Friendly Fire Fight Club #218 - 'WETWAR!'

[George Berryman]

"Make way and hide your daughters... Shang Chi is in the hizzouse, bitches!"

"Every now and we're treated to a real powerhouse clash between Fight Club titans. Tonight is one of those nights. Our top two current Fight Clubbers this season - both proven and capable opponents - now face off in the most brutal of combats... fighting vicariously through fictional characters. Tremble, mortals."

"Thrawn threw the challenge at CrazyChris, who has been like a rocket made of win this season. CrazyChris accepted and declared a Venomaniac Corollary match, spending one of his two this season. CrazyChris declared an 'UNDERWATER BATTLE!'"



"And as his champion this seasoned vet chose the King of the Undertow and current DC flavor du jour... AQUAMAN!"



"In response, Thrawn - ever a dangerous opponent - went way outside the box while adhering to the VC match's parameters... and picked the unstoppable JUGGERNAUT!"



"That's about a half-ton of Fight Club curveball and Shang Chi LIKES IT! So with our combatants set to take the field, the Commissioner informs me that he is sending these two out to the home of Mighty Cthulhu... R'LYEH, below the waves in Cthulhu's sunken city-tomb!"



"Surely these two titans should be able to take one another on while also contending with the most feared Great Old One of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos! Don't let the art fool you, either. This battle will take place on the sea floor in the Sunken City of R'lyeh before it briefly rose in The Call of Cthulhu."

"Those, then, are your choices... a King of the Seas and a King of Pain. Who walks away in glory? Who crawls away in defeat? DECIDE NOW!"

"For Commissioner George Berryman and everyone at Friendly Fire Fight Club, this is the Master of Kung Fu bringing the sexy back!"

[CrazyChris]

Juggernaut just isn’t quite it. Aquaman has the means to take Juggernaut down, the advanced tactical mind to put his strategy into action, and, most importantly, a massive terrain advantage.

I’ll start with Aquaman’s terrain advantage because that is the most important factor in this fight. Aquaman and Juggernaut are fighting in a realm where Aquaman is the absolute master and Juggernaut is an unwelcome visiter. Aquaman is a master fighter, and underwater he is the best fighter to have ever lived. Juggernaut is pretty much just a slugger. He gets by on brute power but he isn’t known for being a master of martial technique.

Abilities
Master Swimmer: Aquaman is a master swimmer. Perhaps the greatest there is.
Expert Combatant: Aquaman excels at hand-to-hand combat and overall martial ability.
Expert Tactician: He has an advanced strategic sense, and has natural leadership qualities.

even managed to hold out for an incredible length of time against Wonder Woman in combat.

(Wonder Woman being possibly the best hand-to-hand fighter in comics. Thrawn himself once argued that she would beat Black Adam in a fight).

Juggernaut’s wiki just says he’s good with street fighting techniques. This fight isn’t happening on the street!

Juggernaut isn’t much of a swimmer. My research has revealed that he can float in water using his forcefield, but that’s no substitute for the master swimming ability Aquaman has. Every time I have seen Juggernaut underwater, he just walks across the floor of the seabed. In fact, I don’t see why swimming would even be physically possible for someone whose body isn’t affected by water resistance. Whatever mobility Juggernaut can get through floating, he’s going to be exceedingly clumsy compared to Aquaman. In order to use his powers, or change directions once he starts moving, Juggernaut needs a surface from which to gain momentum, which means he’ll need to be in constant contact with the ruins. Aquaman, on the other hand, has three dimensions of free movement at all times. He can remain forever out of Juggernaut’s reach.

And even if Juggernaut can somehow swim, he certainly can’t do it as skillfully as Aquaman. There’s no way!

Then there's the matter of Cthulhu. That's a wildcard but something tells me Aquaman is going to have a much easier time contending with an aberrant octopus-like doom god from beneath the sea than Juggernaut is. Not only is Aquaman used to dealing with unholy beasts from the briny depths, but he also has the powerful telepathy needed to resist the mental assault that Cthulhu brings to the table. If Juggernaut loses his helmet in the course of this battle (more on that below), then he's going to turn into a gibbering fool within seconds.

Aquaman’s has a huge mobility advantage. Aquaman can swim much, much faster than Juggernaut can run. Juggernaut’s running speed is around 111 MPH, according to his wiki. Aquaman’s casual swimming speed is 100 MPH, but he can go 1000 knots (about 1150 MPH) if he has to. So Aquaman is moving about 1000 MPH faster than Juggernaut in this fight, with more planes of movement. There’s no way Juggernaut could even keep up with Aquaman in order to hit him. And because the only thing Juggernaut has in this fight is that he could hit Aquaman really hard, that’s a problem for Jugs.

Superhuman Speed: Aquaman's regular speed is approximately 100mph swimming underwater, although slightly less on the surface.[119][120] In times of distress this has shown to drastically increase, and he has reached 1,000 knots.[121]

And Aquaman is no slouch when it comes to strength, himself. Underwater, Aquaman can lift over 10,000 tons. He’s lifted an entire city block and an oil rig platform before. Aquaman isn’t a weakling relying only on his superior skill and speed, here.

His strength would appear somewhat dependent on how hydrated he is as he was capable of lifting a considerable chunk of a city block in Sub-Diego, and has proven capable of shifting an oil rig platform which would weigh thousands of tons as well.

While hydrated sufficiently, Aquaman has twice proven capable of lifting weights in excess of 10,000 tons.

Juggernaut’s weaknesses are well known and documented, and Aquaman can target every one of them. First of all, Juggernaut can be harmed by powerful magic weapons.

The only known examples of him being stopped involve physical force with mystical involvement, which is Juggernaut's sole weakness. Thor unleashing his power was able to stop him in his tracks but his powers are mystical in origin, It should also be noted that Thor was severely hampered at the time as he was extremely weakened by an extra dimensional malady. During a battle with "War Hulk", the mutant Apocalypse, increased the Hulk's strength and power enormously by grafting Celestial tech to him which again involved mysticism.

Aquaman has the Trident of Poseidan, which is exactly what it sounds like. It is a divine artifact, forged by the Greek God of the Seas himself. It can control water, cause Earthquakes, and fire powerful bolts of lightening. It cannot be broken, either. Basically, it’s like Thor’s Mjolnir, only specifically suited for underwater combat. Juggernaut’s helmet has been removed by X-Men like Angel before. If that’s enough, then an unbreakable weapon of the Gods in the hands of a master warrior strong enough to lift a city block can do it, too.

