Crawl Space #5 Discussion Thread

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Crawl Space #5 Discussion Thread

Post by Kevin Cushing » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:00 am

Bet ya didn't see that one coming, eh? And I fully realize some of you might be reaching for your shotguns and looking up my address, but hopefully you'll feel better about it after the origin story next issue. But hey, that was just the last page, there are a whole 22 to talk about. Please, please, please let me know what you thought!

And if you haven't read the issue yet - run before you get spoiled!
Last edited by Kevin Cushing on Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Shadow116 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:31 am

That was freakin' sweet Kev!

The two new baddies got plenty of face time, decent flashbacks, more Menken and Oscorp. Not to mention your actually still advancing subplots.

Great twist, the story flowed well, little choppy on dialogue, but that was only minimal.

All in all... 5 Black Spider masks out of 5.

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Post by Lockdown » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:07 am

Kevin, you magnificiant bastard! I solute you. Great work. you had my jaw hit the ground on that one.

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Post by SpideySteUK » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:49 am

Please excuse my swearing BUT HOLY SHIT!!!!, that was so awesome. I cant wait to see more!!!!

5 out of 5 perfect and throughly enjoyable.

As for the Bugle i'm kinda already guessing how the Bugle gets rid of the debt and It involves Peter and Oscorp thats my theory but Kev u can hit me if im right lol
Kevin Cushing's Crawl Space is better than Amazing FACT!!!!!!!

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I don’t know if Peter Parker was the best marvel character to be married, and I understand both sides of the argument. When his marriage with MJ worked, it worked very well, but sometimes it seemed like people didn’t know what to do with MJ. Way too often MJ would be relegated to hostage or obstacle. Too seldom did she play the role of supporter, friend or nurturer. I thought it was possible to do all of that, and maybe it’s a cheap shot, but I took it.

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Post by insaneJonny » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:45 am

Ah, perfect cure for the sunday morning hangover. the go impressions as always.

Page 1- Hmmmm Sarah, tres interesting.

Page 3-As messed up as it is, I approve of Grey Goblin permanently being Grey Goblin.

Page 5-Hmm,could the bugle rebuilding be funded by a
► Show Spoiler
Page 6- Nice dialogue between MJ and Carlie.

Page 8- Hmmm, evil Norman being a bad parent, fun to read.

Page 9 - Ah a nice trip down memory lane.

Page 10- Too lazy to check my issue of 514 but should that not be "they both were" in the last panel for Normans dialogue

Page 12- So it was Sarahs fault Gabe lost his good looks

Page 15-Ah, what is about wild cards that is so very fun to write?

Page 16- Part of me thinks that stuff happened too quickly, in the space of 3 panels Harry found Gabe and Spidey just happened to find them both, maybe black spider tipped them both as to where the body was? Something just doesn't sit quite right with me here.

Also, something that was unclear in the panels, panel 4 makes the point that Goblin King and Spider-man were landing, presumably from being punched off the glider, but Panel 1 said Goblin King was walking up to Gabe, something hard to do when you're on a glider. Also panel 5 mentions Harry returning to his previously unreferenced glider (In fact I initially thought it was Gabes Glider he ran to)

Obviously this is something that would be sorted out in back and forth contact between the artist if you were getting artwork back on this so don't make too much of it, just a short coming of the format, and sorry for being such an anal retentive bastard but if I can't scrutinize your work like I do the like of Heroes or other comics then I'm not doing my job.

Page 17- hehe "Well, I do appreciate someone making the decision of which one of you to deal with for me."

Interesting, does Gabe feel guilty and is taking responsibility for the actions of the faceless man? Did he learn humility in his memory restored? Or he is just that insanely angry at Black Spider?

Page 18- "Spidey is Screaming" "Spidey is confused"...I'm curious how you'd imagine the artist to convey these that short of having Spidey shrug in costume?

"This man you would kill" page 22 can't come soon enough.

Page 20- Er, what is "Irish features" besides an overfondness for drinking?

