by George Berryman » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:48 pm
by CrazyChris » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:05 pm
Master Swimmer: Aquaman is a master swimmer. Perhaps the greatest there is.
Expert Combatant: Aquaman excels at hand-to-hand combat and overall martial ability.
Expert Tactician: He has an advanced strategic sense, and has natural leadership qualities.
even managed to hold out for an incredible length of time against Wonder Woman in combat.
Superhuman Speed: Aquaman's regular speed is approximately 100mph swimming underwater, although slightly less on the surface. In times of distress this has shown to drastically increase, and he has reached 1,000 knots.
His strength would appear somewhat dependent on how hydrated he is as he was capable of lifting a considerable chunk of a city block in Sub-Diego, and has proven capable of shifting an oil rig platform which would weigh thousands of tons as well.
While hydrated sufficiently, Aquaman has twice proven capable of lifting weights in excess of 10,000 tons.
The only known examples of him being stopped involve physical force with mystical involvement, which is Juggernaut's sole weakness. Thor unleashing his power was able to stop him in his tracks but his powers are mystical in origin, It should also be noted that Thor was severely hampered at the time as he was extremely weakened by an extra dimensional malady. During a battle with "War Hulk", the mutant Apocalypse, increased the Hulk's strength and power enormously by grafting Celestial tech to him which again involved mysticism.
The Trident of Poseidon is an unbreakable three-pronged leister that serves as an extension of the God's own power. It can be used for base offensive purpose, but can also be used for a variety of mystical effects, such as cleaving a spatial aperture in the middle of the ocean. The trident is capable of controlling any body of water, creating water elementals, speed ships and other water vehicles with water, create fogs and storms of high intensity, summon waves of water to propel him at great speeds, and create earthquakes by increasing water pressure. It can manipulate and conjure water, as well as disperse energy in the form of bolts and forcefields.
[/quote][/quote]Marine Telepathy: Aquaman has the ability to communicate directly with sea life and has done so throughout most of his life. Lately he possesses a greater range of control that can actually force sea creatures to obey his whims. Currently, he requests their assistance and they comply. He has chosen to continue to request since, if he forces them to comply, they will ultimately lose respect for him. He now also has access to a quantum field phenomenon called "the Clear". "The Clear" quantum phenomenon has been observed with the subject called the Swamp Thing who called it the Green or the Morphogenic Field of Animal Man (also called the Red). Aquaman is also an accomplished telepath in general and can perform such telepathic feats as mind to mind communication, mind probes, mental domination of a non-aquatic mind, and mental attacks. The potency of such mental domination is unclear but he has been seen to use his powers to great effect against the White Martians and Doctor Polaris.
Access to the Clear: Aquaman has the ability to sense the primal emotions of aquatic creatures through "The Clear". The Clear seems to function as a universal consciousness of all sea life. Via it he can communicate or command sea life on the other side of the planet. He can see what they see and much more what he is only beginning to realize. He can also push his telepathic powers to reach out to the higher land creatures to find that element of their brains that was once an aquatic dwelling creature. This may account for Aquaman's facility with language.
by Thrawn » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:07 pm
Self Sustenance: The Juggernaut is completely self sustained, he has no need to breathe, eat, or drink. He cannot tire, hence he cannot sleep, however his self generating mystical energies provides him with the nourishment of sleep, nutrition, hydration, and oxygen. He is sustained by his mystical energies alone.
The Juggernaut is capable of generating a personal force field around himself, extending to about 1 foot in diameter from his body. He uses this force field for many purposes, such as preventing physical contact, keeping debris and unwanted materials off himself, erecting his force field to escape piles of debris easier, and a few other purposes as well. However its most important purpose is the fact that if he is cast in concrete or other materials, for example a plane dropping a large amount of solidifying material that can put his body in a hard cast, or falling into wet concrete that would harden around him in a full body cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast. Hence without this force field he would not be unstoppable.
The force field is also particularly resistant to such materials in the first place, as they would slide off much faster and more smoothly then from his body alone due to the fact it is pure energy.
Cain is completely invulnerable to all forms of physical injury. The Juggernaut's skin cannot be broken, and he is incapable of feeling pain, or sustaining any form of injury from any purely physical attack regardless of magnitude or intensity.
