Crawl Space #6 Discussion Thread

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Post by FSUSpiderFan » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:39 pm

I think there are still 2 more issues in the arc.

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Post by Shadow116 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:43 pm

I thought he said it was the end of the first arc?

If I'm wrong I can delete my last post.
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Post by Janus » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:01 pm

Well Kev, I admit you had me a bit nervous what with the whole Simon reveal and the trite cliche of LONG LOST BROTHER/SISTER OHS NOS.

But damn man, you blew me away with the in-depth research you went through--and more importantly your careful, careful tweaking of the strings of continuity. You didn't just go through Spider-continuity with a hacksaw and chop pieces you didn't like and then replace them with shoddily constructed pieces that were more to your preference, you very carefully crafted realistic and interesting characters and placed them in a very rich and dynamic continuity.

Oh, and despite her not appearing in this issue, this is the most I have ever been able to care about Carlie Cooper since the character was introduced.

Also: That MJ scene in the beginning was perfect. Please initiate a hostile takeover of Marvel--or at least Spider-Man.

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Post by SpiderPlumber » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:43 pm

Hey Kevin - I can't quite sum it up in one thought...
When I think I've got the right "compliment" in mind, something else pops in for me to consider...

I feel as if this entire "Black Spider" series is a runaway train that I'm bound to...exciting as hell, and as much as I'm anticipating each installment to follow, I don't want the damned thing to end. Your writing is SO different from what Marvel has been spitting out for the past 10+ years that I have a hard time verbalizing the impact.

That's it!

Impact.

The characters you've created, the back-stories you've given them...they're all based on the continuity that we all know, and yet, they're so different from what we could ever have expected!

The common thread amongst them all is that they all deliver an impact!

You've written so many things that have made me literally yell out "Holy Shit" that I'd have to re-read every installment to count them...I can't instantly recall them.

Kevin Cushing - C.E.O of "IMPACT COMICS!"

Sounds about right to me.
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Post by Kevin Cushing » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:13 pm

Shadow116 wrote:This whole first arc of Crawlspace feels like quality scripted t.v. to me, and that is very inspiring to me.

Though, now that season 1 of Crawlspace is over what does everyone else think of it as a whole?

In it's entirety, I'd give the Black Spider arc a solid 4.5 black Spider masks out of 5 [smilie=venom.gif]
FSUSpiderFan wrote:I think there are still 2 more issues in the arc.
Shadow116 wrote:I thought he said it was the end of the first arc?

If I'm wrong I can delete my last post.
Don't count me out just yet! #6 was Part 4 of 6 (it may have been confusing that it was a six part story that began in #3 and was directly tied to the two issues before it...I just tend to write a flowing ongoing story). So there are still 2 more parts of Spider-Man Black yet. And I actually think of the first 12 issues as "season 1" of Crawl Space. You'll see when you get there, because #12 definitely ties off a lot of year one and kick starts year two. Then I guess you could call the Annual sort of like a TV movie (think 24: Redemption but without the suck) and #13 begins season two. Though from there things aren't as well defined into 12 issue segments, because it's got to be natural. The first year just fell this way.
Janus wrote:Well Kev, I admit you had me a bit nervous what with the whole Simon reveal and the trite cliche of LONG LOST BROTHER/SISTER OHS NOS.

But damn man, you blew me away with the in-depth research you went through--and more importantly your careful, careful tweaking of the strings of continuity. You didn't just go through Spider-continuity with a hacksaw and chop pieces you didn't like and then replace them with shoddily constructed pieces that were more to your preference, you very carefully crafted realistic and interesting characters and placed them in a very rich and dynamic continuity.
Great to hear! I knew people were going to collectively groan when they read the end of issue 5 (because I would have, too). The stigma is on those kinds of characters for a reason. But I figured if Brubaker could bring Bucky back and make it awesome, then I could do a long lost villainous brother that doesn't suck. That's why I kept trying to tell everybody after #5, "Just hold on 'til next issue and you'll see!" Very glad you stuck with it and it paid off!
Oh, and despite her not appearing in this issue, this is the most I have ever been able to care about Carlie Cooper since the character was introduced.
I love Carlie to death. My Carlie anyway, I still don't feel like they've developed her enough in ASM (at least not in ways I find interesting). I'm very thankful the (at the time) "Brain Trust" gave me such a blank slate character to build up. So never fear, I love writing her. She's not going anywhere. In fact, I think the reason I saw this issue as a weaker one (a sentiment that, thankfully, many of you don't seem to share) was because I just couldn't fit in the supporting cast after page 1. That's my favorite stuff to write. It's nice that you guys like her, too, because I wasn't going to be able to let go of her one way or the other!
Also: That MJ scene in the beginning was perfect. Please initiate a hostile takeover of Marvel--or at least Spider-Man.
Thanks, I had fun with that one!
SpiderPlumber wrote:Hey Kevin - I can't quite sum it up in one thought...
When I think I've got the right "compliment" in mind, something else pops in for me to consider...

