arts of warfare and hand-to-hand combat. His styles of choice being Nash Ryu Ju Jitsu, (the four-style martial art founded by his Sensei Adam Nash and the Marine Corps LINE combat system) Ninjutsu, Shorin-Ryu, Hwarangdo, and Chin Na. He is an exceptional knife fighter who carries up to 3 or 4 different types of edged weapons, preferring the knife he learned to fight with in the USMC: the Ka-bar.
Frank's also taken down Dardevil before and has gone to war with the Hand in the past. Not incompetent goons like the Monarch employs. Elite ninjas.
Brock has taken down the OSI's top 3 assassins SINGLE-HANDED. Technically, that means he's inherited the #1 position. Also, villains throughout the world have come to fear the term "Death By Samson", a phrase they themselves came up with to spread the word: If Brock Samson wants you dead, you WILL die...in a horrible, painful, torturous way.
George Berryman wrote:
AmFan15 wrote:
He generally disdains firearms, preferring to kill instead with his hands or his Bowie knife, but occasionally makes exceptions for certain projectile weapons. Despite his disdain for guns, he is an excellent marksman: in the episode "The Incredible Mr. Bisby", Brock repeatedly stops the fall of Dr. Venture by pinning the cuff of his pants to the wall with a dart-gun.
He would not be adverse to using guns if he has to, he simply prefers not to...it lacks the personal touch.
And the Punisher's starting off the fight armed to the teeth. I love Samson, and he's hard to take down, but he's not bulletproof.
He doesn't need to be. As I quoted before:
In fits of rage he exhibits near super-human strength, a facial twitch, and the ability to endure almost any kind of physical punishment, including unprotected exposure to the vacuum of outer space. During surgery to remove a bullet from his shoulder in the episode Hate Floats, his body is discovered to harbor three additional bullets, "a blowgun dart, two shark's teeth, the tip of a bayonet, a twisted paper clip, and a meager handful of buckshot," which he had apparently failed to notice.
Punisher might get a few shots off, but Brock's tough...he can take it.
Also, Punisher might have more weapons at the start of the battle, but in Liberty City, there are PLENTY of opportunities Brock might use to his advantage. You said it yourself: Brock is resourceful. He can (and will)turn anything into a weapon. Hell, I've seen him fight off an entire gang of killers...while NAKED! He used his socks to strangle some, his shirt to disarm one...and he walked out without a scratch. He could use vehicles, trash cans, or pipes to throw at Punisher, either knocking him out, knocking his gun out of his hands, or at the very least, throwing him off balance while Brock moves in for the kill. He could kill some gangsters or drug dealers, and use their weapons against Frank. Hell, I'm betting he could find a way to turn Punisher's own weapons against him!
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
AmFan15 wrote:And if we were only discussing the Monarch and his henchmen, I might be inclined to agree...but we're not. In addition to the extensive list I've already mentioned, Brock's also fought Phantom Limb, Baron Underbheidt (think Dr. Doom), Monstroso (A satanic version of the Kingpin), Professor Impossible (Mr Fantastic), and many other members of the Guild of Calamitous Intent. And I don't recall ever seeing the Punisher battle gigantic living stone monoliths with his bare hands before, do you?
I guess he was too busy killing superpowered Skrulls armed with advanced alien technology. Somehow I don't think ancient stone monolith giants are going to scare him much.
AmFan15 wrote:Brock has taken down the OSI's top 3 assassins SINGLE-HANDED. Technically, that means he's inherited the #1 position. Also, villains throughout the world have come to fear the term "Death By Samson", a phrase they themselves came up with to spread the word: If Brock Samson wants you dead, you WILL die...in a horrible, painful, torturous way.
That's because the Punisher doesn't exist in the Venture Bros. universe. He inspires the same sort of fear in America's criminal underworld in the Marvel Universe. The two are equivalent.
AmFan15 wrote:He would not be adverse to using guns if he has to, he simply prefers not to...it lacks the personal touch.
And it's not going to do him much good when he's facing an opponent who is a walking ranged arsenal.
AmFan15 wrote:Punisher might get a few shots off, but Brock's tough...he can take it.