Although Cain is able to be harmed by exceedingly high levels of mental attack, mystical attacks or weapons with mystical properties can hurt Cain, only because they counteract, in some way alter, or reduce the mystical energies that make Cain invulnerable, however, these attacks have rarely been shown to cause any permanent damage.
Aquaman is also an accomplished telepath in general and can perform such telepathic feats as mind to mind communication, mind probes, mental domination of a non-aquatic mind, and mental attacks. The potency of such mental domination is unclear but he has been seen to use his powers to great effect against the White Martians and Doctor Polaris.
His force-field makes him invulnerable to all kind of attacks . Its also showed the ability to hurl back objects and people and the ability to absorb inertia , literally "killing the momentum" . For example , when Thor threw his hammer Mjolnir at the Juggernaut , the force-field was already affecting the hammer and was slowing it down , absorbing all the inertia from it . Another example of this ability was shown when Beast launched the 10 ton steel barrel at the Juggernaut . The force-field stopped it and then hurled back .
With it he has immense strength that far exceeds the ability to lift 100 tons effortlessly. Similarly, due to the mystical nature of his powers granted by an external source of limitless magic as the Gem of Cyttorak, Juggernaut can increase his physical strength to immeasurable levels with a simple thought when he needs it. In this sense, Juggernaut has virtually limitless superhuman strength and his most notable feature of his display of physical power is his unstoppable forward momentum.
by CrazyChris » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:22 pm
First of all, this fight takes place underwater. That doesn't matter to Juggernaut. The Juggernaut doesn't have to breathe.
Do you know how bad underwater earthquakes are? They're very bad. Fissures open up in the ocean floor causing massive suction and if you're very unlucky it releases underwater lava flows.
The only thing that can even begin to hurt the Juggernaut is powerful magic or mystic forces
However it takes exceedingly high levels of mental attacks, and I'll reiterate exceedingly high levels, but we're talking Jean Grey, Professor X, or Emma Frost level attacks.
Aquaman would not in their league when it comes to telepathic attacks on a non-aquatic lifeform.
Of course for any of that to do him any good he'd have to remove Juggernaut's helmet - by himself. As we all know Juggernaut's helmet protects him from mental attacks and it takes teams of heroes to fight the Juggernaut and to remove his helmet. Aquaman is on his own here, and I don't see that happening.
Aquaman is super strong underwater, but it's completely irrelevant to Juggernaut. Jugs has unlimited strength and can increase his strength to whatever levels he desires
by CrazyChris » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:29 pm
And once again his force field also offers protection from Aquaman's attacks
by Thrawn » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:51 pm
CrazyChris wrote: Juggernaut is pretty much just a slugger. He gets by on brute power but he isn’t known for being a master of martial technique.
CrazyChris wrote:even managed to hold out for an incredible length of time against Wonder Woman in combat.
CrazyChris wrote: My research has revealed that he can float in water using his forcefield, but that’s no substitute for the master swimming ability Aquaman has.
CrazyChris wrote:That's a wildcard but something tells me Aquaman is going to have a much easier time contending with an aberrant octopus-like doom god from beneath the sea than Juggernaut is.
Also his force field can resist mystical attacks better then the Juggernaut could do alone, as it is energy created from his actual power. Mystical weapons that can hurt Cain have to penetrate his force field first making it even more useful, not to mention the force field being able to produce more energy to continually push out an intruder that has managed to break into his defences.
CrazyChris wrote: If Juggernaut loses his helmet in the course of this battle (more on that below), then he's going to turn into a gibbering fool within seconds.
CrazyChris wrote:Aquaman can lift over 10,000 tons. He’s lifted an entire city block and an oil rig platform before.
CrazyChris wrote: Basically, it’s like Thor’s Mjolnir, only specifically suited for underwater combat. Juggernaut’s helmet has been removed by X-Men like Angel before. If that’s enough, then an unbreakable weapon of the Gods in the hands of a master warrior strong enough to lift a city block can do it, too.
CrazyChris wrote: The potency of such mental domination is unclear but he has been seen to use his powers to great effect against the White Martians and Doctor Polaris.
CrazyChris wrote: Spider-Man contained him by putting him in cement.
