Friendly Fire Fight Club #141 - 'Crash Course KLINGON!'

[George Berryman]

"Greetings, my friends, and hello from the stars. My name is Lando, and that's all you need to know. I've been from one end of the galaxy to the other, babies, emptying credit accounts and breaking hearts all the way. Bruce Lee's on a vacation while yours truly takes you through Friendly Fire's Final Frontiers event. Smoother than a twi'lek's lekku, and that's no hustle.

"Earlier this week Thrawn (who took a break from wallowing pig-like in the entrails of his fallen foes) challenged Ladyspider, who accepted. Ladyspider also invoked the Venomaniac Corollary and stated that the fight would be another dogfight. As her champion, Ladyspider chose a hard-nosed, hard knocks Galactica pilot... Kara Thrace, aka STARBUCK!"



"In response, Thrawn went with Star Wars' master smuggler - and my close, personal friend - HAN SOLO!"



"Since the Venomaniac Corollary was declared and a dogfight match mandated by Ladyspider, George Berryman stepped in to even the playing field by giving both combatants the same type of ship. For tonight, both pilots will be facing one another in Veritech VF-1 Valkyries!"



"Ahh, Robotech, how we love thee. These beauties are capable of three modes of fighting - plane, battloid and an in-between utility mode. Lots of firepower, lots of action! Pew pew, babies! But where will these suckers be fighting? Since it was used right before the start of Final Frontiers, George Berryman decided to give it one more go... the Klingon Homeworld of Qo'noS!"



"Translated as 'Kronos' in English, Qo'noS is the the homeworld of the Klingon Empire in the Star Trek universe. But... you knew all that already cause George used the exact same description before."

"Two more veteran aces in versatile fighter craft! Dude against Chick! Who wins, Fight Clubbers?"

[Ladyspider]

First thing I have to say. Everyone should just vote for me simply just to be done with this whole Thawn Dynasty nonsense.

George the grand poo ba for fight club and the Delta house should remain the record holder and not this pretender.

[George Berryman]

First thing I have to say. Everyone should just vote for me simply just to be done with this whole Thawn Dynasty nonsense.

George the grand poo ba for fight club and the Delta house should remain the record holder and not this pretender.

You're reeeeeally trying to get his goat after all that trash talk in the main thread aren't ya? Heh.

Seriously, if my record has to go down then Thrawn's a worthy enough successor. He's good people and a worthy nemesis. And his roll is even better than mine last year cause I started with a loss before I went on my eight win cruise.

But that being said!

As much as I love Han Solo, and as much as I dislike Kara Thrace... I do think she'd win this. What Solo does in the Falcon isn't really dogfighting. It's more... smuggling and escaping. Han went to an Imperial Navy Academy to hone his skills but that was a long time ago. Thrace, however, lived half of BSG in her damn fighter.

In a smuggling fight, I'd give it to Solo. But in this fight, a straight up dogfight, I have to go with the usurper Starbuck.

By the way... the sexiest thing ever said in Star Wars? "Cover me, Porkins..."

[Tonyd117]

I'll throw my initial vote to Starbuck for the same reasons George listed. But I'll check back in as soon as I can to hear Thrawn's always formidable and well reasoned rebuttals. I'm always open to changing my vote.

[Berserkfury819]

I love both characters, but in a straight up dog fight I'd have to give it to Kara. Also Han is more used to smuggling ships and imperial class starfighters. I think Kara would be able to better adjust to the Valkries from Robotech.

[CrazyChris]

Yeah, I was thinking that Han is more of a smuggler than a dogfighter. Even when the Millennium Falcon does fight, it's usually one guy piloting while others man the guns, which isn't exactly the same as flying a starfighter. I'm sure Han has experience flying fighters, but he doesn't do it full time like Kara does. Maybe some examples of Han's piloting experience with small fighters from the expanded universe would sway me, but it will take something really impressive to get me to vote against Kara.

[Thrawn]

First thing I have to say. Everyone should just vote for me simply just to be done with this whole Thrawn Dynasty nonsense.

George the grand poo ba for fight club and the Delta house should remain the record holder and not this pretender.