Tough and yet not bulletproof; you've just told us he needed surgery to remove a bullet from his shoulder. If a bullet puts him on the operating table here this fight's done. And this is the Punisher, not some random Monarch thug with a popgun. Frank aims for the vitals, not shoulders.
AmFan15 wrote:Also, Punisher might have more weapons at the start of the battle, but in Liberty City, there are PLENTY of opportunities Brock might use to his advantage. You said it yourself: Brock is resourceful. He can (and will)turn anything into a weapon. Hell, I've seen him fight off an entire gang of killers...while NAKED! He used his socks to strangle some, his shirt to disarm one...and he walked out without a scratch. He could use vehicles, trash cans, or pipes to throw at Punisher, either knocking him out, knocking his gun out of his hands, or at the very least, throwing him off balance while Brock moves in for the kill. He could kill some gangsters or drug dealers, and use their weapons against Frank. Hell, I'm betting he could find a way to turn Punisher's own weapons against him!
He can use whatever he can get his hands on but the Punisher's still starting off with a far more substantial ranged attack advantage.
AmFan15 wrote:Punisher might get a few shots off, but Brock's tough...he can take it.
Tough and yet not bulletproof; you've just told us he needed surgery to remove a bullet from his shoulder. If a bullet puts him on the operating table here this fight's done. And this is the Punisher, not some random Monarch thug with a popgun. Frank aims for the vitals, not shoulders.
You missed the part where he had three more bullets in him that he'd been walking around with for God knows how long, and they didn't bother him in the slightest.
Y'know how many times Brock has been dismembered by a villain, and brought back to life as a Frankenstein Monster? None? Yeah, that's what I thought...
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
AmFan15 wrote:You missed the part where he had three more bullets in him that he'd been walking around with for God knows how long, and they didn't bother him in the slightest.
And again - yet one bullet in the shoulder puts him on an operating table. Like I said, Frank doesn't aim for shoulders. He aims for vitals.
AmFan15 wrote:Y'know how many times Brock has been dismembered by a villain, and brought back to life as a Frankenstein Monster? None? Yeah, that's what I thought...
He has the advantage of better writing. And even as a Frankenpunisher he still could've kicked Brock's ass. As I recall even Brock was put in a grave and thought to be dead once.
George Berryman wrote:As I recall even Brock was put in a grave and thought to be dead once.
There's a big difference between thought to be dead, and cut to pieces dead.
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
If a bullet to the shoulder puts him into surgery, what's incendiary grenade shrapnel going to do? Especially when used by someone who actually knows what the Hell he's doing with one?
I just rewatched the episode in question, when Brock got shot. He was distracted by the fact that Dr. Venture and the boys were in danger, and thus was not operating at the top of his game. He also had an entire gang of criminals to battle. In this battle, however, he has no such distractions. Doc and the boys are safe at home, and Brock is free to be as bloodthirsty as he wants. And this time, he's only got one enemy to concentrate on, and a ton of resources to use to his advantage.
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
The point remains and the question has yet to be answered - if even a bullet to the shoulder can bring him down to the point he needs surgery then what's a grenade thrown by someone who's an expert in using them going to do? Or a sniper rifle? Or an SMG?
Typically when Brock's fighting legions of bad guys they're goons who can barely tie their shoes, let alone shoot something. When he's at his best he's in hand to hand against someone. Yet here he's going to be outgunned right off the bat because he prefers it "up close and personal." Here, "up close and personal" without a piece puts him in the E.R.
Like I said before, just because Brock doesn't like to use guns, he won't hesitate to use one if he has to.
Also, as far as being hit, there's plenty of objects he could use to shield himself. He could duck down a sewer, use a manhole cover offensively or defensively like Captain America's shield, or jump behind a dumpster, using it for cover while simultaneously sending it hurling toward Frank. There are also plenty of vehicles Brock could use for cover, or use as weapons. For Brock Samson, the world is his weapon.
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
"The ground quakes and the heavens cry tears of blood when Kevin gives out his brand of Crawlspace justice. Babies cry, grown men avert their eyes, women pass out and even the wind gives pause. Kevin’s eyes glow and lightning crackles around them. It’s pretty epic and definitely not for the timid." - Michael Bailey
). Not only did he survive, he soon became one of their greatest agents. THAT's how tough he is.