I feel as if this entire "Black Spider" series is a runaway train that I'm bound to...exciting as hell, and as much as I'm anticipating each installment to follow, I don't want the damned thing to end. Your writing is SO different from what Marvel has been spitting out for the past 10+ years that I have a hard time verbalizing the impact.

That's it!

Impact.

The characters you've created, the back-stories you've given them...they're all based on the continuity that we all know, and yet, they're so different from what we could ever have expected!

The common thread amongst them all is that they all deliver an impact!

You've written so many things that have made me literally yell out "Holy Shit" that I'd have to re-read every installment to count them...I can't instantly recall them.

Kevin Cushing - C.E.O of "IMPACT COMICS!"

Sounds about right to me.
Thanks so much, SP! I know you were agonizing over the wait for #6, so it's great to hear you weren't disappointed! And I would totally rip off the Impact Comics thing if it wasn't for this :wink:
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Post by Shadow116 » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:52 pm

Thanks for the clarification Kevin, I guess I was just a little confused. At least I know it's not season finale time yet lol, but that means it'll hit some high note cliffhanger, and I love and hate those at the same time.
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Post by ScarletSpider616 » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:39 pm

It took a while to come out but it was a solid issue. Good job Kevin. :D

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Post by Kevin Cushing » Sun Jun 28, 2009 3:49 pm

ScarletSpider616 wrote:It took a while to come out but it was a solid issue. Good job Kevin. :D
Thanks a lot, man, and welcome to the board! [smilie=spidey_cheers.gif]
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Post by SpiderPlumber » Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:37 pm

shitty. I guess that's why "Impact Comics" came to me so quickly...
...anyways, I trust you get the drift of what I was trying to say.
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Post by Kevin Cushing » Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:32 pm

SpiderPlumber wrote:shitty. I guess that's why "Impact Comics" came to me so quickly...
...anyways, I trust you get the drift of what I was trying to say.
Haha, I absolutely do and I appreciate it. I just couldn't resist the punchline :lol:
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Post by insaneJonny » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:45 pm

I was holding off on reviewing this one until I felt better (or at the very least less cranky) but Kev wants to see my opinion and if I'm feeling good enough to go out to the pub for a disco in an hour or so I'm probably good enough to give him a review. (Opens bottle of vodka) Since I'm a lot later then usual apologies if anything I said has been said before and discussed a lot but I'm not reading the discussion thread before I read the issue.

Usual on the fly impressions ensue
Cover: Hmmm, interesting choice. Appears I'm getting a Spidey and Bond cocktail.

Prepage 1 Impressions- I'd hate to start on a negative note Kev and this has absolutely nothing to do with the writing but I can't help but notice there's no previously on CS recap for the very first time, arguably when those of use who are following it regularly need it most, so I'm gonna breeze through no 5 to get my bearings first.

Page 1- I love how you get more mileage out of Carlie in 6 issues then the braintrust have in 54 and counting, and is that hypno hustler reference just for the fans of the podcasts, secondly CC is right, bolding the word 'is' is the only thing that makes that line work.

Page 3- Cute Richard parker chat up line

Page 4- 1. I'll admit I've obviously never been in a position to worry about spies but I've seen enough movies (hell I even used the idea in my first novel attempt) to know if I expect someone's a spy, the fact they have a wife along with them doesn't exonerate them from suspicion in the slightest, after all what's to stop the 'wife' in fact being another undercover agent who isn't actually married to the guy?

2. Cute next room gag, but something that comes to mind is that Simon is narrating these events really well for someone that was a sperm at the time.