Aww, you do care.

__________________________

Seriously though, did you guys watch the same Battle Star Galactic that I did? I saw the first two seasons or so. Thrace has nothing on Solo as a pilot, or his experience in dogfighting. She even spends half the series injured, missing, on a command deck, or in ground battles.

I like Starbuck and Han. The thing is, I'm not a huge Han Solo fan like so many SW fans are. I like him okay, but that's it. I didn't pick him because of my SW fandom. I picked him because of what the character is at his core. The essence of the character isn't that he's a smuggler; he's a pilot first and foremost. End of story.

Starbuck has zero advantages over Han. None.

Starbuck is a hotshot fighter pilot, Han is the orignal hotshot fighter pilot. He's the template, there's clearly a dash of Han Solo in Starbuck.

Let's break the two characters down.

Han Solo is a natural pilot. He always wanted to be a pilot. He was piloting ships and all manner of vehicles when he was a teenager. At ninteen he was competing in swoop bike races.

He made a name for himself racing dangerous repulsorlift swoops professionally and on the independent circuit.

Those races were sometimes life and death. They were fights. Again, Han was doing this as a teenager.


When Han was doing that, Starbuck wanted to be a ball player:

She was a talented Pyramid player (Resistance), and was up for the pros, but an injured knee took her out of contention. However, she discovered a passion and skill for being a fighter pilot (Podcast:The Hand of God).

It was after an injury ended that prospect that she discovered piloting. After that, she went to flight school. Han already had competetive life and death expereince as a pilot.


Starbuck is a trained military pilot. Han Solo is also a trained military pilot. The difference is Starbuck literally learned almost everything she knows from the military. Han honed his already epic piloting skills in the Imperial Navy, all the while learning new tricks to add to his mad skills.

He spent roughly five years or so in the Imperial Navy:

Solo eventually joined the Imperial Academy, to better himself and his piloting skills. Solo's mentor during his Academy days was Badure, or "Trooper" as he was known. During a training drill, Han performed a daring landing maneuver with an aged U-33 transport that earned him the nickname "Slick." Sometime during his military career Han Solo earned the right to wear the Corellian Bloodstripe.

Most of the best pilots in the galaxy ended up in the rebellion. You know where quite a few of them received training? The Imperial Navy, same as Han.

Do you know what Imperial Navy fighter pilot training incorporates? That's right, dogfighting. Ship to ship combat. Han is trained in it. He's one of the best in the SW galaxy.

After getting kicked out of the Imperial Navy for saving wookie slaves, Han Solo participated in countless space battles in which he was dogfighting, not smuggling George.

Han's fought the Empire, the Corporate Sector company, and all manner of space pirates in ship to ship combat. Han has beaten them all due to his superior skills as a pilot, as a combatant, and for his quick thinking and ingenuity.

Han has flown battles against many different alien species, each with different reflex times, and tactics.

Han has been around the block so many times it isn't funny, and all by the age of 30.

Kara has fought the Cylons. That's it. Literally. She taught flight school before the Cylons attacked. Her battle experience compared to Han's is paltry.

Han has experience in many battles against living beings. Cylons are formidable, but nowhere near as innovative or unpredictable as a human pilot. Something Kara has very little experience in during actual combat. Big difference between humans and cylon droid pilots.

Thrace, however, lived half of BSG in her damn fighter.

Han has lived virtually his entire life in a cockpit evading pursuit or fighting other ships. Certainly more than a few seasons of a tv show that ran the course of a few year timeline within the show itself. Han has more experience blowing ships up by the time he was thirty, whereas her experience is limited to a few years.

Also, how many times did she get shot down during the course of the series? Two or three by my count.

I remember this one specifically because it sidelined her for quite some time as a pilot. Further limiting her combat time in a cockpit. Han has no such limitations.

During a surprise encounter with Cylons during nugget training, Thrace destroys several Cylon Raiders, but her ship is damaged and tumbles towards a small red moon with an unbreathable atmosphere. With her Viper in a fatal flat-spin, Thrace is forced to eject from her Viper

Starbuck received a major knee injury from that crash. For most of that season and season two she didn't participate in any ship to ship combat. She was on a lot of ground and commando missions from what I recall or being removed from active duty.