The Trident of Poseidon is an unbreakable three-pronged leister that serves as an extension of the God's own power. It can be used for base offensive purpose, but can also be used for a variety of mystical effects, such as cleaving a spatial aperture in the middle of the ocean. The trident is capable of controlling any body of water, creating water elementals, speed ships and other water vehicles with water, create fogs and storms of high intensity, summon waves of water to propel him at great speeds, and create earthquakes by increasing water pressure. It can manipulate and conjure water, as well as disperse energy in the form of bolts and forcefields.

That brings us to Juggernaut’s second well-known weakness: telepathy. Aquaman is an insanely powerful telepath, and that power isn’t just used for talking to fish:

Marine Telepathy: Aquaman has the ability to communicate directly with sea life and has done so throughout most of his life. Lately he possesses a greater range of control that can actually force sea creatures to obey his whims. Currently, he requests their assistance and they comply. He has chosen to continue to request since, if he forces them to comply, they will ultimately lose respect for him. He now also has access to a quantum field phenomenon called "the Clear". "The Clear" quantum phenomenon has been observed with the subject called the Swamp Thing who called it the Green or the Morphogenic Field of Animal Man (also called the Red). Aquaman is also an accomplished telepath in general and can perform such telepathic feats as mind to mind communication, mind probes, mental domination of a non-aquatic mind, and mental attacks. The potency of such mental domination is unclear but he has been seen to use his powers to great effect against the White Martians and Doctor Polaris.
Access to the Clear: Aquaman has the ability to sense the primal emotions of aquatic creatures through "The Clear". The Clear seems to function as a universal consciousness of all sea life. Via it he can communicate or command sea life on the other side of the planet. He can see what they see and much more what he is only beginning to realize. He can also push his telepathic powers to reach out to the higher land creatures to find that element of their brains that was once an aquatic dwelling creature. This may account for Aquaman's facility with language.

[/quote][/quote]

Reaching across the planet? Damn, that’s some Professor X hooked up to Cerebro level power! Aquaman can probe, control and attack the minds of sentient non-aquatic creatures like humans. Using telepathy against White Martians is particularly impressive because they have potent telepathic powers of their own. Juggernaut will certainly be vulnerable to a telepathic mind-control assault because that tactic has worked many times in the past. Once Aquaman gets Juggernaut’s helmet off, this fight is OVER. And Aquaman will know that’s what he has to do, too. Once Aquaman realizes he can’t tap into Juggernaut’s brain, the fact that his telepathy is being blocked by the hunk of metal around Juggernaut’s head is the logical conclusion. Aquaman is a master tactician; he’ll know what needs to be done. This isn't even taking into account the mental attacks that come from Cthulhu. That's a whole other disadvantage for Jugs.

Third, Juggernaut has a well-known problem in that his powers don’t work if he’s immobilized. Any Spidey fan knows Juggernaut's powers are worthless if he's surrounded by a substance that keeps him from building up momentum. Spider-Man contained him by putting him in cement. Although Juggernaut eventually broke free after the cement dried, that would have counted as a win under the fight club rules where all you need to do to win is put the other guy down for the time being. Aquaman doesn’t have cement, but he has other abilities at his disposal that have the same effect. For one, he can use his trident to drastically increase the water pressure. Water pressure can crush a normal human into a paste, so it is much more constraining on momentum than simple cement would be.

Or Aquaman could lead Jugs onto the seabed and use his water control power to create quicksand (http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... ksand1.htm). Quicksand would be especially effective against Juggernaut because it has the same consistency as wet cement and you sink into it more the harder you fight.

That’s just a few tactics that came to my mind, and I’m not even a tactical genius like Aquaman. Whatever Aquaman could come up with, it would be even more effective than my ideas. I’m just showing that Aquaman has many of possible strategies to work with. Rather than being an unbeatable opponent, Juggernaut is just going to be a mild puzzle for Aquaman to solve. And since Aquaman is a tactical genius fighting under optimal conditions, it’s only a matter of time before he solves this. Aquaman wins this fight after a medium amount of time without too much frustration.

[Thrawn]

I believe that Juggernaut takes Aquaman in this fight. Not quickly, but ultimately without a doubt.

First of all, this fight takes place underwater. That doesn't matter to Juggernaut. The Juggernaut doesn't have to breathe.

Self Sustenance: The Juggernaut is completely self sustained, he has no need to breathe, eat, or drink. He cannot tire, hence he cannot sleep, however his self generating mystical energies provides him with the nourishment of sleep, nutrition, hydration, and oxygen. He is sustained by his mystical energies alone.

Jugs has spent time in outer space and has fought people there and in other dimensions. The underwater environment doesn't matter as far as Jugs is concerned. He's fought in lava, water and the vacuum of outer space all without them hampering his ability to move or fight in the least.

You see, what some of you may or may not know is Jugs is covered in a force field:

The Juggernaut is capable of generating a personal force field around himself, extending to about 1 foot in diameter from his body. He uses this force field for many purposes, such as preventing physical contact, keeping debris and unwanted materials off himself, erecting his force field to escape piles of debris easier, and a few other purposes as well. However its most important purpose is the fact that if he is cast in concrete or other materials, for example a plane dropping a large amount of solidifying material that can put his body in a hard cast, or falling into wet concrete that would harden around him in a full body cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast. Hence without this force field he would not be unstoppable.

Pay attention to this part here:

The force field is also particularly resistant to such materials in the first place, as they would slide off much faster and more smoothly then from his body alone due to the fact it is pure energy.

In other words, stuff just slides off Juggernaut. That would mean that when he's underwater and has his shield up he can move pretty much unimpeded while underwater. Otherwise he wouldn't be the unstoppable Juggernaut, would he?

So Jugs will be on the ocean floor doing his thing. You know what Jugs can do to the underwater environment? This:



Do you know how bad underwater earthquakes are? They're very bad. Fissures open up in the ocean floor causing massive suction and if you're very unlucky it releases underwater lava flows.

The other reason Juggernaut wins this fight? It's impossible for Aquaman to hurt or physically affect the Juggernaut in any way shape or form:

Cain is completely invulnerable to all forms of physical injury. The Juggernaut's skin cannot be broken, and he is incapable of feeling pain, or sustaining any form of injury from any purely physical attack regardless of magnitude or intensity.

See that? Based on that power alone the outcome of this match is decided before it even begins.




The only thing that can even begin to hurt the Juggernaut is powerful magic or mystic forces:

Although Cain is able to be harmed by exceedingly high levels of mental attack, mystical attacks or weapons with mystical properties can hurt Cain, only because they counteract, in some way alter, or reduce the mystical energies that make Cain invulnerable, however, these attacks have rarely been shown to cause any permanent damage.