Page 22- I think I just simultaneously threw up a little in my mouth and had a minor heart attack. Giving us that ending and leaving us unable to swear on the board is a form of cruel and unusual punishment.

Hilarious thing is, there was a massive clue there all along, brother spider anyone? I suppose that was your way of giving us a chance in hell of guessing who it was right Kev?

Overoll thoughts, other then some nitpicking (which you expect from me and was more about spelling and layouts then anything else) I'd say this was the best issue yet, but as someone who loved sins past it was a given i'd be open to this swing from left field. Still I'm really unbelivably interested in where you take this. Like you can't introduce Peter's ******* brother and kill him off anytime soon can you? Well considering the body count so far with CS who knows?

It's gonna be a long 28 days, better just go hibernate for a while.

Sorry for the essay of a review, just talking comics makes the hangover more bearable.
Last edited by insaneJonny on Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BtmxComedy » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:22 am

Spider-man: Crawl Space #5 (A BTMX Review)


PLOT: read it for free on the site

LIKES
-Powerful flashback sequence for Gabriel. Well done.
-Maintainance of continuity with JJJ and teasing future ramifications of the Daily Bugle blast to come.
-CARLIE!!! CARLIE!!! CARLIE!!! OK I've calmed down. I really liked the conversation between MJ and Carlie it explained a lot. At first I was almost entirely thrown off when MJ was so brutally honest with Carlie. However Carlie didn't make such a huge deal about it and it seems that although given the very short time they have been friends, they are already THAT good of friends. That is MJ can already share why she was alright with Carlie although the answer isn't extremely pleasant, because they are so far past that now. I notice conversations with Carlie always seem explicit (like everyone always seems to say exactly what they mean) but that's just misleading because although the text is to the point, there's still a lot of subtext.
-OK this is still about Carlie but I'm giving it a separate point. This issue cemented Carlie's role in the Crawl Space. Before she was the bizarre girl tagging along on double dates with her very recent ex-boyfriend, while that strangely worked it didn't place Carlie on a firm foundation. As MJ's good friend (and its about time MJ had some friends) Carlie fills a niche, which is a good thing because Carlie is awesome.


DISLIKES

- Harry wasn't his typically terrifying badass self in this issue, by absence rather than faulty characterization. I would comment on what the heck Harry Osborn said in the first two panels of the issue but I don't know what to think. Is Harry is/pretending to be an Agent and getting Interpol on Gray's trail? I'm confused about what is going on with that.
-Gabriel's flashback sequence. Yes I know this is a bit confusing because I just placed it in the likes section as well. What I said in the likes section is that it was POWERFUL and it was. A solid piece of writing but an inalienable fact remains...I don't care THAT much about the Gray Goblin. It wasn't so much that I didn't like reading it as I felt it was taking up too many precious pages from aspects of the story that I would have preferred reading.
-Speaking of flashback. What the heck is going on between the Gray Goblin and his sister? I need to re-read Sins Remembered, I don't recall that sort of relationship between them at all. Additional flashbacks are probably going to be necessary later to explain the immense hatred and tension.
-The cover makes no sense to me. I knew who the Faceless man was last issue. I found out who the Black Spider is this issue. I guess revealed is taken to mean "finding out the origin of" and if that's the case, it makes sense now. However I was thrown off and confused and in addition if this comic was going on the marketplace...selling it on the Black Spider would probably have done it better than selling it on the Faceless man.
-Next point...WHAT THE FREAKING HELL IS WRONG WITH KEVIN. THAT IS THE BLACK SPIDER'S IDENTITY?! REALLY?! (Gets out pitchfork)
So so so so many bad vibes about this. That was really out of left field and unnecessary. My experience with badly plotted shock storylines that murder any semblance of good internally consistent meaningful storytelling...such as this appears on the surface of leading to... has trained me to wrap myself in a protective bubble of conservatism and cynicism and I will not emerge from it without coxing from a surprisingly and shockingly good story. I don't know if its coming...I want to give the benefit of the doubt...Ah, just in case, does anyone want to start a free online comic that follows Kevin's universe but diverges at the point where Black Spider takes off his mask? ... Anybody?


