Crawl Space #10 Discussion Thread

[Kevin Cushing]

Haven't read the issue yet? Go do so now lest ye be spoiled!

So, what did you guys think of "One in Million Part 2 of 3?"

How about that back-up material?

And if you haven't already, make sure to check out an EXCLUSIVE preview of Hambone's inks for the Crawl Space #11 cover at Spideydude.com!

And it's time to play "What's that Homage" round 2. First one to post the Clone Saga cover that this issue's cover is in homage to wins the internet for the day! I thought this would be the easiest one since it's by far the most direct homage of the three, but Spideydude correctly pointed out to me that the Clone Saga cover we're homaging isn't necessarily the most widely recognizable issue in the world. So I guess we'll just have to see how up you guys are on your 90's Spidey comics! (Spideydude - let the others give it a shot at it before you school them ) Here's another look at the cover to refresh your memory:

[Venomaniac]

So If I were grading this I'd have to create an entirely new scale... what's 10 times better then an A+ again?

Seirously, it was INCREDIBLE!!!
You claim you're weak with action, but you're getting better all the time

Harry's scenes had me bouncing with glee. He's sooooo evil now!

Btw I LOVE Toxin, though I am curious about one thing. In the comics, the symbiote was clearly very childlike. Toxin sounded different the moment he spoke. After a page or two i realized why: you made the symbiote into a teenager. Care to explain why??

Also, can you keep Peter as head of Oscorp? It's an interesting change and Iwant it to last and not be an illusion of change (se what I did there? )

One gripe though... When did Carlie become Betty Brant? I mean, I like Carly and all, but there's already a badass gun-toting ex of Flash Thompson with alliteration in her name

I also had to repost the BEST quote

HARRY:
Wow, my old friend the party girl really is gone, isn’t she?
MJ:
She’s right here, Harry. She just grew up.


You sir, deserve an Eisner.

I haven't been this psyched for the next issue of a comic... ever

[Donomark]

Another solid issue man, I really like the threat of New York being attacked by dozens and dozens of Spider-Men. This is turning out to be a really kick-ass story arc!

The cover is definetely familiar...I don't wanna go on Spider-Fan.org and cheat. If I were to guess, Toxin is taking the place of Ben, but I dunno...

[Kevin Cushing]

So If I were grading this I'd have to create an entirely new scale... what's 10 times better then an A+ again?

Seirously, it was INCREDIBLE!!!

Thanks, man! Glad to hear you liked this one so much better!

You claim you're weak with action, but you're getting better all the time

I really appreciate that. A big part of the idea of this arc for me was to challenge myself to just do it. And it has been a big challenge, but I'm really starting to feel more comfortable with it. I still think I have a lot of room for improvement, but at least I don't feel like it entirely sucks anymore.

Btw I LOVE Toxin, though I am curious about one thing. In the comics, the symbiote was clearly very childlike. Toxin sounded different the moment he spoke. After a page or two i realized why: you made the symbiote into a teenager. Care to explain why??

You are very perceptive, sir. That is exactly what I did. I did it for a few reasons. 1) The idea of Pat 'raising' this symbiote is one of the most interesting things about the character, and I think it provides a whole lot more potential for both comedy and drama if he's at a very early teenage level as opposed to an infant, 2) I figure the symbiotes must mature pretty fast, given what we've seen with other symbiotes (Toxin isn't exactly like any of the others, as defined in the continuity-challenged 'Venom vs. Carnage,' but I thought it provided a good foundation for maturing him into early teenage years quickly), and 3) That was honestly the most natural way to write him, I found. I decided all the other stuff after beginning to write the character, because that was the natural voice I found flowing out of him, and when I started to think about it, it really made sense (as described above).

Also, can you keep Peter as head of Oscorp? It's an interesting change and Iwant it to last and not be an illusion of change (se what I did there? )

Peter won't be the head of Oscorp forever, but he'll definitely be there for awhile. As I've developed the ongoing story, I've decided to keep him there a lot longer than I originally intended.

One gripe though... When did Carlie become Betty Brant? I mean, I like Carly and all, but there's already a badass gun-toting ex of Flash Thompson with alliteration in her name

Carlie's not going to start becoming a vigilante or anything. She really wouldn't ever shoot anybody. But in this situation, she found out they're what she describes as "not real people," her boyfriend and some kids were in trouble, and she does work for the police. This was a situation where she was able to go into "taking care of business" mode. And, God love her, there aren't many of those

You sir, deserve an Eisner.

Well I wouldn't go nearly that far, but I appreciate the sentiment!

Another solid issue man, I really like the threat of New York being attacked by dozens and dozens of Spider-Men. This is turning out to be a really kick-ass story arc!