Aquaman does have some telepathy (Why Aquaman has that I have no idea):

Aquaman is also an accomplished telepath in general and can perform such telepathic feats as mind to mind communication, mind probes, mental domination of a non-aquatic mind, and mental attacks. The potency of such mental domination is unclear but he has been seen to use his powers to great effect against the White Martians and Doctor Polaris.[citation needed]

However it takes exceedingly high levels of mental attacks, and I'll reiterate exceedingly high levels, but we're talking Jean Grey, Professor X, or Emma Frost level attacks.

Aquaman would not in their league when it comes to telepathic attacks on a non-aquatic lifeform.

Of course for any of that to do him any good he'd have to remove Juggernaut's helmet - by himself. As we all know Juggernaut's helmet protects him from mental attacks and it takes teams of heroes to fight the Juggernaut and to remove his helmet. Aquaman is on his own here, and I don't see that happening.

Here's what Juggernaut does to teams of heroes who are familiar with him:




And once again his force field also offers protection from Aquaman's attacks:

His force-field makes him invulnerable to all kind of attacks . Its also showed the ability to hurl back objects and people and the ability to absorb inertia , literally "killing the momentum" . For example , when Thor threw his hammer Mjolnir at the Juggernaut , the force-field was already affecting the hammer and was slowing it down , absorbing all the inertia from it . Another example of this ability was shown when Beast launched the 10 ton steel barrel at the Juggernaut . The force-field stopped it and then hurled back .

Aquaman is super strong underwater, but it's completely irrelevant to Juggernaut. Jugs has unlimited strength and can increase his strength to whatever levels he desires:

With it he has immense strength that far exceeds the ability to lift 100 tons effortlessly. Similarly, due to the mystical nature of his powers granted by an external source of limitless magic as the Gem of Cyttorak, Juggernaut can increase his physical strength to immeasurable levels with a simple thought when he needs it. In this sense, Juggernaut has virtually limitless superhuman strength and his most notable feature of his display of physical power is his unstoppable forward momentum.

So there you have it. Juggernaut can fight underwater without much difficulty, he's invulnerable to all of Aquaman's attacks, and he's as strong as he needs to be.

I don't see how he loses to Aquaman in this match.

[CrazyChris]

Thrawn wrote:

First of all, this fight takes place underwater. That doesn't matter to Juggernaut. The Juggernaut doesn't have to breathe.

I agree that the water doesn't really change Juggernaut's tactics. What it does is help Aquaman tremendously because this is his realm, his element, his domain. Aquaman has a massive advantage over non-aquatic opponents when he's fighting on the ocean floor.

Do you know how bad underwater earthquakes are? They're very bad. Fissures open up in the ocean floor causing massive suction and if you're very unlucky it releases underwater lava flows.

Aquaman can will earthquakes to occur with his trident. And water suction? That is not even going to begin to bother Aquaman. Even if Aquaman couldn't control water at will (which he can), he's still perfectly adapted to withstand any elemental hazard that the ocean can throw at him.

The only thing that can even begin to hurt the Juggernaut is powerful magic or mystic forces

Like the Trident of Poseidan, maybe? A weapon of the gods does seem to fit the ticket of "magic or mystic forces." And Aquaman doesn't need to hurt Juggernaut to win this. All Aquaman has to do is get Jugs' helmet off temporarily in order to make Jugs vulnerable to telepathy.

However it takes exceedingly high levels of mental attacks, and I'll reiterate exceedingly high levels, but we're talking Jean Grey, Professor X, or Emma Frost level attacks.

Aquaman would not in their league when it comes to telepathic attacks on a non-aquatic lifeform.

Aquaman has been able to telepathically assault powerful psychic lifeforms and his range is planetary. That's definitely exceedingly powerful telepathy. And if anyone doubts that's powerful enough, no one can doubt the power of Cthulhu's mental attacks. Cthulhu drove people insane from around the world. He'll make mincemeat out of Juggernaut's brain.

Of course for any of that to do him any good he'd have to remove Juggernaut's helmet - by himself. As we all know Juggernaut's helmet protects him from mental attacks and it takes teams of heroes to fight the Juggernaut and to remove his helmet. Aquaman is on his own here, and I don't see that happening.

It takes a team of puny X-Men to beat Juggernaut! You know what the X-Men and Juggernaut have in common? They've both been beaten by Spider-Man acting alone! You know who's more powerful and more formidable a fighter than all the X-Men and Spider-Man combined, especially when fighting underwater? AQUAMAN! Seriously, not one of the X-Men is even close to as powerful as Aquaman is underwater. The comparison is silly.

Aquaman is super strong underwater, but it's completely irrelevant to Juggernaut. Jugs has unlimited strength and can increase his strength to whatever levels he desires

If Aquaman was stupid enough to let this be a straight punch-out, then that might matter. But Aquaman is more resourceful than that, and he is practically a god in this terrain. Juggernaut would win this fight on land but right now he's on Aquaman's turf.

[CrazyChris]

And once again his force field also offers protection from Aquaman's attacks

Aquaman can also generate forcefields with his trident. But anyway, Juggernaut's forcefield only extends a foot from his body and won't help him if Aquaman uses some equivalent of cement on him as I described above. Yeah, it can push away solid objects but fluids like quicksand or pressurized water would just envelope the forcefield along with him. Juggernaut can be defeated by thick fluids because they prevent him from building momentum and there's plenty of that for Aquaman to conjure up.

[Thrawn]

Juggernaut is pretty much just a slugger. He gets by on brute power but he isn’t known for being a master of martial technique.

Juggernaut relies on brute strength, however he does have some military training and hand to hand combat knowledge.

even managed to hold out for an incredible length of time against Wonder Woman in combat.

And that' impressive. However holding your own basically equates to staving off an inevitable defeat.

My research has revealed that he can float in water using his forcefield, but that’s no substitute for the master swimming ability Aquaman has.

I'm thinking sink like a stone and stay on the bottom of the arena.

That's a wildcard but something tells me Aquaman is going to have a much easier time contending with an aberrant octopus-like doom god from beneath the sea than Juggernaut is.

I think it's the other way around. Aquaman is really a magic user. Juggernaut has fought Nightmare and slugged it out with Dr. Strange.



Also when it comes to dealing with mystical attacks only one character here as a force field that can block them...and that's Jugs:

Also his force field can resist mystical attacks better then the Juggernaut could do alone, as it is energy created from his actual power. Mystical weapons that can hurt Cain have to penetrate his force field first making it even more useful, not to mention the force field being able to produce more energy to continually push out an intruder that has managed to break into his defences.

That's helps against not only Aquaman and his pigsticker, but Cthulhu as well.

If Juggernaut loses his helmet in the course of this battle (more on that below), then he's going to turn into a gibbering fool within seconds.

