Crawl Space #3 Discussion Thread

[insaneJonny]

Well its because marvel never ever mention the clone saga (and i agree that is a stupid stupid thing) that is stands out that you do.

Oh and keeping with everyones guesses for the faceless man, my first guess was gaunt, however when i get home tomorrow i'm making a list of every possible suspect from my dk ultimate spider-man guide

[Kevin Cushing]

Oh and keeping with everyones guesses for the faceless man, my first guess was gaunt, however when i get home tomorrow i'm making a list of every possible suspect from my dk ultimate spider-man guide

I'm definitely finding all the guesses interesting. It drives me crazy sometimes to not make any response to them, but I still love seeing them. So I look forward to your list!

[Shadow116]

Well, I for one am not going to injure my brain trying to uncover the Faceless Man mystery lol. Better to save myself some pain.

But I do have a few theories about this Black Spider.....

All in all Kev has given us two mysterious villains for the price of one mystery villain (or one bad mystery *Jackpot* *cough*) .
What more can we ask for?

[stillanerd]

I've addressed this before, but I made a decision not to wrap up or even acknowledge the many BND subplots, because those are their stories and I have no knowledge of how they're going to end. This book, to me, would be pointless if we were working on the same concepts. And mine would probably end up inferior since they have the map of how all the pieces fit and how all the mysteries work out, and I'd be flailing in the dark trying to piece together their clues in a coherant way. So yes, this was a cheat, but it was the only way to logistically pull this project off well I think.

Fair enough. It's just you did use characters such as Vin Gonzales (as villain I grant you, which is not what he's become so far in the actual books) and Carlie Cooper (dating a Flash Thompson that's not in a wheelchair no less), after all. And if Carlie Cooper turns out to be Menace in the actual comics (as I think she could very well be since I consider Lily to be another red herring like Harry) then it really separates your work from theirs. Not to say that isn't a bad thing.

Aunt May had the perfect death once already, so I didn't want to even attempt to rival it. I just let her death be a shock, and tried to show respect to her legacy with the funeral. But yes, her death was mostly a piece of board clearing.

Very true. Although it could have easily been a cliffhanger at the end of the first issue, in a way. But I respect your rationale for doing it the way you did.

I see where you're coming from, involving Spidey would have been the more traditional way to do it. But I like the idea that Spider-Man just hears that someone's brutally killed Norman Osborn. Because Norman has such a status in his mind as the top of the evil tower, there's a sort of apprehension over who might have done that. And it was important for the development of Harry in this story for him to kill his father very deliberately. Whether it's a direction you like or not, it's a big turning point for him to tell his father that he's a disapointment, and then kill him easily.

And it was a very effective scene, especially the part about Harry's reveal that he's been in love with Gwen all along and that every woman he's been involved with was a proxy. It just having Spidey fighting the Green Goblin one last time would have nice. Then again, technically that happened in "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" already and that was the best send off for Norman Osborn anyway--another reason why bringing him back didn't sit well with me.

Not intentional but...ironic. Honestly, though, I always knew he'd bare a resemblance to Red Skull, but he's not going to look like that very much longer so it's not a big deal.

You mean to tell me the Faceless Man is actually the Nicolas Cage/John Travolta character "Castor Troy" from Face/Off!

Hmm, so has he or she been a character we seen before?

[CrazyChris]

I've addressed this before, but I made a decision not to wrap up or even acknowledge the many BND subplots, because those are their stories and I have no knowledge of how they're going to end. This book, to me, would be pointless if we were working on the same concepts. And mine would probably end up inferior since they have the map of how all the pieces fit and how all the mysteries work out, and I'd be flailing in the dark trying to piece together their clues in a coherant way. So yes, this was a cheat, but it was the only way to logistically pull this project off well I think.

...so you won't be using Alana Jobson? Dropped.

[Kevin Cushing]

Fair enough. It's just you did use characters such as Vin Gonzales (as villain I grant you, which is not what he's become so far in the actual books) and Carlie Cooper (dating a Flash Thompson that's not in a wheelchair no less), after all. And if Carlie Cooper turns out to be Menace in the actual comics (as I think she could very well be since I consider Lily to be another red herring like Harry) then it really separates your work from theirs. Not to say that isn't a bad thing.

Well you definitely have a point there. I guess it's just more their ongoing villain subplots I didn't want to deal with such as Mr. Negative, Menace, and Dexter Bennett. And, of course, Jackpot. Although having seen the resolution to that now I can't possibly imagine anyone doing a worse job of it. And yes, if Carlie Cooper turned out to be Menace that would be a huge divergence, though I highly doubt that will happen.

Then again, technically that happened in "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" already and that was the best send off for Norman Osborn anyway

Very true, another reason for me to steer clear of trying to redo/outdo it.

You mean to tell me the Faceless Man is actually the Nicolas Cage/John Travolta character "Castor Troy" from Face/Off!

Crap! Where're Quesada and Brevoort, I need a quick rewrite...

Hmm, so has he or she been a character we seen before?

Yes indeed. The Faceless Man is an established character, the Black Spider is a new one.