But in this fight, a straight up dogfight, I have to go with the usurper Starbuck.

How is she going to beat Han exactly? Outfly him? I don't think so. Worst case scenario they're equal in skill. Han still has something she doesn't, the experience advantage.

And again, his is specifically against other living pilots, not robotic cylons. Living pilots innovate.

Is going to beat him in tactics? No. Once again, by the time he was thirty (roughly A New Hope Episode IV time) half his life had been space combat with ground fights mixed in. Most of hers was as a nonexperienced military pilot before the cylons attacked.

Starbuck is used to fighting the same enemy. Han isn't. His comat experience is total. He know traditional military tactics, and ship to ship tactics. Han Solo isn't stupid. She isn't going to outmanuver him with a loop de loop and come up behind him. He knows everything she does, plus some.

She is an innovative pilot, Han is equally innovative, and more experienced.

So again, is she going to hit her thrusters and try to get him to fly by her really fast? Han isn't stupid. We all know that. Han is simply more experienced, has the same type of military training as her, plus is unorthodox experience on the run as a smuggler and being chased.

That's actually important. She's been shot down before. I actually don't recall Han being shot down. One important aspecet of dogfighting is not just being a good poilot, but knowing how not to get shot down. Han's experience is almost limitless in this area. He's been chased by Imperials, other smugglers, bounty hunters, and droid fighters.

He knows how to lead an enemy pilot around, how to lure them into making a mistake. Starbuck's experienced pales in comparison to Solo's. Again, almost all her experience is against cylons. She does have expereince against other military cadets and as a flight instructer, but against pilots lesser than she. That's quite important. Han is at least her equal, and if you're familiar with his history infact her superior as a pilot.

_________________-

Let's look at flight experience with various vehicles. Han Solo has flown Corellian fighters (Millenium Falcon), Y-Wings, X-Wings, Tie Fighters, and all manner of various space ships.

Starbuck's experience in other types of combat vehichles is very limited. Something like three over the course of the series? Han is more versed in different types of space ships. He's also more experienced fighting against other types of spaceships.

Once again, Starbuck's combat experience is almost entirely against cylons.

Bottom line is that Han is without a doubt the more well rounded pilot when it comes to ship experience.

____________________


What about location? We're fighting on a planet. Fighting in atmoshere is different than fighting in the zero gravity environment of outer space. There is wind drag, and atmospheric friction on the space craft. Even experience space fighter pilots sometimes forget this and have been shot down in planet atmospheric battles because their ships aren't operating in the manner they're use to.

There's also less visibility and weather patterns to contend with. Han knows how to do this. Solo has actually used this to his advantage a few times. He is aware of this. He was also a swoop racer. Swoop races take place on planets, not in outerspace. Again, his experience and skill help him, Starbuck's experience in this area does not equal Han's in the least.

____________________

So basically let's sum this up for now. We all know Han Solo was a smuggler. That's not why he was chosen. He was chosen because the essence of the character is that he's a space pilot.

1. Han was an expert pilot when he was a teenager already in life or death situations. Starbuck was trying to be a professional athlete.

2. Starbuck received all her pilot training in the military. Han honed his in the military and only got better.

3. Han Solo has flown almost everthing possible in his universe. Specifically military and smuggler combat ships. Starbuck's combat ship experience and first hand knowledge is limited to a few different models in her universe.

4. Han has fought not only droid pilots, but primarily living pilots. Starbuck has only fought cylons, and has training experience against her fellow pilots who she is better than, rendering it not as useful as actual combat experience.

5. Han at the time of Episode Four has over a decade of combat experience, half of which is ship to ship combat. Starbuck has only a few years of combat expereince total over the course of BSG and dies at the end of the series.

6. At least half the series she's not even in a cockpit. She's injured, missing, on a planet, or a ground mission. By Episode IV Han had spent most of his life in a cockpit flying something.