Not particularly. Aquaman's telepathy is specifically aimed at aquatic life. He has been shown to be able to affect certain other beings but it's less effective than on aquatic life. Jugs can only be hurt by exceedingly powerful telepathic attacks.

Aquaman can lift over 10,000 tons. He’s lifted an entire city block and an oil rig platform before.

I know. Jugs has unlimited strength and is completely invulnerable to all 10,000 tons of that aquatic strength.

Basically, it’s like Thor’s Mjolnir, only specifically suited for underwater combat. Juggernaut’s helmet has been removed by X-Men like Angel before. If that’s enough, then an unbreakable weapon of the Gods in the hands of a master warrior strong enough to lift a city block can do it, too.

That's good since Juggernaut has handed Thor a beating before. There's no way the Trident of Poseiden is more powerful than Mjolnir and Juggernaut has done fine in the past against it's attacks.

The potency of such mental domination is unclear but he has been seen to use his powers to great effect against the White Martians and Doctor Polaris.

White Martians and Doctor Polaris are not the Juggernaut. Every non-psychic character in comics is weak to physic attacks from Wolverine, Batman, to Spider-Man. The difference is Juggernaut's helmet blocks all those attacks, and even without the helmet he's resistant to all but the strongest attacks due to his mystical nature.

Aquaman is going to have a near impossible time removing Jugs helmet without getting hit by Juggernaut or an angry Cthulhu.

Spider-Man contained him by putting him in cement.

Which he technically shouldn't have been able to do either:

However its most important purpose is the fact that if he is cast in concrete or other materials, for example a plane dropping a large amount of solidifying material that can put his body in a hard cast, or falling into wet concrete that would harden around him in a full body cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast. Hence without this force field he would not be unstoppable.

As for this:

Or Aquaman could lead Jugs onto the seabed and use his water control power to create quicksand (http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... ksand1.htm). Quicksand would be especially effective against Juggernaut because it has the same consistency as wet cement and you sink into it more the harder you fight.

Force field and then swim out of it. Jugs breaking out of a mountain:

What it does is help Aquaman tremendously because this is his realm, his element, his domain.

It helps Aquaman, this it true. What doesn't is that Juggs still does what he does. And that's give out beat downs.

Cthulhu drove people insane from around the world. He'll make mincemeat out of Juggernaut's brain.

I think you may be misinterpreting what Cthulhu would do. He'd target Aquaman first and use Juggernaut due to Jug's innate evil and the fact that he's an avatar for an evil god.

I don't think Cthulhu is a problem for Jugs.

It takes a team of puny X-Men to beat Juggernaut! The comparison is silly.

It's not silly when you consider the fact that on land some of those X-Men are more powerful than Aquaman is on land. Juggernaut takes teams of them. Colossus' base strength is higher than Aquaman's whose is not even in Superman or Wonder Woman's league.

In the water the Aquaman is way stronger, but it's completely useless to him since Juggernaut is immune to all his strength based attacks.

Swimming around very fast will not help Aquaman win this fight.

His only chance is to pry Juggernaut's helmet off, and that can only be done up close. He won't be able to use his trident for that.

Aquaman has to come to Juggernaut no matter how you look his tactical options. And when he does, it's over for him.

Jugs has taken on Thor armed with Mjolnir and handed out a beating. Aquaman is not as formidable as Thor.

he is practically a god in this terrain.

Juggernaut is a god no matter what terrain. Earth, outer space, other dimensions, it doesn't matter. Juggernaut has fought and defeated opponents in all of them.

Juggernaut would win this fight on land but right now he's on Aquaman's turf.

And yet...Juggernaut doesn't even have to change his tactics. Aquaman has more options on mobility, but that's it. He still has to come to Juggernaut in order to win and that means he's giving up the advantage. When he does that he's already lost.

Yeah, it can push away solid objects but fluids like quicksand or pressurized water would just envelope the forcefield along with him.

Like the crushing vacuum of space? Juggernaut has been shown to move just fine on Earth's moon which has no atmosphere. I think he can handle pressurized water.

Juggernaut can be defeated by thick fluids because they prevent him from building momentum and there's plenty of that for Aquaman to conjure up.

Not if he's already moving he can't be stopped by any fluids. Juggernaut will be moving in this fight.

You see, we keep talking about Aquaman's intelligence, but Juggernaut isn't stupid. He knows how to use his powers quite effectively and he knows what his own weaknesses are. Aquaman won't know that.

CrazyChris may know that Aquaman has to stop the Juggernaut from moving, but Aquaman won't know that. He's never encountered the Juggernaut before.

[Thrawn]

Yeah, it can push away solid objects but fluids like quicksand or pressurized water would just envelope the forcefield along with him. Juggernaut can be defeated by thick fluids because they prevent him from building momentum and there's plenty of that for Aquaman to conjure up.

Nope. See this:

However its most important purpose is the fact that if he is cast in concrete or other materials, for example a plane dropping a large amount of solidifying material that can put his body in a hard cast, or falling into wet concrete that would harden around him in a full body cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast.

Cement would be harder than pressurized water as is the cold vacuum of space.

I also don't think Aquaman will be creating too much quicksand on the paved roads of the sunken city. I'd be curious to know if the Trident of Posieden has any restrictions in the magical sunken city of one of the Great Old Ones.

I have this entire H.P. Lovecraft musical on cd.



"Terrify the tourists! Blub blub blub blub blub blub blub blub!"



Why yes, I do like and know a bit about Lovecraft. Why do you ask?




The terrain being water-based favors Aquaman initially, but the sunken city actually favors Juggernaut in my opinion due to his magical nature and shields.


Alright Chris. It's about time for me to call it quits. It was a long day today. I'll be up for a few more minutes and then in the morning. I have to say so far I'm enjoying this.

[CrazyChris]

Juggernaut relies on brute strength, however he does have some military training and hand to hand combat knowledge.

That puts him several leagues below Aquaman's fighting ability when it comes to fighting underwater.

And that' impressive. However holding your own basically equates to staving off an inevitable defeat.

If Aquaman can fight Wonder Woman, who is a million times more skilled than Juggernaut, for an extended period of time, then he can fight Juggernaut for long enough to get that Helmet off of him.

I'm thinking sink like a stone and stay on the bottom of the arena.

I hope he's cozy down there. Meanwhile, Aquaman is using the full arena to his advantage.

I think it's the other way around. Aquaman is really a magic user. Juggernaut has fought Nightmare and slugged it out with Dr. Strange.

Cthulhu is specifically a water-based monster. Saying Juggernaut would contend with that better than Aquaman is laughable.