Thanks, man, glad you're diggin' it! If I'm not entertaining the Clone Saga Chronicles crew with a clone arc, I'm not doing my job

[musicfighter]

This is actually my first exposure to Toxin, and I really like him. He's hilarious.

Highlight of the issue has to be the ringtones though. Starting with Carlie's ringtone for Flash, then "Toxic", and finally giving the true punchline with Peter's phone, you gave us some really impressive, funny, and most importantly, unique character bits of sorts.

One thing I noticed while reading this was how dense this would be as a real comic. I'm currently re-reading the Ditko issues (catchin' up with ASM Classics) and seeing how many average panels per page there were. In these Silver Age stories they averaged about 7 per page. I'm surprised to realize that this was about the same (maybe 6 instead of 7) average for you on CS. Not really a criticism since more story is always a good thing, but I have also heard about a lot of modern comic artists (though I'm having trouble remembering specific examples) who don't really like (or are probably too lazy) to do that many panels per page.

Not my favorite, but there was some excellent character work here. Bravo!

[Shadow116]

Time for my regularly scheduled Crawl Space review.

Definitely another home run Kev, I know it seems like I just keep on giving your perfect scores, but I honestly am not finding major fault within anything here. You have the voice of these characters down, and once again I love the easter eggs/past references/BD scenes you've thrown in. I have a theory on Harry, but I'm loving his trying to redeem himself in MJ/Peter's eyes. The Flash and Carlie stuff I'm loving as the relationship has evolved very naturally to me, and of course all these clones running around finally gets all of Spidey's rogues and allies into a tizzy.

As far as Cat and Toxin in this issue I love 'em. Cat/Spidey banter is always a joy when done right, and I just love Toxin lol. Really looking forward to the next issue.

Now onto my rating: 5 brains out of 5

[CrazyChris]

Random thoughts in no logical order:

-Toxin is FUNNY. There was a line of his that made me chuckle out loud, which is rare when I'm reading. I'm talking about the face licking line.

-Harry and MJ had some great interaction. The cosmic cube development is intriguing.

-The cover is the best thing about the issue! (I hope Kevin doesn't take offense to that). Damn, guys!

-I can't see the next cover because the Spideydude.com link doesn't work.

-The issue overall was a radical change in tone from what you've done so far with this series. It's very lighthearted and has a lot of gags and inside jokes. It's good to see you branching out, Kevin!

-The clones turning into dust reminds me of Buffy, especially with the wrist spikes standing in for stakes.

-I feel like Spidey deducing that the clones weren't sentient was maybe a little too fast and convenient. Oh well, at least it saved us from unnecessary Spider-Angst and "oh what have I done" guilt.

-Brad's appearance was great.

-Carly's dirty joke was great. I'm starting to warm up to your version of her.

-Mister CLean IS.

[slave83b]

Haven't finished the issue yet, but I know the homage!

Spider-Man Unlimited #11

[RHagen]

More "Brad Douglas, Action News Reporter!" - Check! (Say it out loud, in a cheesy announcer voice)

Mr. Clean Cameo - Check!

Back-handed, in-character commentary on the upcoming 'Spider-Lantern' costume - Check!

All in all, an enjoyable read. Definitely would enjoy seeing a George Perez (someday hopefully) poster of the massive free-for-all battle between the Avengers, the FF, Thunderbolts and the Spider-Rogues against the Clone Army. I'm interested to see what will happen next, and if Harry can truly be trusted.

[Venomaniac]

Thanks, man! Glad to hear you liked this one so much better!

Well it was AMAZING!

Forogt to mention... I LOVED Mr. Clean's appareance in this. And the rogues
And Crappy McMoron actually did something...sortof


[quote= "Kevin Cushing"] You are very perceptive, sir. That is exactly what I did. I did it for a few reasons. 1) The idea of Pat 'raising' this symbiote is one of the most interesting things about the character, and I think it provides a whole lot more potential for both comedy and drama if he's at a very early teenage level as opposed to an infant, 2) I figure the symbiotes must mature pretty fast, given what we've seen with other symbiotes (Toxin isn't exactly like any of the others, as defined in the continuity-challenged 'Venom vs. Carnage,' but I thought it provided a good foundation for maturing him into early teenage years quickly), and 3) That was honestly the most natural way to write him, I found. I decided all the other stuff after beginning to write the character, because that was the natural voice I found flowing out of him, and when I started to think about it, it really made sense (as described above).[/quote]
Not trying to play backseat writer (and I love what you've done with Pat), but wouldn't it be more logical to have the symbiote be more like a tween (pre-teen) then a teen?
Also, any plans for Gina?

