Friendly Fire #39 - 'Hard on a BODY!'

[George Berryman]

"Hello darlings! It's me, the Pop Pumpkin Princess, First Lady of Snark and the Mistress of the Dark - Elvira!"

"Bruce Lee, who is surprisingly active on here for being a dead guy, is taking the next two weeks off so that I, Elvira, can host Halloween Havoc! here on the Friendly Fire Fight Club. Don't applaud, my little crypt misfits... just throw money, honey!

"Sometime last week, AmFan15... you am a fan of what, exactly?... challenged stillanerd, whose name speaks for itself.

"stillanerd picked a real party animal as his champion. A scholarly serial killer who can help out with snacks at any party, so long as you don't mind losing the dumbest guests. Say "Please pass the salt!" to Hannibal Lecter!"



"In response AmFan15 picked the Mauve Maestro of Maniacal Mayhem, the dirty, greasy crime clown from Christoper Nolan's 'The Dark Knight.' Lick your lips for the Heath Ledger flavor of... the Joker!



"Now that the two Fight Clubbers have chosen, George Berryman (who keeps tellin' me my front end's out of whack and keeps offering to pop my hood for free) has selected the University of Tennessee's Forensics Body Farm as tonight's fight venue! Meeee-OWW!"



"Having a lousy day? Well don't be so glum, chum! Make a donation to the University of Tennessee's Forensics Body Farm. It won't cost much - just your body after you've hit your expiration date. Founded in 1971, this facility covers two and a half acres of trees and planted decomposing human cadavers. Bodies are left to rot in various conditions, providing valuable information for medical examiners and other "we study dead people" professionals. Sounds like a great place for a picnic - if you're dating a zombie!

"Serial Killer against the master of clown inspired epic naughty! Who wins? Who loses? That's for you ghouls to figure out. Hit it, Ghoultown!"

[AmFan15]

Thanks, Elvira! Glad to see your knockers are still round...ER, I meant to say you're still knockin' around! (Sorry! Don't know what I was thinking! )


And now, the reasons I think The Joker should win
He's chaos incarnate, and is completely unpredictable...Hannibal may have been able to track down Buffalo Bill, but the Joker's in an entirely different league!

He fights dirty, and he's armed to the teeth, with guns and knives hidden everywhere...up his sleeves, in his pockets, even in his shoes!

Joker outsmarted Gordon, the GCPD, Harvey Dent...even Batman himself! And let's face it...Lecter may be very smart, but he just ain't the Bat!


And so, without further ado, let's get this Fight Club started!

[CrazyChris]

Neither seems significantly more cunning than the other. Hannibal may be more "book smart" but I don't see that making much of a difference. Joker is perhaps younger and in better physical shape, but again I don't see it being that big of a difference.

After thinking about it, I'm voting for the Joker for at least two reasons.

1. Hannibal seems to play by some set of rules, albeit rules only he knows. Clarice sensed this in Silence of the Lambs when she said he wouldn't come after her because he would think it was "rude." Joker has absolutely no boundaries that I could gather from the Dark Knight. Now, I'm skeptical of the "nastier opponent wins" argument that crops up now and then (see the Cartman/Nelson fight, for one), but in a battle of psychopaths where it pretty much does come down to sheer cruelty, I think the Joker has it.

2. Hannibal often relies on toying with his victims psychologically. I don't think that's going to work on the Joker. His mind is so dead-set on causing chaos and corruption that he's completely above (or beneath?) any kind of coercion or manipulation.

EDIT: I also notice a disparity in the weapons listed on the fight cards. If that's really what they're coming in with, then I see no way Joker can lose.

[FSUSpiderFan]

Maybe Lecter can give Joker some psychotherapy before he tries to eat his brains...

[BertoneBeatle]

Joker has survived being shot, blown up, falling out of airplanes etc

He'll be fine.

[CrazyChris]

Joker has survived being shot, blown up, falling out of airplanes etc

He'll be fine.

In all fairness, the Joker of Nolan's film never had any of those happen to him. But to turn that into a plus, it means he's too smart to let it happen. He's always thinking one step ahead of everyone else.

[George Berryman]

In all fairness, the Joker of Nolan's film never had any of those happen to him.

Right. And the Nolan version was the version specifically picked.

But to turn that into a plus, it means he's too smart to let it happen. He's always thinking one step ahead of everyone else.

I don't know that this gives him an advantage over Lecter though, who can often claim the same.

[Kevin Cushing]

All the Joker needs is a fucking pencil. Eraser end up.

[stillanerd]

*sigh* Dear me. I'm afraid I'll have to re-educate some of you fine people of just who Dr. Hannibal Lecter is and what he's capable of, don't I?