Not particularly. Aquaman's telepathy is specifically aimed at aquatic life. He has been shown to be able to affect certain other beings but it's less effective than on aquatic life. Jugs can only be hurt by exceedingly powerful telepathic attacks.

Aquaman is able to reach out to the part of the human brain that evolved from sea creatures, according to the wiki. Again, Aquaman could control White Martians who have the same telepathic powers as Martian Manhunter, and they didn't even evolve from Earth's sea animals. Juggernaut is an Earth human, who is right next to Aquaman, while Aquaman is immersed in water and at his most powerful.

That's good since Juggernaut has handed Thor a beating before. There's no way the Trident of Poseiden is more powerful than Mjolnir and Juggernaut has done fine in the past against it's attacks.

From Juggernaut's wiki:

Thor unleashing his power was able to stop him in his tracks but his powers are mystical in origin, It should also be noted that Thor was severely hampered at the time as he was extremely weakened by an extra dimensional malady.

So Thor in a weakened state can stop Jugs. Aquaman is at his strongest and using a weapon forged by Poseidan, which can control vast mystical forces and dominate the very substance of which this arena is composed.

Which he technically shouldn't have been able to do either...

...Force field and then swim out of it. Jugs breaking out of a mountain:

The forcefield trick only seems to work on solid material, like dried cement or a mountain. If Aquaman gets him caught in mile-deep quicksand, all Juggernaut can do with his forcefield is create a bubble for the goop to fit around, while the whole Juggernaut, forcefield and all, gets pulled down further.

I think you may be misinterpreting what Cthulhu would do. He'd target Aquaman first and use Juggernaut due to Jug's innate evil and the fact that he's an avatar for an evil god.

Now that's some attenuated logic. Evil gods see other evil gods as rivals and threats. If anything, Cthulhu would see Juggernaut as more direct competition and go for him first. Though, really, I don't see Cthulhu discriminating that much. He'll probably go after both of them and get Juggernaut first because telepathy and sea monsters aren't his forte, but they are Aquaman's.

It's not silly when you consider the fact that on land some of those X-Men are more powerful than Aquaman is on land.

None of them are as formidable as Aquaman is in water, though. And I am not just talking about strength.

His only chance is to pry Juggernaut's helmet off, and that can only be done up close. He won't be able to use his trident for that.

Aquaman has to come to Juggernaut no matter how you look his tactical options. And when he does, it's over for him.

He'll outmaneuver Juggernaut and get close at the precisely perfect tactical opportunity. This is a very complicated, labyrinthine arena with non-euclidian geometry. Juggernaut will just be smashing through everything and getting lost while Aquaman uses the innate senses he has underwater to make sure he stays in the perfect position. Aquaman can see through the eyes of every sea creature in the area, so he has scouts everywhere and will never lose track off Juggernaut. Juggernaut will quickly lose track of Aquaman, though. Since Aquaman is 1000 MPH faster than Juggernaut, he can rush up behind Jugs while has his guard is down. Juggernaut does not keep his forcefield up at all times. Eventually there will be an opportunity and Aquaman will be able to strike. Once the helmet is off, Juggernaut is in for a telepathic blitz coming from both Aquaman and Cthulhu.

Like the crushing vacuum of space? Juggernaut has been shown to move just fine on Earth's moon which has no atmosphere. I think he can handle pressurized water.

Crushing vacuum? Vacuum is the absence of pressure. Tens of thousands of tons worth of water pressing inward is the opposite of that.

Not if he's already moving he can't be stopped by any fluids. Juggernaut will be moving in this fight.

How does he start moving in the first place? Are you just assuming Juggernaut is already running at the time he's placed in the arena? And even if he is, that means he can't stop moving in this fight for even a second because if he does there's all kinds of things Aquaman can do to keep him from moving again, which I've already mentioned. That makes him an even clumsier opponent than I was originally thinking!

CrazyChris may know that Aquaman has to stop the Juggernaut from moving, but Aquaman won't know that. He's never encountered the Juggernaut before.

It isn't exactly rocket science to figure out what Juggernaut's gimmick is. Aquaman won't know it off the bat, but he'll quickly realize he should avoid taking Juggernaut head on and instead spend some time outmaneuvering Juggernaut and observing him. Aquaman could even just find a secure spot and observe Juggernaut from a distance, seeing through the eyes of the fish. This fight doesn't have to be over any time quickly. Aquaman controls the terrain and thus he sets the pace for this fight.

Nope. See this

The power description you posted only works on hardening materials after they've solidified. Juggernaut was powerless to escape wet cement when Spider-Man used it against him.

I also don't think Aquaman will be creating too much quicksand on the paved roads of the sunken city.

The city is surrounded by a seabed that Aquaman can lure Juggernaut onto. Or Aquaman could just tear the roads off using his strength. Juggernaut tends to run in and think later. Herding him into the right spot is something Aquaman could do easily.

I'd be curious to know if the Trident of Posieden has any restrictions in the magical sunken city of one of the Great Old Ones.

There's no reason why the environment would affect the Trident in any negative way. It is a weapon of the freaking Gods, after all.

[tnr105]

Maybe it is just my ignorance, but how does Juggernaut breathe under water?

[AmFan15]

This is awesomely entertaining! You guys are doing a great job!

[CrazyChris]

Maybe it is just my ignorance, but how does Juggernaut breathe under water?

Juggernaut's powers make it so he doesn't have to breath. On the other hand, they'll also make him sink like a rock to the bottom, while Aquaman has free movement in every direction. This lets Aquaman have the fight on his terms. Aquaman can strike only when the best tactical opportunity presents itself (i.e., when Juggernaut is lost in the non-euclidean maze that is this arena, has no idea where Aquaman is, and has his guard down). Aquaman can observe Juggernaut for as long as it takes to understand his powers and weaknesses. When the time is right, Aquaman can strike Juggernaut by ripping his helmet off with Aquaman's god-powered trident. Aquaman moves 1000 MPH faster than Juggernaut and is a far more skilled fighter in this terrain, so he'll pull it off. Once it is off then Juggernaut will be vulnerable to both Cthulhu's and Aquaman's telepathy. Aquaman will know he needs to do this because it is common sense that a telepathy-resistent foe is getting that resistance from the bulky piece of metal around his noggin.

That's how I see the environment favoring Aquaman, more so than the breathing thing.

Juggernaut has some decent levels of power but he is constantly defeated by less brawny characters, and kept from being a major player in the Marvel Universe, because he's overconfident, impatient, and a little bit reckless. All he seems to know how to do with his great power is run at them and punch them really hard. Aquaman, on the other hand, is a tactical genius and the master of underwater fighting. He has highly potent magical weapons, which are the one thing capable of getting through Juggernaut's magical protections, and he's too fast and skilled to get hit by Juggernaut while he's using it.