7. Fighting on a planet is much different than flying in outerspace. There is atmospheric drag, friction, and weather patterns to deal with. Han is quite experienced at this as well. Much more so than Starbuck, who from the first two seasons of BSG I saw, had no planetary dogfightst that I remeber. They all took place in space.

8. Tactics. At worst for Han they're equal. Fact of the matter is she isn't going to hit him with something he hasn't seen, or done himself before. Her own experience against living pilots in actual combat is very limited.

9. She's been shot down in combat, and nearly killed. I've never seen Han get shot down and injured like she was, and that was against cylons who aren't nowhere near as skilled, innovative, or as good as Han.

Bottom line is she's never encountered another pilot as good has Han, and he has met and defeated pilots as good as her before.

[iron_patriot]

First thing I have to say. Everyone should just vote for me simply just to be done with this whole Thawn Dynasty nonsense.

I see my name for it, the "Thrawn Legacy" didn't catch on..,

[Thrawn]

Yeah, I was thinking that Han is more of a smuggler than a dogfighter.

Incorrect I'm afraid. Trained military pilot same as Starbuck.

Even when the Millennium Falcon does fight, it's usually one guy piloting while others man the guns, which isn't exactly the same as flying a starfighter.

Two things with this. First, it's still much more combat experience than Stabuck has over the course of the BSG series. Second, as stated above, he's trained in single person fighters.

Even when the Millennium Falcon does fight,

And what do you mean, when it fights? That's all the blasted thing does. It's seen more combat than Starbuck. And that's not an exaggeration. Plus, under Captain Solo, the Falcon's comat record is better than Starbuck's. It's never been shot down in battle.

Han has experience flying fighters, but he doesn't do it full time like Kara does.

From the BSG I saw, the full time thing is deceiving. She was shot down, injured, and was promoted to a command deck. She was also involved in many ground battles, which are not the same experience as ship to ship combat.

The other thing is that Han lives in a ship and has for most of his life, which has been combat, and fighting in one form or another. Her full time expereince doesn't equl Han's in the slightest.

There's also the fact that she hasn't been at war nearly as long as he has. Let's not forget before the cylon invasion, Starbuck was only an instructer, while Han as already blowing Imperial and smuggerl ships out of orbit.

Maybe some examples of Han's piloting experience with small fighters from the expanded universe would sway me, but it will take something really impressive to get me to vote against Kara.

Again, same military training as her, but he was already experienced with ships before she was even a pilot. Second, she was an instructor, while her planet wasn't at war.

By the time Starbuck and Han were the same age, he had already fought at the battle of Nar Shaddaa.

The smuggler thing misses entire point of Han Solo. He's one of the absolute best pilots in the galaxy. The smuggling business is how he made his living. That's it.

There's also the fact that as a pilot, in space battles, he's fought all manner of living opponents. Her own experience is pretty much all against cylons.

There is not a tactic or manuever she can do that he hasn't seen, done, or countered. He's just too good, smart, and experienced.

[Tonyd117]

[
So basically let's sum this up for now. We all know Han Solo was a smuggler. That's not why he was chosen. He was chosen because the essence of the character is that he's a space pilot.

1. Han was an expert pilot when he was a teenager already in life or death situations. Starbuck was trying to be a professional athlete.

2. Starbuck received all her pilot training in the military. Han honed his in the military and only got better.

3. Han Solo has flown almost everthing possible in his universe. Specifically military and smuggler combat ships. Starbuck's combat ship experience and first hand knowledge is limited to a few different models in her univers.

4. Han has fought not only droid pilots, but primarily living pilots. Starbuck has only fought cylons, and has training experience against her fellow pilots who she is better than, rendering it not as useful as actual combat experience.

5. Han at the time of Episode Four has over a decade of combat experience, half of which is ship to ship combat. Starbuck has only a few years of combat expereince total over the course of BSG and dies at the end of the series.

6. At least half the series she's not even in a cockpit. She's injured, missing, on a planet, or a ground mission. By Episode IV Han had spent most of his life in a cockpit flying something.

7. Fighting on a planet is much different than flying in outerspace. There is atmospheric drag, friction, and weather patterns to deal with. Han is quite experienced at this as well. Much more so than Starbuck, who from the first two seasons of BSG I saw, had no planetary dogfightst that I remeber. They all took place in space.