3. 'I adore you' for some reason this reminds me of the that 70's show were eric can't bring himself to tell Donna he loves her, and it pretty much gives me an idea of what's gonna happen next

Page 5- I'm curious of who/what this red skull is and how far is influence goes, particularly if his spies can uncover that about him but he's not the original.

And very grim orders from red skull

Page 8- Kay if richard and may die then I'm really confused how Simon knows the details of the night he was concieved.

Page 9- I have a natural dislike of coincidences in comics so I'm hoping there's a lot more then 'Simon just happens to find a picture of peter'

Page 10- New project? hurrah it isn't just a coincidence

Page 11- Nice montage with simon following Petes life

Page 12- Again it's been so long since the last issue I forgot about who commissioned the hit on may

Page 13- I'm very interested how these red skull spies are getting all these pictures of everything happening in peters life, in particular bens death and mary jane crying after the baby,

Page 14- Damn, I'm disappointed we already know the 2 people who remember BND.

Page 15- Jesus christ you make OMD a really good part of someone motivations, well played Kev, well played

Page 16- I'd better find out more stuff about this clad black man kev

Page 17- Hmmm, mixing mechanical engineering with magical problems doesn't really sit well with me, but given a recent quote by Hank Pym in Mighty Avengers 'Magic is just science I haven't explained yet' I suppose I can live with it

And...is it supposed to read 'Might you available for a job when I get out?' or are you missing a word there?

Page 19- Ha, brilliant 'up yours' to BND

Page 20- Ha, nice mephisto joke,

Page 21- Nice Revenge of the goblin reference

2....what the ****, now I'm gripped, I must know who this man is? Do we know him?

Now I'm running late for the pub kev so I'm gonna hold off on my final thoughts before I get going but I just want to say don't let amount of 'nit-picking' here get to you in anyway, none of them are particularly huge and I can find "fault" ( if anything, there's always the chance I'm a dumb moron and don't pick up on the finer details) the sign of something good is when it engrosses me that I don't care about all those little things (in comparison with something like heroes which is so god damn boring that all the nit-pickings stand out because I'm not enjoying the damn show anyway) so I enjoyed this and I want to read the next part, final in depth thoughts to follow tonight or tomorrow depending on how much alcohol I have now.

I'll be back after a few beers and some bad dancing to Justin Timberlake
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Post by Kevin Cushing » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:07 pm

