What is more controversial

[BertoneBeatle]

We had a debate about this on the "Clone Saga Chronicles" podcast a few months back.

Basically what period of Spider-Man do you think is more controversial? Clone Saga or OMD/BND/OMIT?

I may surprise some of you by saying CLONE SAGA. Yes I am a fan of it, and yes I am producing a podcast about that era...but in my opinion the worse stuff is REALLY bad.

* We were told that the Spider-Man we had been reading for around twenty years wasn't the real Spider-Man. A massive retcon. YES they went back on it, but this is what was happening at the time. So the Spider-Man we read in issue 300 wasn't the same from issue 100, but was the same from issue 200. Lots of implications.

* Doctor Octopus killed off just so Kaine can be bigged up.

* Peter joined the Jackal. I don't mind "brainwashed" into joining the Jackal. He didn't have amnesia. He wasn't tricked into thinking Jackal was a good guy. NO! He joined the evil side. Something I forgot to mention on the podcast debate. Something Peter has never done in OMD/BND/OMIT.

* Peter hit his pregnant wife. Don't give me the "he didn't see her" retcon. Looking at the issue makes it clear he knew what he was doing.

* Baby May miscarried. Yes. That.

* Norman Osborn's resurrection. At this point he's been back for so long it's just accepted. Truth be told, him being back has added alot to the stories since. However, at the time this was a major defiling of the classic "Night Gwen Stacy Died" two-parter. Think bringing Kraven back for "Grim Hunt" was bad? This was worse. It's a major change to a classic story. Norman Osborn's death was considered one of the most classic deaths in the series at that point.

Show me something in OMD/BND/OMIT that Peter did which is worse than him joining the Jackal and hitting his pregnant wife.

[Proto Goblin]

I didn't vote simply because I can't really decide. You do bring up excellent points as to why the clone saga actually should be considered the more controversial. However that deal with the devil seems about as much going to the dark side as joining the jackal was for me so Im just gonna say in my mind its a tie right now. Might come back later and give a vote if I can actually make a decision between the two though.

Also Id like to say ive enjoyed your clone saga podcasts and have listened to every episode except the trial of peter parker ones because for some reason they play at super speed when ever I click play on them so I can't understand anything thats being said. Do you know why its doing that for those two episodes only and how I can fix it? Because I really wanna listen to the you and your panels views on the trial of peter parker.

[Donomark]

Upon hearing the podcast debate on the subject, you'll know where I stand.

[FSUSpiderFan]

It's hard to say because they are both so very crazy from a story stand point. i believe the OMD status quo is now surpassing the Clone Saga with no end in sight.

[bdog]

It's hard to say because they are both so very crazy from a story stand point. i believe the OMD status quo is now surpassing the Clone Saga with no end in sight.

Definitely agreed, I think the Clone Saga has become more beloved while OMD is still receiving constant hate.

[Berserkfury819]

Writers and editors of the Clone Saga didn't insult people online, at conventions, and put constant reality slaps in the books.

[NickMB]

It's hard to say because they are both so very crazy from a story stand point. i believe the OMD status quo is now surpassing the Clone Saga with no end in sight.

Definitely agreed, I think the Clone Saga has become more beloved while OMD is still receiving constant hate.

I think that's a false comparison. People are looking back on the clone saga more kindly now because it has been undone. If the marriage was restored tomorrow, people might look back on the BND/Big Time stories and start to be kinder about the parts of them that were genuinely good.

[AmFan15]

It's hard to say because they are both so very crazy from a story stand point. i believe the OMD status quo is now surpassing the Clone Saga with no end in sight.

Definitely agreed, I think the Clone Saga has become more beloved while OMD is still receiving constant hate.

I think that's a false comparison. People are looking back on the clone saga more kindly now because it has been undone. If the marriage was restored tomorrow, people might look back on the BND/Big Time stories and start to be kinder about the parts of them that were genuinely good.

People (myself included) are looking back on the Clone Saga as ABF (Acceptable But Flawed) because we've seen how much worse this has become.
And the marriage being undone is not the problem with OMD, it's the method they used to get rid of it. A deal with the devil is completely unacceptable for a hero based on responsibility.
Yes, eventually OMD will be undone as well...though I highly doubt any of us will ever look back on it as ABF.

Look at it this way:
If a dog craps on the floor, and someone smells it, recognizes it as crap, and flushes it, I can accept it.
If, however, the dog crap is viewed as a "present", and put on the mantle for all to see, and anyone who complains about the smell gets insulted, then guess what?
I ain't goin' anywhere near that guy's house anymore!

EDIT: I liked that analogy so much, I had to add it as a signature!

[remoteman]

Probably the Clone Saga, as Nick said if OMD had been undone more quickly there would no doubt be less hatred directed at it. The importance of internet forums is also another massive factor that has contributed to the outcry against One More Day and Brand New Day.

[herbiepopnecker]

Probably the Clone Saga, as Nick said if OMD had been undone more quickly there would no doubt be less hatred directed at it. The importance of internet forums is also another massive factor that has contributed to the outcry against One More Day and Brand New Day.

Say what? OMD was undone. . .??
Sure wasn't undone to get things undone!

[remoteman]

My point is that there will be a stage when either it will be undone or people will stop talking it. Either way, the effects of OMD on the readership will probably not be permanent.

[Agent Michigan]

OMD/BND/OMIT because Clone Saga had it's good parts, but the OMD saga was much worse from the story standpoint. Also, almost half, HALF! Of Spidey's history was retcon-ed.

[NickMB]

OMD/BND/OMIT because Clone Saga had it's good parts, but the OMD saga was much worse from the story standpoint. Also, almost half, HALF! Of Spidey's history was retcon-ed.

Yes, OMD and OMIT were pretty bad, but so were large chunks of the clone saga. (Hello Maximum Cloneage.) They both had good issues and bad issues. I enjoyed a lot of the BND issues, I also enjoyed a lot of the Ben-as-Spidey stuff. Also, the question wasn't "Which was better?", it was "Which was more controversial?", and I think that's pretty impossible to gauge, simply because we didn't have the internet in use in the same way during the clone saga to serve as a helpful barometer of annoyance.
Certainly, the annoyance over OMD has gone on for longer, but I imagine that's because the big retcon is still in place. The Peter-is-the-clone retcon was in place for much less time than this. Does this make it more controversial? Or does that mean the controversy over the clone saga was bigger because it was enough to get it reversed?

[FSUSpiderFan]

Certainly, the annoyance over OMD has gone on for longer, but I imagine that's because the big retcon is still in place. The Peter-is-the-clone retcon was in place for much less time than this. Does this make it more controversial? Or does that mean the controversy over the clone saga was bigger because it was enough to get it reversed?

or was it that Marvel actually cared about fans being upset back then so they reversed them selves and now they seem to revel in it?

[NickMB]

Certainly, the annoyance over OMD has gone on for longer, but I imagine that's because the big retcon is still in place. The Peter-is-the-clone retcon was in place for much less time than this. Does this make it more controversial? Or does that mean the controversy over the clone saga was bigger because it was enough to get it reversed?

or was it that Marvel actually cared about fans being upset back then so they reversed them selves and now they seem to revel in it?

Or maybe just removing the marriage isn't actually as big a change as replacing Peter Parker as Spider-Man with a blonde guy called Ben.

The post-OMD Spidey is still recognisable as Spider-Man in all the obvious ways. The post-clone saga one was not, which is the main reason it was always going to be undone. It's a lot easier to push forward with the current one. If you read Life Of Reilly, most of the reasons given for the reversal of the clone saga boil down to "this is too big a change".