...so you won't be using Alana Jobson? Dropped.

[bdog]

Kev, this is probably my favorite issue yet! You really out did yourself, good job.

[Hambone]

I'm trying to imagine how an artist can decipher "As Peter is sitting, a napkin that Flash has just thrown hits him in the chest. They are all laughing." in one panel.

I can see it perfectly in my head, so would one of our artists like to draw this panel to show Mets?

I can think of a few ways (Granted, I'm merely an amateur, a pro like JRJr could probably list more.) I would probably go for somewhere between a "profile" shot to a 3/4 behind view of Peter (enough still to show a shocked image on Pete's face) in the foreground, with Flash and the girls in the background. (Basically, the picture I did of Norman and Harry, on page 5 of the fan art.)

The other 2 ways would use either an extreme aerial perspective or a "worm's eye"
view, with the vanishing point falling somewhere in the center of the two characters,
allowing us to see both Pete and Flash's expressions. However, I probably wouldn't want to use these 2 exteme "camera" angles as they're both a little too "dramatic" for what is essentially a light-hearted scenario. (If Flash was intentionally picking a fight with Pete, then I'd consider one of these two.)

Now in all fairness to Mets (and to maintain a level of objectivity on my part.) I would probably be inclined to break the scene into 2 beats, with the daydreaming Peter being snapped back into reality in one panel (the set-up) and then a reaction shot of a grinning Flash in the next (the "punch-line"). If this was a real life job, I'd pitch the idea to Kev (and/ or possibly the editor) he'd either agree or make a case for why the scene needs to remain as is, and whoever has the more compelling "argument" would win out.

[Hambone]

To add to the above post, you could also take the first idea and swap the characters around so that Flash is in the foreground and Pete is in the background, perhaps having an overly exagerrated "spastic" reaction to the napkin hitting him. This could even be a potentially stronger composition as we follow Flash's throw from left to right, but having his outstretched arm (and 1 or more of the ladies in the foreground) could end up obscuring Peter.

[cpahl2000]

Kev, this is probably my favorite issue yet! You really out did yourself, good job.

I´m with you, it was a great part one, full of twists and turn backs.

[Lockdown]

Kevin, you got me loving this series. From Norman's will to the Faceless man. I'm wanting more.

[FSUSpiderFan]

Here are my thoughts as they came while reading.

Would they think he faked his death?

The Ben Reilly references are very sly. I don’t think the clone saga references are pandering because that was an important part of Peter’s life, of course it would effect him later. The total absence of reference at Marvel for years was more unnatural.

The Faceless man seems appropriately brutal, although I’m not sure I like the name…maybe something a bit more subtle…

Sounds like Peter got one of his superbuddies to go after May’s killer. Sounds like Logan or Punisher. I understand why you are not having him do it himself since it would retread on Back in Black and interfere with his honeymoon but somehow I feel Peter wouldn’t abdicate that responsibility and give it to someone else…

Isn’t it a little strange having Peter and MJ go on a double date with an ex on their honeymoon?

I like Peter’s jabs at Flash and MJ referring to all the “events”.

Harry going to the taxidermist with Norman’s head is hilarious and creepy. I’m looking forward to the Grey Goblin getting put underground. Ben Urich better watch his back. Also, will Harry have conflicting feelings about someone who looks like the woman we now know he loved but is actually his sister? Seriously disturbing possibilities. Can’t wait…

I like the brewing friendship between MJ and Carlie. Their dialogue seems natural and MJ comes off as bright with a sense of humor. That is how I like her to be rather than a nagging wife or a helpless victim as she has sometimes been portrayed in the past.

The reference to the boxing match is a great way to tie into Ditko era events.

The vulnerability shown by Peter of not knowing what would happen was good because it emphasized his humanity and MJ being a source of strength for him.

I like the appearance of Murdock. Whenever Peter has to deal with the law, it’s nice to see he can rely on old DD.

Deodato… sounds familiar hmmm…

Norman passing the company to Peter feels like something he would do. It plays off of some of the comics where he was grooming him as a successor. It does have an Angel season five feel to it. Peter is going to take over Wolfram and Oscorp…

Will Peter use the resources to go forward with his scientific interests? Will he use them to upgrade his costume and equipment? He will now have the resources to be Batman. Do I sense a Spidercave in the future?

Where is Menken from I don’t remember him?

There it is, the Spider cave! The Black Spider is intriguing.

Nice ending, leaving us wanting more and fearing for the Bugle staff. With the track record you’ve setup we can’t be sure that bomb won’t go off and kill some important classic characters.

Hey look, you were able to write a great comic story in 22 pages, it’s amazing!

[BD]

Kev,

You're tied for my favorite Spider-book for the month. AMZ 574 and CS #3 are at the top of my list.

Your two biggest talents in my opinion are your humor and your history. I love the nods to the past. Here's my pros and cons of the issue



Pros:

I love the idea of Peter as the CEO of Oscorp. That's a new twist that I would have never thought of. It'll be fun to see him have control of the company for a bit. Hopefully it's not a long term thing. I know you like him as a teacher, but I like him as a photog.