8. Tactics. At worst for Han they're equal. Fact of the matter is she isn't going to hit him with something he hasn't seen, or done himself before. Her own experience against living pilots in actual combat is very limited.

9. She's been shot down in combat, and nearly killed. I've never seen Han get shot down and injured like she was, and that was against cylons who aren't nowhere near as skilled, innovative, or as good as Han.

Bottom line is she's never encountered another pilot as good has Han, and he has met and defeated pilots as good as her before.

I'll throw my initial vote to Starbuck for the same reasons George listed. But I'll check back in as soon as I can to hear Thrawn's always formidable and well reasoned rebuttals. I'm always open to changing my vote.

This match could go either way. Thrawn made one hell of an argument. Consider my vote changed.

[Thrawn]

Consider my vote changed.

I totally want your vote. Just please make sure that if you have already voted for Starbuck to go back and change your vote. Much appreciated if you actually do decide to change to the scruffy nerf herder's side.

Trust me, as far as pilots go, Han has Starbuck beats. Plus, she's somewhat inspired by him anway. I gotta go with the original.

Iron Patriot wrote:

I see my name for it, the "Thrawn Legacy" didn't catch on..,

I prefer legacy to dynasty myself.

[CrazyChris]

You make a pretty strong argument Thrawn. Though if Cylons were that inferior to human pilots, they wouldn't have wiped out most of the human race so easily. I'd take my chances against a TIE fighter over a Cylon any day. And I get that Han has participated in fighter-to-fighter battles, but it's not the thing he does all day, every day like Kara. I'm also not buying the fact that she was a flight instructor means she's LESS qualified to win a flight battle. She has less experience in the field than Han, true, but I keep coming back to what KIND of experience it is. Not all flying is the same. Han might overall be a better-rounded pilot, but Kara wakes up in the morning, flies a fighter, goes to sleep, lather, rinse repeat and she's been doing it for years. Even as an instructor, she's still getting behind the stick of a fighter and studying in-depth battle tactics and flight maneuvers.

[Thrawn]

You make a pretty strong argument Thrawn.

Thank you.

Though if Cylons were that inferior to human pilots, they wouldn't have wiped out most of the human race so easily.

They used a cyber attack and nukes to take out the planet. Different types of cylons. I'm talking about the genric drone cylons that were the pilots. That's the only enemy she's flown into combat against. Fighting unthinking, robotic beings that have no intution is not at all like fighting a real pilot.

And I get that Han has participated in fighter-to-fighter battles, but it's not the thing he does all day, every day like Kara.

That's the entire point. She doesn't do this everyday and in fact...hasn't. She was a flight instructor for most of her piloting life. Her first taste of combat came when the cylons attacked until the end of the series. More than half of that she wasn't even in a cockpit. And when she was, it was always against cylons.

Han has fought flesh and blood pilots.

I'm also not buying the fact that she was a flight instructor means she's LESS qualified to win a flight battle.

Being in the classroom and in training exercises is no substitute for actual combat. She's still a gifted pilot, the point I'm making is that for all the talk of her "doing this everyday, all the time", she doesn't. More than half her professional career was as a non-combat tested pilot.

Han has been in combat since he was a teenager up until we saw him in ANH, and beyond. Like I said before, worst case scenario for Han is that they're equally skilled, but then throw in over a decade of actual combat experience against human and alien pilots. Not robots.

It's like fighting, or sports, or video games, or yes war. Theory and classroom experience is all well and good, but it doesn't substitute for the real thing.

She has less experience in the field than Han, true, but I keep coming back to what KIND of experience it is.

I'm talking about combat experience, specifically dogfighting. Starbuck is severly lacking compared to Han. Remember her combat experience didn't start until the beginning of BSG. Han had over a decade of piloting in combat when we met him in Episode IV. Starbuck was a flight instructer, whose sole dogfighting experience from then on was against cylons. Not human pilots who can adapt quicker and have innovation. That's what she's use to.

Han might overall be a better-rounded pilot, but Kara wakes up in the morning, flies a fighter, goes to sleep, lather, rinse repeat and she's been doing it for years.