Thanks Jonny, it made my day to see your review up! Love these lengthy, in depth ones! I live for them!
insaneJonny wrote:Prepage 1 Impressions- I'd hate to start on a negative note Kev and this has absolutely nothing to do with the writing but I can't help but notice there's no previously on CS recap for the very first time, arguably when those of use who are following it regularly need it most, so I'm gonna breeze through no 5 to get my bearings first.
I didn't include a recap on this one because it's not really dealing with a lot of the ongoing plot threads (at least, not in a way that requires previous knowledge of them). I figured since it's 99% a self contained flashback told in linear narrative people would get everything they needed within the issue. Let me know what you thought of this after finishing. If people feel it needs a recap, I'd be happy to add one.
Page 1- I love how you get more mileage out of Carlie in 6 issues then the braintrust have in 54 and counting,
Funny to hear from an issue that doesn't even include her. Thanks!
and is that hypno hustler reference just for the fans of the podcasts,
Nah, you know I like a good funny reference. Seemed like the right one for the moment.
Page 4- 1. I'll admit I've obviously never been in a position to worry about spies but I've seen enough movies (hell I even used the idea in my first novel attempt) to know if I expect someone's a spy, the fact they have a wife along with them doesn't exonerate them from suspicion in the slightest, after all what's to stop the 'wife' in fact being another undercover agent who isn't actually married to the guy?
No, it definitely doesn't exonerate them, but the idea is that a lone man is much more suspicious.
2. Cute next room gag, but something that comes to mind is that Simon is narrating these events really well for someone that was a sperm at the time.
In one of the many iterations of this script I had Simon giving a line about, "Of course, this is all things I was told and have inferred between the lines" before it gets to the part where his memories would start, but it felt really obvious and like I was talking down to the reader, so I removed it.
Page 5- I'm curious of who/what this red skull is and how far is influence goes, particularly if his spies can uncover that about him but he's not the original.
I'm not sure I understand the question, but if you're not familiar with him, I did not create Albert Malik. He was a Red Skull imposter and is, in fact, the Red Skull that killed the Parkers in Marvel canon. I made up very little of the stuff involving him.
Page 8- Kay if richard and may die then I'm really confused how Simon knows the details of the night he was concieved.
The narration was what Simon was telling Peter, but the images (and dialogue in them) were actual flashback panels. Sorry if I didn't get that across well enough. I think it's clarrified a little better later in the issue when some of the panels don't match what Simon is saying. This probably would have worked better with art, but that's just a shortcoming of my not being able to have art.
Page 12- Again it's been so long since the last issue I forgot about who commissioned the hit on may
The Faceless Man, who its been established was working for the Black Spider, hired Killshot to take out May. Maybe I should put a recap on this.
Page 13- I'm very interested how these red skull spies are getting all these pictures of everything happening in peters life, in particular bens death and mary jane crying after the baby,
This was another instance of me removing exposition that felt like I was talking down to you. The Red Skull had people following Peter and his friends and family from a distance to get these pictures. It would be very easy for someone to be at the crime scene when Uncle Ben was killed and snap a picture if they were already on Peter (because the Red Skull knew Peter was Simon's brother). It wouldn't take much for a well trained spy to impersonate an orderly or something and snap a cell phone shot of MJ in the hospital, either. And while you may say cell phone cameras weren't prevalent at the time, with the sliding timeline of comics they would have been.
Page 14- Damn, I'm disappointed we already know the 2 people who remember BND.
And here I had expected people to complain that nothing was going on with that mystery months ago. How different CS is from BND!
Page 15- Jesus christ you make OMD a really good part of someone motivations, well played Kev, well played
Thanks man! I know it's not a way Marvel would ever handle it, but it seemed logical to me.
Page 16- I'd better find out more stuff about this clad black man kev
Identity revealed in part 6 (issue 8) but his story is later in year two. I wasn't originally going to introduce the character so early, but I needed someone to fill that role in this story and once I thought about it, it was all really logical. And because I wasn't going to introduce the character so early, I was originally just going to leave him a mystery until his original entry point, but I decided that'd be kind of a dick move. So, identity in #8 with a slight tease of what's to come for him.
Page 17- Hmmm, mixing mechanical engineering with magical problems doesn't really sit well with me, but given a recent quote by Hank Pym in Mighty Avengers 'Magic is just science I haven't explained yet' I suppose I can live with it
Yeah, magic is so unexplained it can be taken a lot of different ways. To me, magic can make use of science. So if Mephisto's spell altered people's memories, I would imagine it would do so in a way that worked with the biology of the brain. So if someone rebooted your brain and reconnected those pathways, that should destroy the effects of the spell. But that's just my interpretation. I mean, it's magic. Somebody has to explain it.
And...is it supposed to read 'Might you available for a job when I get out?' or are you missing a word there?
*Sigh* I can proofread until my eyes bleed, but things will still slip through. Fixed!
Page 21- Nice Revenge of the goblin reference
Nice to know somebody knew where that was from!
2....what the ****, now I'm gripped, I must know who this man is? Do we know him?
I'm not going to say one way or the other on that. Really, I never wanted his identity to be a big central mystery of the story. I wrestled with whether to even put him in since there were already two mystery identities in this arc and that stuff can get cheesy. But he was necessary. The real mystery will come when you find out his identity and want to know what his motives were here and what he's got planned for the future. But more than that I'm not going to say. Check out #8!
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Post by insaneJonny » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:17 pm

Touche Kev, and I was well aware most of my little 'nits' could be explained away with a line of dialogue of exposition here or there which is a credit to you, there's a huge artistic fault in last weeks X-factor which I can't explain without seriously contradicting the story arc (which made emailing their new letters page starting next issue for a no-prize a pain in the back side)

And as for the magic thing, I guess I feel like Spidey in Happy Birthday when he remarked 'sometimes you don't wanna mess up the others engine' when comparing science and magic.

Again final thoughts coming tomorrow, I don't think I can muster an in-depth thought after as many beers as I've had tonight.
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Post by insaneJonny » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:05 am

Final thoughts: Firstly before I begin I feel I should clarify- I know nothing about the red skull not established in the first 25 issues of Brubaker's captain america and I know even less about Peters parents (never even read life-theft)

Still some final observations:

Reading this I feel this would be the perfect story for Deodatos pencils. I know you said in your past you see your script in JRJR's pencils when you write but to me you clearly focus more on character moments then action (not that you don't do action obviously but you obviously prefer the character driven moments) that I see your scripts, this one more then anyone that came before it, in deodatos pencils.