[Thrawn]

That puts him several leagues below Aquaman's fighting ability when it comes to fighting underwater.

Yet still brutally effective. Juggernaut has been able to easily defeat Wolverine who has a much greater knowledge of hand to hand tactics.

If Aquaman can fight Wonder Woman, who is a million times more skilled than Juggernaut, for an extended period of time, then he can fight Juggernaut for long enough to get that Helmet off of him.

Juggernaut would defeat Wonder Woman in my opinion. It stands to reason that even underwater he'd defeat Aquaman in my mind.

I hope he's cozy down there. Meanwhile, Aquaman is using the full arena to his advantage.

See here's the thing though, he has to actually defeat Juggernaut. That means the point of victory for Aquaman is Juggernaut. He has to come to Juggernaut, not the other way around. It doesn't matter how much of the arena he has to work with, he has to come to Juggernaut.

In my opinion that's an advantage for Jugs.

Cthulhu is specifically a water-based monster. Saying Juggernaut would contend with that better than Aquaman is laughable.

Not at all. Cthulhu resided in the sunken city and is water based, but he always tries to take over land. Juggernaut has more experience in weird hellish dimensions and when dealing with demonic creatures like Cthulhu than Aquaman does. See this:'

While in the Crimson Cosmos, Juggernaut managed to pick up some magical skills. Doctor Strange ended up saving him when he needed his help to defeat Nightmare, but Juggernaut accidentally freed Eternity, who then banished him to yet another dimension, called Oblivion. In Oblivion, time moved faster than normal, making people age quicker there, the only antidote to which is pure hatred which Cain had plenty.

The dimension itself had tired of Juggernaut, and so offered to him that if he gave up the magic skills he had learned in the Crimson Cosmos, he could be sent back to Earth.

I'll reiterate again, when dealing with Cthulhu and the sunken city, Juggernaut is more at home than Aquaman and more equipped due to the fact that he's invulnerable and has has his mystic shield.

Aquaman is able to reach out to the part of the human brain that evolved from sea creatures, according to the wiki.

Aquaman's telepathy is less effective on non-aquatic characters. He's not Professor X who is a far more powerful telepath. Even Prof X needs cerebro to find minds on the other side of the planet. Aquaman may be able to located fish across the globe, but fish aren't people.

And fish are not wearing Juggernaut's helmet.

Juggernaut is an Earth human, who is right next to Aquaman, while Aquaman is immersed in water and at his most powerful.

Juggernaut is an Earth human who is currently the avatar for a god.

Big difference.

So Thor in a weakened state can stop Jugs. Aquaman is at his strongest and using a weapon forged by Poseidan, which can control vast mystical forces and dominate the very substance of which this arena is composed.

I think you're overselling Aquaman and underselling Thor.

You see merely stopping Juggernaut is apparently all Thor did. He didn't defeat him. I'm unaware of the specifics of that match but I'd question it. Marvel is always having to figure out ways to depower of handicap the Juggernaut because he's too powerful.

And besides, Juggernaut was able to handle Mjolnir quite weill:

For example , when Thor threw his hammer Mjolnir at the Juggernaut , the force-field was already affecting the hammer and was slowing it down , absorbing all the inertia from it .

During Acts of Vengeance Juggernaut was pitted against Thor by Loki. Thor attempted to smash Juggernaut with his hammer, but Juggernaut not only caught it but rode it back to its Master and nearly ko'ed Thor in one hit.

See this:

Distracted by the New Warriors arrival Thor opened a portal and dumped Juggernaut into an apparenlty uninhabited dimension. This turned out not to be true as Excalibur and Thor found when they went looking for Juggernaut. They found him as King of the alien world and during the second fight Thor again avoided getting beaten by throwing Juggernaut through a portal to an isolated meteorite in space.

That's twice Thor was only able to defeat Juggernaut by outside interference and by sending him away.

Aquaman has neither of those options here.


The other thing is that comparing Thor and Aquaman is laughable. Aquaman is not as strong or powerful as Wonder Woman or Superman. Thor is.

Thor actually is the son of a god. Aquaman is only equipped with a divine weapon. Thor in a sense actually is a divine weapon.

Now that's some attenuated logic. Evil gods see other evil gods as rivals and threats.

Hardly. What do the forces of evil view as a bigger threat than other evil beings? Forces of pure good. Aquaman fits that description. It would be to Juggernaut's benefit to work with Aquaman to team up and defeat Cthulhu but he won't. He'll take out Aquaman first. Cthulhu will realize this and let it play out.

This is a very complicated, labyrinthine arena with non-euclidian geometry.

Labyrinths become much less complicated when they're turned into swiss cheese. Juggernaut will do that

Aquaman can see through the eyes of every sea creature in the area, so he has scouts everywhere and will never lose track off Juggernaut.

I highly doubt living sea life will be down in the sunken city. It's pure evil and supernatural. Earth based sea life will stay well away from it I'm sure.

______________________________________

Since Aquaman is 1000 MPH faster than Juggernaut, he can rush up behind Jugs while has his guard is down. Juggernaut does not keep his forcefield up at all times. Eventually there will be an opportunity and Aquaman will be able to strike. Once the helmet is off,

We both know the only hope Aquaman actually has in winning this match is to remove Juggernaut's helmet.

The problem for him is that it's not that easy. It takes multiple super powered individuals who are familiar with Cain Marko and the nature of his powers to remove his helmet.

Not one. Aquaman might try to remove his helmet eventually, but what is Juggernaut doing while he does that? Just standing around letting him?

No. Aquaman swims him with lots of momentum, slams into Juggernaut in an attempt to remove Jugs' helmet and then Juggernaut erects his force field which will stun and knock Aquaman away. That allows for a follow up attack by Juggernaut and Aquaman does not possess Hulk, Thor, or Superman level durability.

Not even when he's in the water.

Juggernaut has some decent levels of power but he is constantly defeated by less brawny characters, and kept from being a major player in the Marvel Universe, because he's overconfident, impatient, and a little bit reckless.

Juggernaut is one of the top five most powerful character in the Marvel U. When he's at full power he virtually is unstoppable.

The problem with that is Marvel writers have to constantly put him at half power, or turn him into a hero which weakens his power.

The only other way he's defeated is to knock him out of the environment like Thor and Hulk have done or to open up a portal to another dimension.

Aquaman is not capable of doing any of those things here. Especially since leaving the arena is not an option in Fight Club.

The only other way to stop Juggernaut is by very powerful magic, and all Aquaman has is the trident. Thor's Mjolnir is more powerful and Juggernaut was able to deal with it quite well on multiple occasions.