RATING:

The most controversial event since the concept of ever starting this series. The Black Spider's identity is inflaming my mind...but as we know nothing yet I will suspend the wrath of ignorance that would have murdered this issue's rating.

Ignoring the Black Spider's identity, we got some good side plot stuff with JJJ and Carlie and MJ. We got a stronger sense of what a crazy ***** the Black Spider is when he ordered the mask sewn to Gray's face. However we were robbed of crazy **** antics by Harry Osborn. Most of all we got Gray Goblin's origin which will make fans of the character very very happy, but for those like me... relatively indifferent

A good issue...but it was all about the Gray Goblin... and although I'm not disliking him as much as I used to, I'm still not a fan.


4 webheads out of 5

3 for the vast majority of the issue and another 1 for bringing back Carlie and putting her in her rightful place.
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Post by ditko_loves_green77 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:23 pm

Haven't done this for Crawl Space yet but I'm gonna give it a go

SPIDER-MAN CRAWL SPACE #5
WRITER: Kevin Cushing
COVER ARTIST: Scott Larson

PLOT: Check it out on the site. It's recession free!

LIKES:
-The Gabriel flashback scenes
-Oscorp becoming useful
-The cover

DISLIKES
-The reveal (I'll get into this below)
-No Clean Man!

THOUGHTS
Okay, this was a well written issue. I loved it, in fact. It pushed the plot further, it brought back points from previous issues. We saw some things out of the super hero world. All of the Gabriel scenes were effective and I'm glad about his reaction. Of course he isn't happy. Returning his memory wouldn't change that.

HOWEVER, I didn't like this issue as much as the other four. Believe it or not, I have reveal fatigue. Personally, I would have liked some more time with the Black Spider, with clues so we can make guesses and the joy of finding out if we're right or not. And if we're wrong, we like seeing the explanation. Now, after reading Kevin's work for four issues now, I'm certain he will explain it. There aren't any plot holes in anything so far, so why would he create one now? I would have liked the mystery to have a little bit longer, but isn't a major gripe.

Now for the reveal. It's very sudden and I'm going to have to read the back issues to find any clues. There's not much I can say about it right now and I'll have to see where it goes. Peter's brother?!

It needs time to digest.

OVERALL
3.5 out of 5 webheads.

Hey, it probably sounds like I'm complaining. I'm sorry, I don't mean it to be like that. It was still a great issue. Looking forward to the next one!

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Post by Bevie » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:54 pm

This was a roller coaster ride indeed!

First, you actually made me feel sorry for Gabe! And nauseous. Sewing on people really makes my tummy queasy. And I never liked him in the first place. Does Gabe have healing power now like Wolvie?

Liked MJ and Carlie's little chat.

Geez! You know, I can't remember when Gabriel was ever nice to Peter before. I suppose it could have been, but I guess I must have submerged the memory as I was never enamoured of the twins previously.

Hopefully Pete can help Jonah out with the Bugle now that he can use the means of Oscorp.

Boy, you really did it! Knocked me for a loop with that brother stuff. Not sure how I feel about that. I was guessing to myself that perhaps Black Spider was Kaine. I miss Kaine. And where did the red hair come from? LOL

Have to say, can't wait for the next issue. You put my head in a spin. [smilie=spidey_rolling.gif]

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Post by bdog » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:14 pm

Pure awesomness!!!!

It was just so cool.

1) great twist at the end...

2) I hope the brother Peter relationship, turns into something great...

3) Any spoilers for next issue?

4) Oh I actually really like the dialogue great job...
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Simon Says...

Post by aspman » Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:16 pm

Kev!

You hit another one out of the ball park! I did not see that coming! Why Marvel isn't paying you, I do not know, you should be writing Amazing Spider-man. Love the story and keep the surprises coming. Been reading Spidey since 1973.

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Post by matisleonhart » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:19 pm

Have I told you what a genius you are before? seriously, your a genius!!!
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Re: Simon Says...

