Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by WolfCypher » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:45 pm

hornacek wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm
I think I commented this in the YouTube comments when this was recorded, but when Brad was asking callers (and the panel) what Slott's best story was, some people said Superior, but I'm surprised no one specifically said "Dying Wish" aka ASM #698, the issue that reads as Peter Parker but you find out at the end that he was Doc Ock the entire time. When the panel reviewed this issue, I think the lowest grade was A, with some giving it an A+. Still a great issue.
I remember loving the first part of that story, where we discover the "twist" at the end, but the overall arc was a letdown for me. He wrote part 1 with such nuance, then Slotted it all up with the concluding issues.
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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by Big Al » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:05 pm

hornacek wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:26 pm
Big Al wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:03 am
Thank god he's gone is what I say.

On what was specifically said on the show though I'm sorry JR but...what was so bad about Michelinie's ASM run that it was worse than:

a) DeMatteis' where he had Spidey enter a web cocoon
I don't blame DeMatteis for that. That was more of the direction Marvel was taking the character - dark, gritty. And I can't remember if they had decided at that point or not to bring back Ben Reilly as the fun Spider-Man, so they were doing everything they could to make Peter seem more serious and downbeat. Dematteis had many more high points and successes to let this one thing bring down his average.
Big Al wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:03 am
b) the Mackie run where Spidey was homeless and dealing with Green Goblin V who was a clone of nobdoy?
Mackie's problem during this run (and I think he admitted it himself in an interview on this podcast) is that he was burned out writing ASM and PPSM every month. If all we had was his ASM run then I'd agree that Mackie was one of the worst writers. But we also have him PPSM run later which is great. So his Byrne/Mackie issues are bad, but more from him trying to do too much.

Plus the reveal of the GG5 was taken out of Mackie's (or was it Defalco's?) hands because it was originally intended to be Phil Urich, but editorial made him/them change that, so they were stuck with a mystery character that they didn't know who they really were.
Marvel took Spider-Man grim and gritty BECAUSE they were sabotaging him in preperation for Ben Reilly and DeMatteis was an architect of that.

I wasn't talking of JMD's overall work but his ASM run specifically which had 2 highlights. ASM #400 and Web of Death and nothing else.

I don't disagree with Mackie's problems but it doesn't change the fact that the work on the page was ultimately way worse than the worst stuff you could accuse Michelinie of.

And again I was restrcting things to ASm runs only not everything.

They didn't HAVE to reveal GGV as a clone of nobody who melts though I blame that on Byrne. He loathes the Goblin and it seems like something he'd do because Byrne is a shithead
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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by Antiyonder » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:37 pm

Yeah I still don't get why they couldn't let the GGV be solved earlier when at that point the reboot must have been planned.
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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by hornacek » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:53 pm

WolfCypher wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:45 pm
hornacek wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:29 pm
I think I commented this in the YouTube comments when this was recorded, but when Brad was asking callers (and the panel) what Slott's best story was, some people said Superior, but I'm surprised no one specifically said "Dying Wish" aka ASM #698, the issue that reads as Peter Parker but you find out at the end that he was Doc Ock the entire time. When the panel reviewed this issue, I think the lowest grade was A, with some giving it an A+. Still a great issue.
I remember loving the first part of that story, where we discover the "twist" at the end, but the overall arc was a letdown for me. He wrote part 1 with such nuance, then Slotted it all up with the concluding issues.
From what I remember, the panel gave A/A+ to ASM #698, but they weren't as high on #699, which was mostly a recap of what we had already seen but from Peter's perspective. I think they gave #700 mostly B's but they agreed that #698 was the best part of that arc.
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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by hornacek » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:03 pm

Big Al wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:05 pm
hornacek wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:26 pm
I don't blame DeMatteis for that. That was more of the direction Marvel was taking the character - dark, gritty. And I can't remember if they had decided at that point or not to bring back Ben Reilly as the fun Spider-Man, so they were doing everything they could to make Peter seem more serious and downbeat. Dematteis had many more high points and successes to let this one thing bring down his average.

Mackie's problem during this run (and I think he admitted it himself in an interview on this podcast) is that he was burned out writing ASM and PPSM every month. If all we had was his ASM run then I'd agree that Mackie was one of the worst writers. But we also have him PPSM run later which is great. So his Byrne/Mackie issues are bad, but more from him trying to do too much.

Plus the reveal of the GG5 was taken out of Mackie's (or was it Defalco's?) hands because it was originally intended to be Phil Urich, but editorial made him/them change that, so they were stuck with a mystery character that they didn't know who they really were.
Marvel took Spider-Man grim and gritty BECAUSE they were sabotaging him in preperation for Ben Reilly and DeMatteis was an architect of that.

I wasn't talking of JMD's overall work but his ASM run specifically which had 2 highlights. ASM #400 and Web of Death and nothing else.

I don't disagree with Mackie's problems but it doesn't change the fact that the work on the page was ultimately way worse than the worst stuff you could accuse Michelinie of.

And again I was restrcting things to ASm runs only not everything.

They didn't HAVE to reveal GGV as a clone of nobody who melts though I blame that on Byrne. He loathes the Goblin and it seems like something he'd do because Byrne is a shithead
That wasn't DeMatteis' fault alone. You're acting like he was the one that made the decision to make Peter grim and gritty. That was a decision by the higher-ups at Marvel. Yes, we've heard the stories of the Spidey summit where they came up with the idea of bring back the clone, and how all the writers were excited, but DeMatteis was just one of many. He was writing some of the stories, but he wasn't driving the bus.

DeMatteis had much more greatness in his ASM run than just ASM #400 and Web of Death - I think you're selling his run short.