That's my point. She hasn't been fighting for years. She was in class room, or in administrative trouble. As the series went on, she was only in the cockpit sporadically. She was injured, promoted away from being a fighter pilot, on commando missions, or in her romance with Lee Adama.

This idea that she was always in battles as a pilot is patently false when you look at the totatality of her life and specific combat experience as a pilot .

And when she was in the cockpit, who was it against? Cylons or other pilots who were not her equal and couldn't actually test her. Han is at least her equal in sheer skill, plus his actual experience in dogfighting vastly outweighs hers, and due to his much wider combat experience against very good pilots which gives him a much better graps of ship to ship tactics since he's actually used them. He's been tested against list of worhty and dangerous opponents and outflown and outsmarted them all.

Proven in battle. Starbuck's is a much more limited experience against lesser opponents.

Even as an instructor, she's still getting behind the stick of a fighter and studying in-depth battle tactics and flight maneuvers.

Han actually lives in his ship. By the time of Episode IV has for over a decade. Flight time is no comparison. Han has her dead to rights.

As for her being an instructor, again she's teaching rookie cadets with little to no experience. As I recall she was far superior to any of them. Yes it's experience, but it's not the most valuable kind. They are lesser opponents her aren't capable of pushing her. She's teaching them, no the other way around.

Han has dogfighting experience against the best pilots in the galaxy, from the Imperial Academy, the Battle of Narshadda, countless smuggling skirmshes, encounters with the Empire. In Empire Strikes Back he survives and takes on Vader's fleet and all it's tie fighters in a less than 100% Falcon.

How's Starbuck going to defeat him? There isn't a tactic she can throw at him he hasn't seen. Different universes, but the basic combat principals are the same.

When it comes to experience with different kinds of ships, Han also wins that contest. It just keep coming down to Starbuck's combat experience against actual opponents all starts with the beginning of BSG, and it ends with her life and the finale of the series.

In between that, her actual fighter pilot experience is sporadic due to injuries, ground missions, captures, romantic dramas. Whereas Han has been blowing ships up in actual dogfights for a decade before she even began.

Han is an ace military fighter pilot who happens to be a smuggler that's been doing this for over a decade. She's an ace military fighter pilot whose been fighting cylon pilots for a few years at most if we take her at the end of the series.

And for all her supposed skill as a "dogfighter", she was shot down and nearly killed at the beginning of the series. Han has never been severely injured in all his dogfights. How's she better again?

He's a far more dangerous and skilled pilot than any cylon she's ever fought.

Han's got every advantage and personal experience he needs to beat her. The only argument I see being made is that she spends every waking hour in a fighter dogfighting which is not true at all, and then the length of the events of BSG was only a few years at most from what I remember and then she dies.

I'd take my chances against a TIE fighter over a Cylon any day.

I would not. I pointed out above that a lot of the best pilots in the galaxy were trained at the Imperial academy. The elite Tie Fighters are dangerous. Not the generic ones you see as cannon fodder. I'll take an automated cylon that lacks a human's ability to think ahead, scheme, and plan in battle anyday.

And as previously stated, Han's dealt with more than just Imperials. He's also dealt with smugglers, and bounty hunters. The dangerous ones all have upgraded ships with more advanced armor and weapons that the average Tie Fighter.

Han has dealt with all of them, and won.

[CrazyChris]

I think you are putting on a good case, but I want you to get more specific about what Han has done in a fighter as opposed to the Millennium Falcon, which is a freighter. Even though all your points about Kara being out of action for significant periods of time are fair, I still keep coming back to her being a specialist when it comes to fighters and Han having a more diverse background yet not focusing as much on this particular kind of fighting.