However its most important purpose is the fact that if he is cast in concrete or other materials, for example a plane dropping a large amount of solidifying material that can put his body in a hard cast, or falling into wet concrete that would harden around him in a full body cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast. Hence without this force field he would not be unstoppable.
Or Aquaman could lead Jugs onto the seabed and use his water control power to create quicksand (http://science.howstuffworks.com/enviro ... ksand1.htm). Quicksand would be especially effective against Juggernaut because it has the same consistency as wet cement and you sink into it more the harder you fight.
CrazyChris wrote:What it does is help Aquaman tremendously because this is his realm, his element, his domain.
CrazyChris wrote:Cthulhu drove people insane from around the world. He'll make mincemeat out of Juggernaut's brain.
CrazyChris wrote:It takes a team of puny X-Men to beat Juggernaut! The comparison is silly.
CrazyChris wrote: he is practically a god in this terrain.
CrazyChris wrote:Juggernaut would win this fight on land but right now he's on Aquaman's turf.
Yeah, it can push away solid objects but fluids like quicksand or pressurized water would just envelope the forcefield along with him.
Juggernaut can be defeated by thick fluids because they prevent him from building momentum and there's plenty of that for Aquaman to conjure up.
by Thrawn » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:59 pm
CrazyChris wrote:Yeah, it can push away solid objects but fluids like quicksand or pressurized water would just envelope the forcefield along with him. Juggernaut can be defeated by thick fluids because they prevent him from building momentum and there's plenty of that for Aquaman to conjure up.
However its most important purpose is the fact that if he is cast in concrete or other materials, for example a plane dropping a large amount of solidifying material that can put his body in a hard cast, or falling into wet concrete that would harden around him in a full body cast which would keep his motion prohibited, he can erect this force field to break out of a cast.
by CrazyChris » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:33 am
Juggernaut relies on brute strength, however he does have some military training and hand to hand combat knowledge.
And that' impressive. However holding your own basically equates to staving off an inevitable defeat.
I'm thinking sink like a stone and stay on the bottom of the arena.
I think it's the other way around. Aquaman is really a magic user. Juggernaut has fought Nightmare and slugged it out with Dr. Strange.
Not particularly. Aquaman's telepathy is specifically aimed at aquatic life. He has been shown to be able to affect certain other beings but it's less effective than on aquatic life. Jugs can only be hurt by exceedingly powerful telepathic attacks.
That's good since Juggernaut has handed Thor a beating before. There's no way the Trident of Poseiden is more powerful than Mjolnir and Juggernaut has done fine in the past against it's attacks.
Thor unleashing his power was able to stop him in his tracks but his powers are mystical in origin, It should also be noted that Thor was severely hampered at the time as he was extremely weakened by an extra dimensional malady.
Which he technically shouldn't have been able to do either...
...Force field and then swim out of it. Jugs breaking out of a mountain:
I think you may be misinterpreting what Cthulhu would do. He'd target Aquaman first and use Juggernaut due to Jug's innate evil and the fact that he's an avatar for an evil god.
It's not silly when you consider the fact that on land some of those X-Men are more powerful than Aquaman is on land.
His only chance is to pry Juggernaut's helmet off, and that can only be done up close. He won't be able to use his trident for that.
Aquaman has to come to Juggernaut no matter how you look his tactical options. And when he does, it's over for him.
Like the crushing vacuum of space? Juggernaut has been shown to move just fine on Earth's moon which has no atmosphere. I think he can handle pressurized water.
Not if he's already moving he can't be stopped by any fluids. Juggernaut will be moving in this fight.
CrazyChris may know that Aquaman has to stop the Juggernaut from moving, but Aquaman won't know that. He's never encountered the Juggernaut before.
Nope. See this
I also don't think Aquaman will be creating too much quicksand on the paved roads of the sunken city.
I'd be curious to know if the Trident of Posieden has any restrictions in the magical sunken city of one of the Great Old Ones.
by tnr105 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:19 am
by AmFan15 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:04 am
"Whether Aunt May dies or not isn't the question. If she dies, does it mean anything beyond a brief sales spike because collectors/speculators think they'll be able to make a profit selling the book later? That is the question. Back when, Stan and company won our hearts and minds. I cared about Spider-Man and the other Marvel characters as though they were friends. I cared every time Aunt May got sick. That's what good creative work does."
by CrazyChris » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:17 am
tnr105 wrote:Maybe it is just my ignorance, but how does Juggernaut breathe under water?
by Thrawn » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:58 pm
CrazyChris wrote:That puts him several leagues below Aquaman's fighting ability when it comes to fighting underwater.