Post by Kevin Cushing » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:42 pm

We're doing great on views so far this month! Already near 100 in less than 24 hours! Now to answer some posts (and thank you all so much for chiming in!).
Shadow116 wrote:All in all... 5 Black Spider masks out of 5.
Lockdown wrote:Kevin, you magnificiant bastard! I solute you. Great work. you had my jaw hit the ground on that one.
SpideySteUK wrote:5 out of 5 perfect and throughly enjoyable.
Hot damn, thanks guys! I was worried about the reception of this issue, so seeing those as the first three posts really made me feel good.
insaneJonny wrote:Page 3-As messed up as it is, I approve of Grey Goblin permanently being Grey Goblin.
Ha, awesome! I thought it would be very interesting for somebody to have the goblin mask as their only face, especially one who's having mixed feelings now about what side he's on.
Page 10- Too lazy to check my issue of 514 but should that not be "they both were" in the last panel for Normans dialogue
Damn I'm glad you're here to catch the errors that spell check and a personal read through don't! "Bother" doesn't even make any freakin' sense...edited!
Page 16- Part of me thinks that stuff happened too quickly, in the space of 3 panels Harry found Gabe and Spidey just happened to find them both, maybe black spider tipped them both as to where the body was? Something just doesn't sit quite right with me here.
Yeah I can definitely see how it looked that way. As Harry goes I was hoping it would be fairly obvious that some time had passed before Harry found him, since the Black Spider and his friend were nowhere around. For Spidey, I figure we've all just seen enough scenes of him swinging through the city, seeing something going down, and going in that I didn't even need to write the scene, you guys could fill it in for yourselves. Those type of scenes are pretty old by now.
Also, something that was unclear in the panels, panel 4 makes the point that Goblin King and Spider-man were landing, presumably from being punched off the glider,
Well we know that the Goblin King "walked" up to Gabe, and the panel before it says that Spidey tackled him while flying through the air, so they're landing from the tackle.
Interesting, does Gabe feel guilty and is taking responsibility for the actions of the faceless man? Did he learn humility in his memory restored? Or he is just that insanely angry at Black Spider?
Well we've never seen a Gabe that knows the truth about his parentage and who killed his mother when he's sane. As soon as he found all this out, he took the goblin formula and went bat%*&^ crazy. So for the first time we're seeing how he looks at things with a little distance from the reveal and with his sanity. That and his time as the Faceless Man when he started to question what kind of a person he wanted to be is still in play even though he got his memories back, it didn't just reset him. I'll be going a lot more into how all that affects his character, but needless to say this is a different Grey Goblin than we've seen before.
Page 18- "Spidey is Screaming" "Spidey is confused"...I'm curious how you'd imagine the artist to convey these that short of having Spidey shrug in costume?
Lots of artists (or really, all of them) show emotion on Spidey's mask even though it wouldn't happen in real life. I'm just giving direction for that (especially in the shape of the eyes).
Page 20- Er, what is "Irish features" besides an overfondness for drinking?
All nationalities have defining features, it's just a direction for the artist to know what kind of a face to draw. If I was really writing for an artist I would have noted a family resemblance to Peter Parker, but I didn't want to blow the reveal for you guys right there in the panel description.
Hilarious thing is, there was a massive clue there all along, brother spider anyone? I suppose that was your way of giving us a chance in hell of guessing who it was right Kev?
Heh, yep. I pretty much came right out and said it last issue but it was almost impossible for anyone to call that.
Like you can't introduce Peter's ******* brother and kill him off anytime soon can you? Well considering the body count so far with CS who knows?
Bwahahaha!
Sorry for the essay of a review, just talking comics makes the hangover more bearable.
Dude, I pretty much live on reviews for the couple of days after an issue goes up. The longer and more in depth the better!
BtmxComedy wrote:-CARLIE!!! CARLIE!!! CARLIE!!! OK I've calmed down.
I really love that you love her so much now :mrgreen:
I would comment on what the heck Harry Osborn said in the first two panels of the issue but I don't know what to think. Is Harry is/pretending to be an Agent and getting Interpol on Gray's trail? I'm confused about what is going on with that.
Well the important thing to realize is that we cut away from that scene when the important part was over, not when the call was over. He was letting Sarah know where Gabe was. Perhaps he just wants her there...
What the heck is going on between the Gray Goblin and his sister? I need to re-read Sins Remembered, I don't recall that sort of relationship between them at all.
Oh hell, don't do that to yourself, it's not worth it! Terrible, terrible story and the fact that I reread it is enough torture for the whole world. And you don't need it. The only two panels that took place during that story were when Gabe and Sarah were sitting on the bed in the spare room together (not because anything like Ultimate Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver was going on, just because in that storyline she had him chained to a bed in a small room and he wasn't wearing a shirt, that's all). The panels where she's part of Interpol and he attacks and whatnot are things I made up that take place after that story.
-The cover makes no sense to me. I knew who the Faceless man was last issue. I found out who the Black Spider is this issue. I guess revealed is taken to mean "finding out the origin of" and if that's the case, it makes sense now. However I was thrown off and confused and in addition if this comic was going on the marketplace...selling it on the Black Spider would probably have done it better than selling it on the Faceless man.
Well Scott came up with the cover not me, but I think it's good to have it about Gabe because he's what most of the issue is about. If you make the cover all about the reveal of the Black Spider, it's pretty cheap when you "open up" the issue and 9/10 of it is about Gabe.
-Next point...WHAT THE FREAKING HELL IS WRONG WITH KEVIN. THAT IS THE BLACK SPIDER'S IDENTITY?! REALLY?! (Gets out pitchfork)
So so so so many bad vibes about this. That was really out of left field and unnecessary. My experience with badly plotted shock storylines that murder any semblance of good internally consistent meaningful storytelling...such as this appears on the surface of leading to... has trained me to wrap myself in a protective bubble of conservatism and cynicism and I will not emerge from it without coxing from a surprisingly and shockingly good story. I don't know if its coming...I want to give the benefit of the doubt...
Hey man, I totally understand feeling that way. In fact, I entirely expected it. It's unfortunate I'm doing this in fan fiction and not in a real comic because that makes it look all the more "fan fictiony." But I assure you this is something I've had fully thought out for years and always intended to do if I ever got the creative reins of the comic (though I more recently realized I'd never be allowed to even if I ever get to that point). Things like long lost brothers are certainly usually cheesy as all hell and I knew that stigma was going to come with this. But quite honestly when the story first came to me it made so much sense I was surprised no one had done it before. Part 4 will be devoted entirely to filling in his backstory, so all I ask is that you give that a read before deciding if this is just a bad fan fiction move. I think you'll like it and come to realize, as I did, that this makes all the sense in the world.
ditko_loves_green77 wrote:Believe it or not, I have reveal fatigue.
I get that. Identities was kind of what this story was always about, though. I originally titled it "Face of the Enemy" because it was so much about that. But it's really just a part of this story, that kind of thing isn't going to be all the time. The so-called "black clad man" in this issue is very minor to this arc and who he is will be revealed in part 6, but that's the last mystery character I have planned for awhile, and like I said he's pretty much tangential to this story. I just needed him there briefly and I didn't want to have him just drop in. The "reveal" in part 6 is more of a small tease for a big story in 2010.
Now for the reveal. It's very sudden and I'm going to have to read the back issues to find any clues.
The suddenness is very intentional. The Black Spider planned it this way to knock Peter on his ass, and the way I did it was to basically give the reader the same feeling. Seems like it worked...