And I'm just not convinced that human pilots are so much more innovative and deadly than Cylons. Here is some info on the Cylon Raiders from wikipedia:

This fighter is very different from the previous, piloted Raider used during the Cylon War (the Raider from the 1978 series). The new Raiders are cybernetic in nature: the ship is actually a living creature. Just like the humanoid Cylons, the Raiders are also capable of being "reborn" into new Raiders after having been destroyed.[1] This is done so that new, replacement Raiders do not have to be trained, meaning that experienced combat "pilots" that have been killed are quickly available for duty again. This provides the Cylons with a distinct tactical advantage in the amount of battle-seasoning a Raider will have over a replacement Viper pilot; in essence, every time a Raider is destroyed, it is reborn slightly improved having "learned" through each Death/Downloading/Rebirth life-cycle it undergoes.[2]. Raiders can also perform riskier, but more devastating attacks on the Colonials, including but not limited to, kamikaze-style attacks.

The Cylon fighters are partially-organic creatures (I remember that from the show) and whenever they die, their knowledge is downloaded back to the mothership and are rebuilt, retaining all their experience. That makes them quite different than the mindless drones you are asking us to envision and they have more potential to gain experience than mortal, human pilots. Holding your own against these is pretty impressive.

Sharon Valerii has stated that the Cylon Raiders are very much like trained animals with basic thought and survival instincts. They also feel pain and trauma in the experience of death.

The comparison to "trained animals" lends some strength to your argument that they aren't as intelligent as human pilots, but considering the fact that they were able to kill countless human pilots (actually, the show did keep a tally of how many humans were left, but you get the point) makes me think they are only animalistic in a limited sense. They were proven to be quite intelligent and nefarious opponents in space.

It was even debated in the show whether or not the Raiders had developed free will:

During battle in the episode "He That Believeth in Me", a Raider scans a Viper piloted by Samuel T. Anders. The Raider, possibly believing Anders to be one of the Final Five Cylons withdraws, along with the other Raiders who refuse to fight. This act leads the Twos, the Sixes, and the Eights to believe the Raiders have developed free will. The other models believe the Raiders have exceeded their original programming and vote, along with a single Number Eight, Boomer, to have the Raiders reconfigured back to their basic mode. The Twos, Sixes and other Eights protest vehemently and in retribution remove inhibitor modules from the Centurions, effectively giving them independent thought. The Centurions become angered by what the other models have considered the lobotomy of the Raiders and seek retribution on the models who voted for it.

So in sum I think you are shortchanging what it means to fight Cylons and consistently survive the encounters.

But I don't think you should give up trying to convince me. You're putting a lot into these arguments and you've almost got me to the point where I'll change my vote provided that Ladyspider doesn't come back with an equally compelling argument. I really just want you to get more specific. When is a time Han was in a small, one-man fighter and did something extremely impressive? You're being general, just saying he has flown these kinds of craft without really going into the specific feats he accomplished. You mentioned a battle, but what specifically did he accomplish in that battle that makes him stand out? Was there some fleet of elite fighters that he took out single-handedly? A well known ace that he beat in his career? Think along those lines. Otherwise I just have to fall back on the fact that I've seen Han pilot a freighter and Kara pilot a fighter, and this is a fighter match,

[George Berryman]

But I'll check back in as soon as I can to hear Thrawn's always formidable and well reasoned rebuttals.

Yeah he never half-asses it does he?

Yeah, I was thinking that Han is more of a smuggler than a dogfighter.

Incorrect I'm afraid. Trained military pilot same as Starbuck.

Well it's really not the same though.

Han was a cadet at the Imperial navy school, though he graduated at the top of his class. But how much time, seriously, has he spent in a fighter craft recently? The Falcon's a modified YT-1300 stock freighter.

Starbuck was so good she was actually a combat flight instructor. She also has way more experience as a dogfighter than Solo does. Solo's smuggling, but it's not really the same thing. What Solo does is slick moves to get away from people.

Han's style is more "See you later, suckers!" while Starbuck's style is more "I will laser your goddamn face off, asshole."

Additionally? Most of the time we see Han shooting at stuff on the Falcon he's got Chewie, Luke or others manning guns. Not all the time but most. Yet during his fights he's never alone. Chewie's right there beside him helping. When Starbuck goes out she does go out with a wingman but they're at least in different craft.

I loves me some Han Solo and I never liked Starbuck. But skill and experience wise I do have to give this to Thrace. I do believe she's better at just pure dogfighting.