One gripe though... When did Carlie become Betty Brant? I mean, I like Carly and all, but there's already a badass gun-toting ex of Flash Thompson with alliteration in her name

[quote= "Kevin Cushing"] Carlie's not going to start becoming a vigilante or anything. She really wouldn't ever shoot anybody. But in this situation, she found out they're what she describes as "not real people," her boyfriend and some kids were in trouble, and she does work for the police. This was a situation where she was able to go into "taking care of business" mode. And, God love her, there aren't many of those [/quote]

Oh, I'm not saying it was OOC or anything. i was just noting it seemed very similar to Betty

[slave83b]

Ok, I'm definitely digging this. Even setting aside my noted soft spot for clone stories, this was just a damned fun issue.

- I really dug the way you wrote the interaction between Pat and Toxin.

- I never thought I'd say this, but Carlie was pretty badass! And it worked! Congratulations once again on getting me to give a damn about her.

- I am absolutely loving Evil Harry. It's clearly going to be a slow build, but I have no doubt the payoff is going to be worth it.

- I have to agree with what Chris said. Peter realizing the clones weren't sentient was arguably a touch convenient, but it beats the hell out of wallowing in some needless Spider-Angst. While that obviously wouldn't have been out of character (it's a cliche for a reason, after all) it's still a plot device that's too easy to fall back on, and it's nice to just get it out of the way for a change.

- Finally, I also agree that your action scenes are improving. Despite the sheer scope of the fights in the issue, not once did I lose track of what was going on, nor was I tempted to skim through the fight.

[SpideyFan914]

Hey, all! I'm new!

So, after months of a certain friend of mine *cough*venomaniac*cough* telling me how great this random guy on crawlspace was, I figured it was about time that I finally check it out.

Applause, applause!

So, sorry for not wanting to post in every discussion thread, but I'm gonna go through the whole thing right here.... My thoughts so far.

The first issue was.... quite fun, actually. Rushed, yes, but it was clear that you just wanted to get it out of the way so you could move onto your bigger story plans.
The big twist in #2 was cool, though I kind of saw it coming, partially just because that certain friend told me of "a huge twist," and whenever someone says that, you see it coming....
I honestly am surprised that I didn't figure out who the Faceless Man was, haha! I'm usually pretty good at that stuff, and looking back at it, it was a fairly obvious way to tie the story together. By the way, LOVED the Faceless Man! He was just so cool and creepy - I actually like him better as the Faceless Man than as Gabe Stacy!
Simon was great. I love screwed-up crazy villains with real out-there motives that make you blink. They're fun to write and read. You're all like, "Wait a minute - nothing he's saying makes any sense! This isn't help Peter!" And yet, in his mind, it DOES make sense. It's hard to create these cool, unique villains when mostly everything's been done before, but you've managed with Simon. Yeah, I liked him.
As for Harry as the Goblin King.... well, I'm not too certain about all the added powers, but I like the look and he still sounds like Harry. I'm still waiting on him, in other words. Interesting to see what he's planning with Sarah.... If I recall correctly (never actually read the infamous Clone Saga - too many crossovers for me to keep up), it turned that the Gwen Stacy clone was actually a woman redesigned to look like Gwen and share her memories, correct? Interesting....
Morbius.... Well, I've heard you're obsessed with him, and I respect that, but honestly, I don't see how he fits. We'll see.
The current arc's got a pretty cool premise. Yes, the idea of - dozens? Hell, hundreds! Thousands - no, a million Spideys (considering that it IS called "One in a Million") waging war on the city is a pretty solid concept. Interesting to see how this ends.... Oh, and since when does Norman have a cosmic cube? I only recently learned of its existence (via wikipedia) after I learned it would be in the Captain America movie, lol.
Toxin's hilarious. This is my first exposure to him too. Already love him.

Well, that's all. Oh, and just to let you know - despite the very, very mild critical-points, I still loved it. I criticize. It's what I do. Whenever I write something, I expect criticism too. In fact, I get paranoid when people praise me too much and think they're just saying that and secretly hated it. So, yeah. I'm honest. Don't hate me.

[Venomaniac]

Welcome to the boards!

And Kev, on the note of the COsmic Cube...

Wouldn't Norman have used it by now??

[Kevin Cushing]

Wow, you guys have really turned out quick for this one! Thanks so much to everyone for reading and for all the great comments! You've really made me feel good this morning!

This is actually my first exposure to Toxin, and I really like him. He's hilarious.

That's really great to hear! I highly recommend the "Toxin: The Devil You Know" TPB if you're interested in the character. That mini is what fostered my love for him.