CrazyChris wrote:If Aquaman can fight Wonder Woman, who is a million times more skilled than Juggernaut, for an extended period of time, then he can fight Juggernaut for long enough to get that Helmet off of him.
CrazyChris wrote:I hope he's cozy down there. Meanwhile, Aquaman is using the full arena to his advantage.
CrazyChris wrote:Cthulhu is specifically a water-based monster. Saying Juggernaut would contend with that better than Aquaman is laughable.
While in the Crimson Cosmos, Juggernaut managed to pick up some magical skills. Doctor Strange ended up saving him when he needed his help to defeat Nightmare, but Juggernaut accidentally freed Eternity, who then banished him to yet another dimension, called Oblivion. In Oblivion, time moved faster than normal, making people age quicker there, the only antidote to which is pure hatred which Cain had plenty.
The dimension itself had tired of Juggernaut, and so offered to him that if he gave up the magic skills he had learned in the Crimson Cosmos, he could be sent back to Earth.
CrazyChris wrote:Aquaman is able to reach out to the part of the human brain that evolved from sea creatures, according to the wiki.
CrazyChris wrote:Juggernaut is an Earth human, who is right next to Aquaman, while Aquaman is immersed in water and at his most powerful.
CrazyChris wrote:So Thor in a weakened state can stop Jugs. Aquaman is at his strongest and using a weapon forged by Poseidan, which can control vast mystical forces and dominate the very substance of which this arena is composed.
For example , when Thor threw his hammer Mjolnir at the Juggernaut , the force-field was already affecting the hammer and was slowing it down , absorbing all the inertia from it .
During Acts of Vengeance Juggernaut was pitted against Thor by Loki. Thor attempted to smash Juggernaut with his hammer, but Juggernaut not only caught it but rode it back to its Master and nearly ko'ed Thor in one hit.
Distracted by the New Warriors arrival Thor opened a portal and dumped Juggernaut into an apparenlty uninhabited dimension. This turned out not to be true as Excalibur and Thor found when they went looking for Juggernaut. They found him as King of the alien world and during the second fight Thor again avoided getting beaten by throwing Juggernaut through a portal to an isolated meteorite in space.
CrazyChris wrote:Now that's some attenuated logic. Evil gods see other evil gods as rivals and threats.
CrazyChris wrote: This is a very complicated, labyrinthine arena with non-euclidian geometry.
CrazyChris wrote:Aquaman can see through the eyes of every sea creature in the area, so he has scouts everywhere and will never lose track off Juggernaut.
CrazyChris wrote: Since Aquaman is 1000 MPH faster than Juggernaut, he can rush up behind Jugs while has his guard is down. Juggernaut does not keep his forcefield up at all times. Eventually there will be an opportunity and Aquaman will be able to strike. Once the helmet is off,
CrazyChris wrote:Juggernaut has some decent levels of power but he is constantly defeated by less brawny characters, and kept from being a major player in the Marvel Universe, because he's overconfident, impatient, and a little bit reckless.
by CrazyChris » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:09 pm
Yet still brutally effective. Juggernaut has been able to easily defeat Wolverine who has a much greater knowledge of hand to hand tactics.
Juggernaut would defeat Wonder Woman in my opinion. It stands to reason that even underwater he'd defeat Aquaman in my mind.
Not at all. Cthulhu resided in the sunken city and is water based, but he always tries to take over land. Juggernaut has more experience in weird hellish dimensions and when dealing with demonic creatures like Cthulhu than Aquaman does.
Aquaman's telepathy is less effective on non-aquatic characters. He's not Professor X who is a far more powerful telepath. Even Prof X needs cerebro to find minds on the other side of the planet. Aquaman may be able to located fish across the globe, but fish aren't people.
You see merely stopping Juggernaut is apparently all Thor did. He didn't defeat him. I'm unaware of the specifics of that match but I'd question it.
That's twice Thor was only able to defeat Juggernaut by outside interference and by sending him away.