As for clues, there just weren't a lot I could give on this that would lead you anywhere and not blow it. So really the only two I gave were his "brother spider" line and the fact that he's African.
Bevie wrote:Does Gabe have healing power now like Wolvie?
Well the goblin formula does give healing abilities, and as you saw quoted in this issue (originally in Amazing #514) Norman told Gabe that he'd be more powerful than he ever was at the height of his abilities. We never got any definition on how good Gabe's healing was exactly, but I think it would be pretty damn good. Not quite Wolverine level, but still fairly rapid. Definitely better than someone like Spider-Man, who heals faster than normal people but not incredibly fast.
Geez! You know, I can't remember when Gabriel was ever nice to Peter before. I suppose it could have been, but I guess I must have submerged the memory as I was never enamoured of the twins previously.
No, as I said above we've never seen Gabe like this before. First he was furiously bitter at Peter because he thought he was their deadbeat Dad and that he'd killed their mother, and then after that he was totally insane. His character is going through a lot of changes right now, and I don't think even he knows where he's going to land. Right now all he knows is that he wants to kill the Black Spider, and he regrets the things he did for him.
I miss Kaine.
I'd keep reading Crawl Space, personally. For whatever that's worth 8)
And where did the red hair come from? LOL
Their mother, Mary Fitzpatrick by birth, had redish hair at least in some art. Coming from Irish heritage, I thought him getting the red hair gene would be a good feature to set him apart from Peter.
Have to say, can't wait for the next issue. You put my head in a spin.
Excellent! I would certainly hate to let you down, and I'm glad you liked this issue even though it threw you for a loop at the end.
bdog wrote:1) great twist at the end...
Somebody liked it! Somebody liked it! [smilie=spidey_clap.gif]
3) Any spoilers for next issue?
The coolest thing I can tell you about it was already in the "Next Month" box - it's titled "Richard and Mary Parker: Agents of SHIELD." Such an awesome, rarely used time in history. The issue'll be mostly in flashback, so you'll get to see me dance around the original material written by Stan quite a bit. A couple of those 100+ comics I bought for Crawl Space research were Amazing Spider-Man Annual #5, Untold Tales # -1, and Amazing Spider-Man #366-367, so rest assured I've put in my research for this task.
4) Oh I actually really like the dialogue great job...
Thanks man, I appreciate that! I can see where some would see it as choppy, though, because the flashback sequence would come across a lot better with a great artist framing all the transitions than it does in a script.
aspman wrote:Kev!