This brought on more so by the way you write your pages, only once this month exceeding 5 to a page (Which is probably the mode average these days I'd say, not that this a criticism, unless you think me saying I wouldn't mind more of your writing a criticism) which makes me imagine big beautiful deodato pencils full of anger, in particular Simons scenes conveying Peters emotion.

Also I could be wrong here, but I don't think you've ever had anything involving double page usage (e.g a spread) in CS in the 6 and a half issues you've put out, is this a general dislike of them or more the fact that the format of CS pretty much renders the concept void?

The actual story as a whole was very enjoyable as always, the scope of what you're trying nearly unparalleled in the history of spider-man comics (I daresay only Sins Past or the clone saga come close in terms of rocking the very foundations of spider-mans world) and you accomplish what you set out to do with gusto. Just I don't mean to be rude but I'd prefer issue 7 sooner rather then later :wink:

Finally; is the fact that you allow swearing in this forum basically only so we can say 'holy shit' or 'what the fuck' whenever you throw a twist at us :wink:
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Post by Kevin Cushing » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:14 am

insaneJonny wrote:Final thoughts: Firstly before I begin I feel I should clarify- I know nothing about the red skull not established in the first 25 issues of Brubaker's captain america and I know even less about Peters parents (never even read life-theft)
Don't read Life-Theft. I mean, weird Cameleony robots? Really? That story has no bearing on Peter's actual parents whatsoever, so don't give it a second thought.

As for Malik and the elder Parkers, was there anything in the story you didn't understand from not having prior knowledge of them? I tried to put as much as was necessary into the issue for people to understand the story being told without just going into a history lesson for the sake of it. But I know I can always improve, so if I missed the mark on that first goal let me know so I can do better next time.
Reading this I feel this would be the perfect story for Deodatos pencils. I know you said in your past you see your script in JRJR's pencils when you write but to me you clearly focus more on character moments then action (not that you don't do action obviously but you obviously prefer the character driven moments) that I see your scripts, this one more then anyone that came before it, in deodatos pencils.
I think (I could be wrong) I said I see different parts in JRjr's pencils and others in Deodato's. I said that about issue 1, but as I've gone along it's been more and more just Deodato. You're absolutely correct in your analysis that I write character over action every time, and I would love to see Deodato's work on one of my scripts someday. That would pretty much be the height of my dreams coming true.
Also I could be wrong here, but I don't think you've ever had anything involving double page usage (e.g a spread) in CS in the 6 and a half issues you've put out, is this a general dislike of them or more the fact that the format of CS pretty much renders the concept void?
Well I think it would make you feel kind of cheated when reading CS, but I do have somewhat of a genral dislike of them. Full page splashes are great for certain moments (you'll notice I use them for a lot of last pages, because in most cases - not all - your final image should be strong enough to merit a full page). There are definitely those utterly huge visual moments that do merit two page spreads, but I don't think they occur nearly as often as some writers seem to think they do. I can almost guarantee you'll never see an issue from me that's got a bunch of two page splashes, and that goes for any professional career I may one day achieve as well.
The actual story as a whole was very enjoyable as always, the scope of what you're trying nearly unparalleled in the history of spider-man comics (I daresay only Sins Past or the clone saga come close in terms of rocking the very foundations of spider-mans world) and you accomplish what you set out to do with gusto.
Thanks man! I know this is a very controversial road to go down, so I'm really glad to hear so many people are enjoying it!
Just I don't mean to be rude but I'd prefer issue 7 sooner rather then later :wink:
That's my goal! I never know when I might be side swiped by something I never saw coming in my life so I won't promise, but I don't foresee any more waits in the life of this series nearly as long as the wait for issue 6. I'm working away on #7 already!
Finally; is the fact that you allow swearing in this forum basically only so we can say 'holy shit' or 'what the fuck' whenever you throw a twist at us :wink:
Heh, the rule about language is really just to prevent/tone down flame wars, so I don't think it's necessary in this forum. I haven't seen anybody ready to tear each others' eyes out over a CS issue yet!
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