Granted, the Joker is certainly a devious, clever, and dangerous psychopath, and is indeed someone who is capable of manipulating people...but this is also his Achilles Heel. For you see, the Joker is actually dependent upon others to carry out his will, to enact his supposedly chaotic plans. Hannibal Lecter, on the other hand, doesn't need lackys. Oh sure, as a psychiatrist, he can get under people's skin and convince them to do thing--like making a man skin his own face and feed it to a starving pigs, for instance--but Lecter knows, thanks to time and experience, that in other to ensure a plan works and to do it well, you can't let anyone do your work for you.

I'd also remind people that Dr. Lecter has gone up against heavily armed men before and managed to hold his own quite well. I'm sure everyone remembers how he incapacitated two guards and broke out of a federal building full with heavily armed federal agents in Silence of the Lambs, yes? Not to mention how, with the exception of being captured by Jack Crawford--excuse me Will Graham (thanks for the reminder Thrawn)--which was pure dumb luck, by the way, considering how Graham almost died from that encounter--he has avoided capture by various police organizations around the world for years despite being on the FBI ten most wanted list and being wanted by interpol.

And BTW, his weapons are not just limited to Billy Clubs. He's also quite skilled with a scalpel, greased-ropes, electrical cords, embalming fluid, scythes, coliform, anesthetics, kitchen cutlery, letter openers, duct tape, mace, handcuffs...pretty much anything he gets his hands on can be used as a lethal weapon. Oh, did I mention that he also physically strong for his age and is skilled in martial arts, particularly the Japanese art of sword-fighting known as kenjutsu? The Joker may be a scrapper and handy with a knife, but is not exactly skilled in the art of fighting. Oh, and don't forget, Dr. Lecter is also quite handy with his teeth.

As for this idea that Dr. Lecter couldn't toy with the Joker psychologically--he'd just do what Batman did and remind the Joker that the only reason why he does what he does is because, deep down, underneath that grease-paint, glasow smile, and garish suit, he is a sad little man who desperately wants people to be as ugly and insane as him so he won't be lonely anymore. And if the Joker thinks that he can try and trip Dr. Lecter by saying "Well, don't ya see? You prove my point. Your proof that anyone can go mad," all Dr. Lecter would have to remind him is "Yes, but there's a difference. I'm comfortable being alone my personal darkness. Your not. Why else would you be so fixated on a man who dresses up night after night in a mask and cape to make superstitious cowards think he's a giant flying rodent?"

Oh, and he also excels and something the Joker certainly doesn't have...charm.

So that's my argument. What say you, doctor?

[AmFan15]

Ah, Stillanerd...fashionably late, I see! It's a pleasure hearing from you again!
Unfortunately, I feel I have to correct a few things here.

For you see, the Joker is actually dependent upon others to carry out his will, to enact his supposedly chaotic plans.

True, he likes to have his minions...the more, the merrier, after all! But he is anything but dependent on them. When he snuck into the meeting of all the crimelords, for example, he didn't have any assistance. He got past all their security undetected, until he decided to reveal his presence. If he wanted to, he could have slaughtered all of them right then and there! But he had far grander schemes in mind...and, as he said, "If you're good at something, never do it for free !".

Not to mention how, with the exception of being captured by Jack Crawford (which was pure dumb luck, by the way, considering how Crawford almost died from that encounter) he has avoided capture by various police organizations around the world for years despite being on the FBI ten most wanted list and being wanted by interpol.

True, but how long would he have avoided being found if he had come up against the Dark Knight? Not very, I suspect. After all, wasn't Lecter also found and captured by Mason Verger, another man with LOTS of money, who was obsessed with finding him? And he was also paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair?
And, whereas Dr. Lecter was captured by Crawford through "dumb luck", the Joker was only captured after Batman resorted to blanketing the ENTIRE CITY with an electronic sonar system, because he couldn't find him any other way. So, I'd say that Joker has the advantage in the stealth department as well!

Oh, did I mention that he also physically strong for his age and is skilled in martial arts, particularly the Japanese art of sword-fighting known as kenjutsu? The Joker may be a scrapper and handy with a knife, but is not exactly skilled in the art of fighting.

Joker's also proven handy with explosives, shotguns, and bazookas...He simply prefers knives, as a more personal touch, I suppose! IF Lecter manages to get past all Joker's traps, he might stand a chance...but that's a BIG if!

As for this idea that Dr. Lecter couldn't toy with the Joker psychologically--he'd just do what Batman did and remind the Joker that the only reason why he does what he does is because, deep down, underneath that grease-paint, glasow smile, and garish suit, he is a sad little man who desperately wants people to be as ugly and insane as him so he won't be lonely anymore.

And Joker will do what, exactly...break down into tears? Turn over a new leaf? Or laugh it off, and use the distraction provided by Lecter's analysis to set off the explosives he stashed away? I'm betting on Door #3!

"Why else would you be so fixated on a man who dresses up night after night in a mask and cape to make superstitious cowards think he's a giant flying rodent?"