Highlight of the issue has to be the ringtones though.

Glad you liked that! After using two, I decided to just give in and let it be sort of a running joke for the issue. I was pretty pleased with them in general

One thing I noticed while reading this was how dense this would be as a real comic. I'm currently re-reading the Ditko issues (catchin' up with ASM Classics) and seeing how many average panels per page there were. In these Silver Age stories they averaged about 7 per page. I'm surprised to realize that this was about the same (maybe 6 instead of 7) average for you on CS. Not really a criticism since more story is always a good thing, but I have also heard about a lot of modern comic artists (though I'm having trouble remembering specific examples) who don't really like (or are probably too lazy) to do that many panels per page.

Of course, if I had an artist I would tailor my scripts to their specific needs and skills. But since I don't, and I can just write sort of my ideal, I like to pack as much story into an issue as possible. It might seem a little silly since this is free, but I feel like I'm cheating people if I don't give them their 'money's' worth. Or, in the case of Crawl Space, just their time's worth.

Definitely another home run Kev, I know it seems like I just keep on giving your perfect scores, but I honestly am not finding major fault within anything here.

Hey, you won't hear any complaints from me!

Now onto my rating: 5 brains out of 5

Thanks, man, and thanks for all the compliments! Really glad you enjoyed it!

-Toxin is FUNNY. There was a line of his that made me chuckle out loud, which is rare when I'm reading. I'm talking about the face licking line.

Really glad everyone's responding so well to the character. I love him and I'm out to show people why!

-The cover is the best thing about the issue! (I hope Kevin doesn't take offense to that). Damn, guys!

Not only am I not offended, I agree 100%! I keep saying I've got one of the best art teams in comics, and I defy anyone to disagree with me after seeing that cover! I'm entirely serious when I say if Marvel was publishing this comic, I'd want Hambone and bdog on the art!

-I can't see the next cover because the Spideydude.com link doesn't work.

Spideydude sends me the direct links before the issue and the article go up so I can include them when I post the issue, and he schedules the articles to go up a bit later. Last issue it went up on spideydude.com only about an hour after the issue went up. Not sure why it's still not there this time. I sent a PM to Spideydude to ask about it. I'll update this thread when it's up. Sorry about that!

-The issue overall was a radical change in tone from what you've done so far with this series. It's very lighthearted and has a lot of gags and inside jokes. It's good to see you branching out, Kevin!

Thanks, Chris! I think two big reasons for this one being a bit funnier are A) Toxin, and B) Peter is Spider-Man from beginning to end of this issue. More Spidey fighting means more humor to me!

-The clones turning into dust reminds me of Buffy, especially with the wrist spikes standing in for stakes.

Heh, I see where you're coming from. Honestly, I never would have decided to have clones turn to dust, just not something that would have occurred to me. But when Ben Reilly died in PPSM #75, he immediately turned to dust, so that's where I'm taking it from.

Haven't finished the issue yet, but I know the homage!

Spider-Man Unlimited #11

Yep, slave83b wins the internet for the day! Here's the cover to the original issue for comparison. I think you can see what I meant when I said it's a very direct homage (and props to Donomark for recalling correctly that Toxin is standing in for Ben):

Back-handed, in-character commentary on the upcoming 'Spider-Lantern' costume - Check!

Glad ya caught that, I couldn't resist

All in all, an enjoyable read.

Thanks, glad ya liked it!

Forogt to mention... I LOVED Mr. Clean's appareance in this.

Thanks, I was just surprised people were asking for him to return!

Not trying to play backseat writer (and I love what you've done with Pat), but wouldn't it be more logical to have the symbiote be more like a tween (pre-teen) then a teen?

Well here's the thing, when I say things like "early teenage years," it's just a very generalized sort of simile. The reality is, it's about a 1-year-old alien symbiotic organism, so it's not going to be exactly like any specific human age. To describe it more literally, this is a very young organism who's been bonded to the body and mind of an adult human for maybe about a year. While he's absorbing things like Pat's moral code and general goodness, he also has natural urges toward ultra-violence that he's occassionally even able to act on. He also gets to use the body by himself for an hour or two a night while Pat's asleep, during which time he's watching a lot of TV and playing some video games, and mabye once in awhile going out and exploring the world. He's seen a lot of things by now, but he's still very young and he's still an alien, so many things he still doesn't really understand, and he also has his own violent nature fighting with Pat's morals. So in the end, yeah, I think all of that works out to be a character that thinks and sounds fairly similar to a young teenager. But in certain situations, he's still more infantile, and in others he's more adult. Labeling him as any human age will never be entirely accurate, I just use that to get across an idea of about where he is.