The other thing is that comparing Thor and Aquaman is laughable. Aquaman is not as strong or powerful as Wonder Woman or Superman. Thor is.
What do the forces of evil view as a bigger threat than other evil beings? Forces of pure good. Aquaman fits that description. It would be to Juggernaut's benefit to work with Aquaman to team up and defeat Cthulhu but he won't. He'll take out Aquaman first. Cthulhu will realize this and let it play out.
Labyrinths become much less complicated when they're turned into swiss cheese. Juggernaut will do that
I highly doubt living sea life will be down in the sunken city. It's pure evil and supernatural. Earth based sea life will stay well away from it I'm sure.
Aquaman might try to remove his helmet eventually, but what is Juggernaut doing while he does that? Just standing around letting him?
Aquaman swims him with lots of momentum, slams into Juggernaut in an attempt to remove Jugs' helmet and then Juggernaut erects his force field which will stun and knock Aquaman away.
And besides, if the only thing Aquaman has is the trident, Juggernaut can separate him from it. He managed to separate Thor from Mjolnir before. Juggernaut isn't stupid. Contrary to popular belief. He may rash at times, but he isn't stupid.
by Thrawn » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:44 pm
CrazyChris wrote:Now that's crazy talk. Wonder Woman can beat superman in hand-to-hand combat, she has faster-than-light-speed, and she has magic weaponry.
CrazyChris wrote:There's no way she would go down to Juggernaut.
CrazyChris wrote:Water-based monsters that try to take over the land is precisely what Aquaman has spent his whole life protecting the Earth from... That puts him squarely in Aquaman's portfolio.
CrazyChris wrote:I don't know what Aquaman's range is for non-equatic life, but when a human or humanoid is standing right next to him he IS a Professor X-like telepath. Again, I refer to the White Martians. They are a race of powerfully psychic aliens who are not even from Earth, let alone from the sea, and yet Aquaman was able to use his telepathy to overpower them.
CrazyChris wrote:Outside interference is definitely an option here, given that Cthulhu is in the fight.
CrazyChris wrote: I'd even say he'd stand a solid chance against Thor,
CrazyChris wrote:That assuming Cthulhu would discriminate between the two of them at all. I really just see Cthulhu attacking both and Aquaman being better at evading the attacks because Cthulhu is a water monster.
CrazyChris wrote:So your argument is that Cthulhu will see Aquaman as a greater threat . . . yet Juggernaut is going to be the one smashing all the walls in Cthulhu's city. Excuse me...
CrazyChris wrote:Here's the rendition of an artist who isn't as sure as you are:
CrazyChris wrote:does not have superhuman reflexes like Aquaman does.
By the time he puts up his forcefield, the helmet is off and the fight is DONE.
CrazyChris wrote:Juggernaut doesn't have the speed to get his hands on the trident.
by CrazyChris » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:09 pm
You do know that Superman has handily defeated Wonder Woman in the past on more than one occasion right? Superman would defeat Wonder Woman because he has.
Her magic weaponry is not the type that casts spells. They're more like enchanted items.
Not quite. If it were that easy Rogue or Quick Silver would just run or fly up and yank it off. They can't.
Cthulhu is so far out of Aquaman's league it isn't funny CrazyChris. He's a Great Old One. He's a god of immense power. Aquaman is not even as powerful as Wonder Wonder Woman or Superman by the numbers.
Juggernaut has taken on other gods before and is more likely to be ignored by Cthulhu in favor of the forces of good Aquaman is radiating in my opinion.
Cthulhu is older than time and the planet Earth. Do you really think he'll care about stone and rock walls? No.
Aquaman is encroaching on Cthulhu's turf more than Juggernaut is.
That's a pretty poor rendtion. It doesn't even look like a city. It looks like Cthulhu squatting on the ocean floor more than anything.
Yet he's been able to defeat characters like Hulk and Thor. He's also familiar with characters who have super human speed and reflexes like Quick Silver and Rogue.
I wouldn't hang my hat on that.
Not quite. If it were that easy Rogue or Quick Silver would just run or fly up and yank it off. They can't.
Juggernaut has military training and disarming your opponent is basic. He can do it. He was able to disarm Thor and he's taken on Doctor Strange. He can disarm Aquaman. I'm sure of it.
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