The Joker is obsessed with ol' Bats because he's the only one who gives him a challenge. He said it himself: "I won't kill you...because you're just too much fun!" Dr. Lecter, however, he'd kill without hesitation. Hell, he'd probably even pull a few of his famous teeth, to keep as souvenirs!

[Thrawn]

with the exception of being captured by Jack Crawford (which was pure dumb luck, by the way, considering how Crawford almost died from that encounter)

Agent Will Graham captured Doctor Lecter. Not Jack Crawford. And you call yourself a nerd.

I hate having to choose here. My inner fanboy is screaming to vote for the Joker. However reason and logic is calling for Lecter.

----

I voted for Hannibal the Cannibal for a few crucial reasons.

First, Hannibal does have knowledge of hand to hand fighting techniques. Joker killed someone with a pencil which was awesome. Hannibal was mutilating bullies much bigger and stronger than him with his fists and nothing more than a fork when he was a child.

Second, He's stronger than the Joker, and he has training. In a physical fight, despite his age, Lecter takes this. No doubt.

Third, Hannibal is smarter than the Joker. Batman is smarter than the Joker and so is Hannibal.

This is an even match, but in the three main categories--strength, intelligence, hand to hand fighting knowledge--Hannibal outclasses the Joker.

2. Hannibal often relies on toying with his victims psychologically. I don't think that's going to work on the Joker. His mind is so dead-set on causing chaos and corruption that he's completely above (or beneath?) any kind of coercion or manipulation.

Hannibal is quite physical when he needs, or wants to be. He's more physically fit and stronger than the Joker. Many of the Joker's subsequent portrayal in the last 10-15 years are directly influenced by Hannibal. So there's that as well. The Joker has been made much more into a comic book version of Lecter over the years. Which is a good thing in my opinion.

The Joker is also susceptible to manipulation as well. I don't think that's particularly going to come into play here, but Batman can manipulate the Joker quite well and if Batman can, Lecter can too. But again, I don't seen that coming into play here.

---Bottom line is this, it's a physical fight and Hannibal is more than capable of taking the Joker. He's stronger, and he's got hand to hand fighting skills. He's just as capable of killing you with pencils, forks, and paperclips as the Joker. Hannibal also is adept with scalpels, crossbows, bow and arrows, and Japanese katana swords.

In fact the pencil trick was (intentional or not) directly stolen from Hannibal's M.O. Remember the precautions that sanitarium had in place for Hannibal? Why do you think that was? The modern Joker and the mystique he enjoys owes it's existence to Hannibal Lecter.





I can't say that either is a superior character over the other, but in a one on one fight, Hannibal is superior. There's no doubt about that.

[Peter Palmer]

This is a really good fight. I really like both of these characters, so it's not really a matter of favoritism. Both men are extremely capable, intelligent and dangerous.

I voted for the Joker. It seems like his whole thing is taking people down a peg, and always seems to be one step ahead of everyone else.

[Thrawn]

I voted for the Joker. It seems like his whole thing is taking people down a peg, and always seems to be one step ahead of everyone else.

Except you don't get one step ahead of Hannibal. You only get lucky with him, or you die.

---

It's funny. I just came across this pic accidentally, but it's 100% appropriate here.

[AmFan15]

Neither seems significantly more cunning than the other. Hannibal may be more "book smart" but I don't see that making much of a difference. Joker is perhaps younger and in better physical shape, but again I don't see it being that big of a difference.

After thinking about it, I'm voting for the Joker for at least two reasons.

1. Hannibal seems to play by some set of rules, albeit rules only he knows. Clarice sensed this in Silence of the Lambs when she said he wouldn't come after her because he would think it was "rude." Joker has absolutely no boundaries that I could gather from the Dark Knight. Now, I'm skeptical of the "nastier opponent wins" argument that crops up now and then (see the Cartman/Nelson fight, for one), but in a battle of psychopaths where it pretty much does come down to sheer cruelty, I think the Joker has it.

2. Hannibal often relies on toying with his victims psychologically. I don't think that's going to work on the Joker. His mind is so dead-set on causing chaos and corruption that he's completely above (or beneath?) any kind of coercion or manipulation.

Plus, I think the Joker has more opportunities here...after all, the Body Farm is 2.5 acres, with dozens of bodies scattered around. Lecter has to find him first, while Joker has plenty of areas to set a few traps. (A grenade hidden inside a cadaver, stretching some razor wire between the trees, etc.) Picture "Home Alone", but with an R-rating.

[Hambone]

Hannibal's only edge is that he might be able to use his brillant mind to figure out what makes the Joker tick; he'd probably be useful for helping the Gotham police force track him down when Batman is busy, but that won't be too useful when dodging bullets and gernades. Most of the people he's manipulated in the past (like Mason) seem to be a liitle dense, I don't see the Joker falling under his sway.

Plus, the Joker can kill you with something as simple as a pencil!