And besides, if the only thing Aquaman has is the trident, Juggernaut can separate him from it. He managed to separate Thor from Mjolnir before. Juggernaut isn't stupid. Contrary to popular belief. He may rash at times, but he isn't stupid.




Under these conditions and this environment I really do think Juggernaut takes Aquaman.

[CrazyChris]

Thrawn wrote:

Yet still brutally effective. Juggernaut has been able to easily defeat Wolverine who has a much greater knowledge of hand to hand tactics.

Wolverine does not have magic weaponry and his only real superhuman abilities are healing, senses, and claws. Aquaman would destroy Wolverine under water, too, more easily than Jugs could on land.

Juggernaut would defeat Wonder Woman in my opinion. It stands to reason that even underwater he'd defeat Aquaman in my mind.

Now that's crazy talk. Wonder Woman can beat superman in hand-to-hand combat, she has faster-than-light-speed, and she has magic weaponry. There's no way she would go down to Juggernaut.

Not at all. Cthulhu resided in the sunken city and is water based, but he always tries to take over land. Juggernaut has more experience in weird hellish dimensions and when dealing with demonic creatures like Cthulhu than Aquaman does.

Water-based monsters that try to take over the land is precisely what Aquaman has spent his whole life protecting the Earth from. You can try to spin this all you want, but you can't turn a sea monster's layer into anything but home sweet home for Aquaman. Juggernaut is more used to extra-dementional beings, but Cthulhu is a "water being" according his wikipedia entry. That puts him squarely in Aquaman's portfolio.

Aquaman's telepathy is less effective on non-aquatic characters. He's not Professor X who is a far more powerful telepath. Even Prof X needs cerebro to find minds on the other side of the planet. Aquaman may be able to located fish across the globe, but fish aren't people.

I don't know what Aquaman's range is for non-equatic life, but when a human or humanoid is standing right next to him he IS a Professor X-like telepath. Again, I refer to the White Martians. They are a race of powerfully psychic aliens who are not even from Earth, let alone from the sea, and yet Aquaman was able to use his telepathy to overpower them.

You see merely stopping Juggernaut is apparently all Thor did. He didn't defeat him. I'm unaware of the specifics of that match but I'd question it.

I'm not sure of the specifics either, but according to the wiki Thor was depowered at the time.

That's twice Thor was only able to defeat Juggernaut by outside interference and by sending him away.

Outside interference is definitely an option here, given that Cthulhu is in the fight.

The other thing is that comparing Thor and Aquaman is laughable. Aquaman is not as strong or powerful as Wonder Woman or Superman. Thor is.

Underwater Aquaman seems to be about as powerful as Wonder Woman, at least. He did lift an entire city block, after all. Underwater, where Aquaman is the master of the water itself and all the life in it, I'd even say he'd stand a solid chance against Thor, especially since Aquaman has a resistance to energy attacks.

What do the forces of evil view as a bigger threat than other evil beings? Forces of pure good. Aquaman fits that description. It would be to Juggernaut's benefit to work with Aquaman to team up and defeat Cthulhu but he won't. He'll take out Aquaman first. Cthulhu will realize this and let it play out.

Evil doesn't work well with evil. Every work of fiction I know of shows that to be true. And since Cthulhu would presumably sense that Juggernaut is the avatar of a god, Cthulhu would see that as a more direct encroachment of his territory. That assuming Cthulhu would discriminate between the two of them at all. I really just see Cthulhu attacking both and Aquaman being better at evading the attacks because Cthulhu is a water monster.

Labyrinths become much less complicated when they're turned into swiss cheese. Juggernaut will do that

So your argument is that Cthulhu will see Aquaman as a greater threat . . . yet Juggernaut is going to be the one smashing all the walls in Cthulhu's city. Excuse me...

I highly doubt living sea life will be down in the sunken city. It's pure evil and supernatural. Earth based sea life will stay well away from it I'm sure.

You're "sure"? Sure that there won't be fish in an underwater city? Please.

Here's the rendition of an artist who isn't as sure as you are:

Aquaman might try to remove his helmet eventually, but what is Juggernaut doing while he does that? Just standing around letting him?

Juggernaut will try not to let him, but Aquaman is more skilled and 1000 MPH faster.

Aquaman swims him with lots of momentum, slams into Juggernaut in an attempt to remove Jugs' helmet and then Juggernaut erects his force field which will stun and knock Aquaman away.

Juggernaut's forcefield seems to only erect when Juggernaut is making a conscious effort to keep it up. He definitely doesn't have it up at all times. Juggernaut has lower speed, lower skill, and does not have superhuman reflexes like Aquaman does. By the time he puts up his forcefield, the helmet is off and the fight is DONE.

And besides, if the only thing Aquaman has is the trident, Juggernaut can separate him from it. He managed to separate Thor from Mjolnir before. Juggernaut isn't stupid. Contrary to popular belief. He may rash at times, but he isn't stupid.

Juggernaut doesn't have the speed to get his hands on the trident. Thor's problem seems to be that he tries to fight Juggernaut head-on, so he's vulnerable to getting pulverized. Thor has similar problems of being rash, just like Juggernaut. Aquaman has much more resources in this fight and he has the tactical mind to use them. The whole battlefield is something Aquaman can control, and he only has to strike at the perfect moment. I know Juggernaut isn't as stupid as someone like the Rhino, but you said it himself: he's rash. He's too rash to win against Aquaman under Aquaman's ideal circumstances.

[Thrawn]

Now that's crazy talk. Wonder Woman can beat superman in hand-to-hand combat, she has faster-than-light-speed, and she has magic weaponry.

You do know that Superman has handily defeated Wonder Woman in the past on more than one occasion right? Superman would defeat Wonder Woman because he has.

So would Juggernaut.

Her magic weaponry is not the type that casts spells. They're more like enchanted items.

There's no way she would go down to Juggernaut.

Yes, I do believe she would. If that match were to ever happen in Fight Club Juggernaut would get my vote. Juggernaut has handed down some brutal beatings on both Hulk and Thor.

Water-based monsters that try to take over the land is precisely what Aquaman has spent his whole life protecting the Earth from... That puts him squarely in Aquaman's portfolio.

Cthulhu is so far out of Aquaman's league it isn't funny CrazyChris. He's a Great Old One. He's a god of immense power. Aquaman is not even as powerful as Wonder Wonder Woman or Superman by the numbers.

I don't know what Aquaman's range is for non-equatic life, but when a human or humanoid is standing right next to him he IS a Professor X-like telepath. Again, I refer to the White Martians. They are a race of powerfully psychic aliens who are not even from Earth, let alone from the sea, and yet Aquaman was able to use his telepathy to overpower them.