Also, any plans for Gina?

Absolutely. Toxin is an ongoing supporting character in Crawl Space from here on out, so you will definitely see his family, both Gina and little Edward.

Ok, I'm definitely digging this. Even setting aside my noted soft spot for clone stories, this was just a damned fun issue.

Great to hear, thanks!

- I really dug the way you wrote the interaction between Pat and Toxin.

Thanks! Once again, I'm really pleased this character is being so well received. Being only the second writer to ever use him, and loving what Peter Milligan did with him as much as I do, I was just really hoping to not screw him up!

- I never thought I'd say this, but Carlie was pretty badass! And it worked! Congratulations once again on getting me to give a damn about her.

Also glad to see more and more people warming up to Carlie. I absolutely love this character (well, my version anyway), and I maintain anyone that really gets to know her should love her, too!

- Finally, I also agree that your action scenes are improving. Despite the sheer scope of the fights in the issue, not once did I lose track of what was going on, nor was I tempted to skim through the fight.

I really appreciate that, thanks!

Hey, all! I'm new!

Welcome to the Crawl Space! It's always so nice to see people sign up and make their first post here. I really appreciate you taking the time not only to read but to comment!

The first issue was.... quite fun, actually. Rushed, yes, but it was clear that you just wanted to get it out of the way so you could move onto your bigger story plans.

That's all entirely true. I freely admit that is my weakest issue, but I'm glad you had fun with it anyway!

By the way, LOVED the Faceless Man! He was just so cool and creepy - I actually like him better as the Faceless Man than as Gabe Stacy!
Simon was great. I love screwed-up crazy villains with real out-there motives that make you blink. They're fun to write and read. You're all like, "Wait a minute - nothing he's saying makes any sense! This isn't help Peter!" And yet, in his mind, it DOES make sense. It's hard to create these cool, unique villains when mostly everything's been done before, but you've managed with Simon. Yeah, I liked him.
As for Harry as the Goblin King.... well, I'm not too certain about all the added powers, but I like the look and he still sounds like Harry. I'm still waiting on him, in other words.

Glad you're digging the villains! If you don't have great villains, you may as well hang up your hat as a superhero comics writer!

Interesting to see what he's planning with Sarah.... If I recall correctly (never actually read the infamous Clone Saga - too many crossovers for me to keep up), it turned that the Gwen Stacy clone was actually a woman redesigned to look like Gwen and share her memories, correct? Interesting....

Heh, that is one convoluted story. First they revealed that the Jackal didn't actually create clones, he genetically altered regular people to become the people he was "cloning." So at the time, they were saying the Gwen Stacy clone was a real woman who was not Gwen Stacy. Then later, when the 90s Clone Saga happened, they had to go back on that and say they actually were clones, and the whole story about them being genetically altered people was a trick by the High Evolutionary. And please - don't try to make any sense out of that. There's none to be had. The short answer is - the Gwen Stacy clone was just that, a clone of Gwen Stacy and nothing more.

But to clarify, Sarah Stacy has nothing to do with the Gwen clone. She's the daughter of Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn, twin sister of Gabe Stacy and half-sister of Harry Osborn.

Morbius.... Well, I've heard you're obsessed with him, and I respect that, but honestly, I don't see how he fits. We'll see.

You'll start seeing how he fits pretty soon.

Oh, and since when does Norman have a cosmic cube?

Since Spider-Man: Crawl Space #10

Toxin's hilarious. This is my first exposure to him too. Already love him.

Awesome, I can't hear that enough! It's really nice to be able to create new fans for a character I love that no one else is paying any attention to. (Seriously, the guy's only ever appeared in two mini-series, ever. What's up with that?)

Well, that's all. Oh, and just to let you know - despite the very, very mild critical-points, I still loved it. I criticize. It's what I do. Whenever I write something, I expect criticism too. In fact, I get paranoid when people praise me too much and think they're just saying that and secretly hated it. So, yeah. I'm honest. Don't hate me.

Oh absolutely, I understood that and I want nothing but honesty. I really appreciate all your comments and thanks so much for reading!

And Kev, on the note of the COsmic Cube...

Wouldn't Norman have used it by now??

Assuming Harry's guess that he got it while he was running the Thunderbolts is accurate (hint: it is), he really didn't have time. Within Crawl Space continuity, Norman was killed while he was still running the Thunderbolts, circa New Ways to Die, so pretty early on. Norman's the kind to plan something big, not just use a new toy the second he gets it. In this case he kicked it before he could execute whatever plans he might have had for the thing.

[Kevin Cushing]

UPDATE: Well that was fast. The SD.com cover preview is up now!