At least Mackie's ASM run was bad enough to get me feeling upset about the issues. After awhile, I just became numb to the Micheline run. I've often compared his run to "a popcorn movie" - something you go to see, have fun watching it, but the next day it didn't make an impact and it's gone from your mind. Mackie's PPSSM run definitely raises his standings above Micheline.

Again, the plan when GG5 was created was to make him Phil Urich. But after he had made some appearances, it was decided it would not be Phil. So they were stuck with a mystery character who had to have a different secret identity, had to struggle to come up with an answer, and for whatever reasons, there was no existing character to use that would make sense. The "clone of no one" was a terrible answer, but maybe it was better than using an existing character that could have infuriated the readers (i.e. making Ned Leeds or Flash Thompson be the Hobgoblin).

And I can't hate Byrne because of his X-Men run with Claremeont, and his FF run is the gold standard for that book. He's a great writer, just not for Spider-Man (like Denny O'Neil).
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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by Cheesedique » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:48 pm

hornacek wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:03 pm
Big Al wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:05 pm
hornacek wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:26 pm
I don't blame DeMatteis for that. That was more of the direction Marvel was taking the character - dark, gritty. And I can't remember if they had decided at that point or not to bring back Ben Reilly as the fun Spider-Man, so they were doing everything they could to make Peter seem more serious and downbeat. Dematteis had many more high points and successes to let this one thing bring down his average.

Mackie's problem during this run (and I think he admitted it himself in an interview on this podcast) is that he was burned out writing ASM and PPSM every month. If all we had was his ASM run then I'd agree that Mackie was one of the worst writers. But we also have him PPSM run later which is great. So his Byrne/Mackie issues are bad, but more from him trying to do too much.

Plus the reveal of the GG5 was taken out of Mackie's (or was it Defalco's?) hands because it was originally intended to be Phil Urich, but editorial made him/them change that, so they were stuck with a mystery character that they didn't know who they really were.
Marvel took Spider-Man grim and gritty BECAUSE they were sabotaging him in preperation for Ben Reilly and DeMatteis was an architect of that.

I wasn't talking of JMD's overall work but his ASM run specifically which had 2 highlights. ASM #400 and Web of Death and nothing else.

I don't disagree with Mackie's problems but it doesn't change the fact that the work on the page was ultimately way worse than the worst stuff you could accuse Michelinie of.

And again I was restrcting things to ASm runs only not everything.

They didn't HAVE to reveal GGV as a clone of nobody who melts though I blame that on Byrne. He loathes the Goblin and it seems like something he'd do because Byrne is a shithead
That wasn't DeMatteis' fault alone. You're acting like he was the one that made the decision to make Peter grim and gritty. That was a decision by the higher-ups at Marvel. Yes, we've heard the stories of the Spidey summit where they came up with the idea of bring back the clone, and how all the writers were excited, but DeMatteis was just one of many. He was writing some of the stories, but he wasn't driving the bus.

DeMatteis had much more greatness in his ASM run than just ASM #400 and Web of Death - I think you're selling his run short.

At least Mackie's ASM run was bad enough to get me feeling upset about the issues. After awhile, I just became numb to the Micheline run. I've often compared his run to "a popcorn movie" - something you go to see, have fun watching it, but the next day it didn't make an impact and it's gone from your mind. Mackie's PPSSM run definitely raises his standings above Micheline.

Again, the plan when GG5 was created was to make him Phil Urich. But after he had made some appearances, it was decided it would not be Phil. So they were stuck with a mystery character who had to have a different secret identity, had to struggle to come up with an answer, and for whatever reasons, there was no existing character to use that would make sense. The "clone of no one" was a terrible answer, but maybe it was better than using an existing character that could have infuriated the readers (i.e. making Ned Leeds or Flash Thompson be the Hobgoblin).

And I can't hate Byrne because of his X-Men run with Claremeont, and his FF run is the gold standard for that book. He's a great writer, just not for Spider-Man (like Denny O'Neil).
No way Mackie is better than Michelinie. DM created Venom and Carnage, and often wrote the marriage well. Mackie didn’t create anybody long-lasting, his ASM run was awful, and the mixed PP:SM of his doesn’t make up for that by a long shot. This is just my opinion, though.
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Re: Podcast # 490 Slott Exit, What Did You think?

Post by Spider-Dad » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:28 pm

From the beginning intro song, ("Happy Days Are Here Again...") to the very end, this was a very enjoyable podcast!

I liked JR's take on Slott leaving the book. There is not any true joy on someone leaving when you are unsure how Marvel is moving forward. Many of the Spider-Man "resets" have not been well received by this reader. However, when you have a writer who has been so hostile to the marriage/MJ, dismissive of fans and taking Peter further from his core character than any other writer, I am hopeful things can only get better.

Slott does not fall in plus territory, (along with all the BND writers) but not the bottom two.
Gerry Conway, Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Tom DeFalco and JMS all in plus territory.

Favorite two writers: Stan Lee and Roger Stern.
Least Favorite writers: Howard Mackie and Denny O'Neil.

As one of the callers asked, "how can you keep reading it?" I didn't. I became more of a collector. For the past 190 or so issues, I would wait until ASM would drop into bargain bins and pick them up in batches with a nice discount. I took those savings and put them in older ASM or X-Men books. I think issue #700 was the last one I felt compelled enough to comment.

JR is not cynical. Spider-Man's best days are probably behind him. Marvel is treating Spider-Man more as a brand, not a character. However, we can hope that a new writer will get ASM out of being less of a cheesy Saturday Cartoon the book became.
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