Juggernaut has his helmet which I don't believe Aquaman will be able to separate him from.

Outside interference is definitely an option here, given that Cthulhu is in the fight.

I covered that. Juggernaut has taken on other gods before and is more likely to be ignored by Cthulhu in favor of the forces of good Aquaman is radiating in my opinion.

I'd even say he'd stand a solid chance against Thor,

I would too. The thing with Juggernaut's power set though is that he's pretty much unstoppable in any environment barring some last minute dues-ex-machina plot device that Aquaman won't have access to here.

That assuming Cthulhu would discriminate between the two of them at all. I really just see Cthulhu attacking both and Aquaman being better at evading the attacks because Cthulhu is a water monster.

Let's see...Cthulhu is an elder god older than time and space who happens to dwell under the sea. Aquaman is just a water based super hero.

Juggernaut has dealt with powerful demons and gods on occasion, even the source of his own power -Cyttorak.

I'd rank his chances higher against Cthulhu than Aquaman who doesn't have anywhere close to Juggernaut's durability or power.

So your argument is that Cthulhu will see Aquaman as a greater threat . . . yet Juggernaut is going to be the one smashing all the walls in Cthulhu's city. Excuse me...

Cthulhu is older than time and the planet Earth. Do you really think he'll care about stone and rock walls? No.

Aquaman representing the forces of good and wielding a the weapon of another water god - Poseiden - would naturally be the first target. Aquaman is encroaching on Cthulhu's turf more than Juggernaut is.

Here's the rendition of an artist who isn't as sure as you are:

That's a pretty poor rendtion. It doesn't even look like a city. It looks like Cthulhu squatting on the ocean floor more than anything.

does not have superhuman reflexes like Aquaman does.

Yet he's been able to defeat characters like Hulk and Thor. He's also familiar with characters who have super human speed and reflexes like Quick Silver and Rogue.

I wouldn't hang my hat on that.

By the time he puts up his forcefield, the helmet is off and the fight is DONE.

Not quite. If it were that easy Rogue or Quick Silver would just run or fly up and yank it off. They can't.

It sounds nice in theory, but in practice it doesn't work.

Juggernaut doesn't have the speed to get his hands on the trident.

Juggernaut is able to plan and adapt in battle to achieve his goals as well.

Juggernaut has military training and disarming your opponent is basic. He can do it. He was able to disarm Thor and he's taken on Doctor Strange. He can disarm Aquaman. I'm sure of it.

[CrazyChris]

You know, I think I might be letting you off too easy on Juggernaut's intelligence, Thrawn. I said Jugs wasn't as dumb as the Rhino, but on their Marvel Database stats (which come from the official handbook of the marvel universe) Jugs gets a 2 in intelligence, same as Rhino. Under the Marvel rankings, a 2 is classed as "normal" intelligence, which means Jugs is about as smart as your average joe off the street. Aquaman has "an advanced strategic sense" and knows everything there is to know about fighting underwater. He's flat out better at handling a combat situation than Juggernaut. Thor is used to getting into slugfests with Frost Giants, so of course he'll take the direct approach with Juggernaut. Aquaman, on the other hand, will quickly figure out that there are more strategic ways to get the drop on Jugs.

You do know that Superman has handily defeated Wonder Woman in the past on more than one occasion right? Superman would defeat Wonder Woman because he has.

Wonder Woman has defeated Supes, too. It goes both ways.

Her magic weaponry is not the type that casts spells. They're more like enchanted items.

Wonder Woman's whole body is powered by magic. Just her fists alone might be enough to hurt Juggernaut.

Not quite. If it were that easy Rogue or Quick Silver would just run or fly up and yank it off. They can't.

Angel was able to do it while the other X-Men distracted him, and Angel only has peak human strength. In this fight, Juggernaut will be distracted looking for Aquaman and contending with Cthulhu.

Cthulhu is so far out of Aquaman's league it isn't funny CrazyChris. He's a Great Old One. He's a god of immense power. Aquaman is not even as powerful as Wonder Wonder Woman or Superman by the numbers.

Cthulhu was sent back into the water to heal when a boat rammed into his head. That's not out of Aquaman's league.

Juggernaut has taken on other gods before and is more likely to be ignored by Cthulhu in favor of the forces of good Aquaman is radiating in my opinion.

I don't get why you think Aquaman would have some kind of angel aura around him. I don't get why Juggernaut having a habit of fighting gods would make Cthulhu MORE likely to ignore him.

Cthulhu is older than time and the planet Earth. Do you really think he'll care about stone and rock walls? No.

If some strange god avatar comes onto Cthulhu's turf and starts smashing up everything, it'll draw Cthulhu's ire. Cthulhu won't be mad because the curtains got wrinkled, he'd be mad at the hubris, the direct encroachment on his godly domain.

Aquaman is encroaching on Cthulhu's turf more than Juggernaut is.

If two people break into my house, the guy pounding the walls and tossing over the furniture is the one I hit with a baseball bat first.

That's a pretty poor rendtion. It doesn't even look like a city. It looks like Cthulhu squatting on the ocean floor more than anything.

The point was that there is not unanimous agreement that Cthulhu's sunken city would be devoid of sea life. You just pulled that out of your butt.

Yet he's been able to defeat characters like Hulk and Thor. He's also familiar with characters who have super human speed and reflexes like Quick Silver and Rogue.

I wouldn't hang my hat on that.

I'm hanging my hat on that plus Aquaman's superior speed, superior fighting skill, superior tactical acumen, superior knowledge of the terrain, magical control of the terrain, powerful weaponry, and so on and so forth. Hulk and Thor are guys who rush in with their fists swinging. This fight is not going to be about that. Aquaman is in his element so he fights on his own terms.

Not quite. If it were that easy Rogue or Quick Silver would just run or fly up and yank it off. They can't.

History has shown that all it takes to get Juggernaut's helmet off is a distraction. That's why people without super strength like Angel and Wolverine can do it. Cthulhu is around, Aquaman can control the water, control the sea life, can zigzag around the battlefield until Juggernaut has no idea where he is and has to start searching . . . there are many ways Aquaman can distract him.

Juggernaut has military training and disarming your opponent is basic. He can do it. He was able to disarm Thor and he's taken on Doctor Strange. He can disarm Aquaman. I'm sure of it.

Aquaman isn't a basic opponent. He's a master combatant and tactician. Disarming Thor isn't hard if you can match his strength and he's running right at you. Taking on Doctor Strange is nice and all, but I don't know what it has to do with disarming anyone. I think you just threw that in there because it sounds good. I notice you didn't say Juggernaut has defeated Doctor Strange.