You hit another one out of the ball park! I did not see that coming! Why Marvel isn't paying you, I do not know, you should be writing Amazing Spider-man. Love the story and keep the surprises coming. Been reading Spidey since 1973.

Aspman
Thanks aspman! It really does feel damn good to be able to offer continued Spidey entertainment for somebody that's been reading for 35 years. Makes my head spin. Thanks for saying that!
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"The ground quakes and the heavens cry tears of blood when Kevin gives out his brand of Crawlspace justice. Babies cry, grown men avert their eyes, women pass out and even the wind gives pause. Kevin’s eyes glow and lightning crackles around them. It’s pretty epic and definitely not for the timid." - Michael Bailey

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Post by Kevin Cushing » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:45 pm

matisleonhart wrote:Have I told you what a genius you are before? seriously, your a genius!!!
Haha, thanks dude! Definitely nice to have a few people not out for my head after that reveal :lol:
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"The ground quakes and the heavens cry tears of blood when Kevin gives out his brand of Crawlspace justice. Babies cry, grown men avert their eyes, women pass out and even the wind gives pause. Kevin’s eyes glow and lightning crackles around them. It’s pretty epic and definitely not for the timid." - Michael Bailey

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Post by Shadow116 » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:04 pm

Yeah, at least some of us won't try to kill you...

Again, great job, honestly Kev this is my favorite CS issue yet. I got my Goblin fix, Black Spider is still intriguing as hell and has my head spinning, and I'm still so freakin' excited I just read it again!
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Post by BtmxComedy » Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:44 pm

So this is the part where I add 5 inches of comics to my carpet everywhere in my room and try to figure out what this could all be about.

I'm probably going to start with ASM Annual...3 or 4...it was one of those.


I really don't know about this brother storyline but I'm starting to realize how much trust has to do with everything. For instance if Marvel pulled it off right now I probably would have no hope whatsoever that things won't go into the gutter... since its Kevin who has proved me wrong about what I think I'm going to like several times now, my gut reaction when I first read the issue doesn't stop me from saying now

"alright lets bring it on"

Doesn't mean I'm joining the Black Spider fan club, but I'm not starting the ANTI Greek House for it.


So let's see...where does Black Spider fit in...
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