Great scene with Harry and the taxadermist. I had a "Psycho" flashback of Norman Bates and his stuffed animals in the hotel. Great scene.

I also loved the line about Harry going after his half-brother and about Osborn family reunions. Again, great nod to the past and setting up the future.

Love the PP/MJ and Flash/ Lilly double date. I dont' think you took too long with the out of mask stuff. Half the attraction of Spider-Man is his soap-opera-ness.

Also loved Lilly talking to MJ in the bathroom. I'm a sucker for puns, and I loved the "but" part. I laughed out loud.

The Killshot death scene was also very cool. And I can so see the last words kill shot hears is "kill shot."


The black Spider is interesting. I fear it's too close to Venom though, but character development will make the two different entities.

Also love the Ben Reilly reference on the phone, very funny stuff.

Loved the Deodato reference. I always get a kick out of those things. Its just a nod to the fans. I mean why have Joe Blow the attorney when you can make someone smile with them being a "Bendis" a "Romita" etc. The Daredevil movie did it and I loved it.

Cons:
I wasn't a fan of Peter saying "he's scared." I know, Peter is the everyman, but he's also our hero. I'm not sure I've ever heard Peter say those words. I could be wrong. If MJ's life is in danger I could see it, or if Aunt May is clinging to her last breath...I could see him saying, "I"m scared." But going to a board meeting, nah.

Also if Matt Murdock doesn't know who Peter is, and Peter knows who Matt is....then why would he whisper to MJ about his secret when he knows DD's ears are sooo good. It's nit picky, but it bothered me when I read it.

Lack of Peter in the suit. I don't want a dumb mugger in the story to see the suit, but I want more Spidey. It might be different if I had the artwork. For instance, I see you working in the suits in the script. Like the Goblin appearing in the board room etc.


Rating: 4.5 webheads out of 5. Awesome job and I'm proud to have my sites name attached to it.



BD's guess of the Faceless man: A Clone with Peter Parker's body, and Norman Osborn's soul/ brain.

[LynnDavid]

Hi, This is my first time posting. A few minutes ago, I wrote a fairly detailed critique of the first three issues (I just found out about them and read all three at once), and I'm not sure what happened, but all of a sudden I was being asked to log in and my comments were gone. I'll summarize what I wrote before.

Congratulations on the achievement. It is impressive, though I have a general criticism. I expect an issue of Spider-Man to have several pages of action with at least one costumed fight scene, probably two, advancement of sub-plots, and advancement of the plots of the Peter Parker identity with his supporting cast. I think these issues have been heavy on the latter two elements, but too light on the first. I'd like to see more scenes of a villain actually fighting Spider-Man each issue.

I wonder if frustration with the lack of development of sub-plots in the official Marvel book has caused you to overcompensate with your efforts. You seem to have ten times the number of ideas of the "braintrust," and I commend you for that. I'd like to see each idea savored just a little bit more. [s]I hope, for example, you go back and show the confrontation between Harry and Norman. I think this could have very effectively been done in chronological order, without sacrificing the drama of Harry talking to Norman's severed head.
[/s] Sorry about that last bit. I got interrupted while reading issue #2, forgot I hadn't finished, and missed that scene. I would still like to see a few more action scenes, though!

Good luck with future issues!

Lynn David

[Kevin Cushing]

Wow! I've had kind of a crap day, so it's a real treat to come back to some great, well though out reviews tonight! Thanks everybody!

The Faceless man seems appropriately brutal, although I’m not sure I like the name…maybe something a bit more subtle…

I certainly see what you mean, but I just threw the obvious name on him because it's only going to last two issues. It's not some villain codename he chose, it's just that he doesn't have a face or know his name. That issue will be resolved next month...

Sounds like Peter got one of his superbuddies to go after May’s killer. Sounds like Logan or Punisher. I understand why you are not having him do it himself since it would retread on Back in Black and interfere with his honeymoon but somehow I feel Peter wouldn’t abdicate that responsibility and give it to someone else…

Oh don't worry, he's not going to let someone else take care of May's killer, he's just making use of the fact that he has friends who can probably track him down faster. It's strictly a "find him and call me" job.

Isn’t it a little strange having Peter and MJ go on a double date with an ex on their honeymoon?

I'm trying to show that MJ and Peter are mature people who can get past the whole "ex" thing. MJ saw how alone Carlie was at the reception and quickly started bonding with her, and Flash is really the best friend Peter has right now. So when Flash wants to get next Carlie, it only seemed natural to me that the Parkers would help him out.

Norman passing the company to Peter feels like something he would do. It plays off of some of the comics where he was grooming him as a successor. It does have an Angel season five feel to it. Peter is going to take over Wolfram and Oscorp…

Ha, I honestly didn't think of it quite that way, but I freely admit the influence of that excellent show!

Where is Menken from I don’t remember him?

Menken has a pretty interesting history with Oscorp. He's loyal to Norman, and was around with Harry when he took over Oscorp. I had to talk to JR to make sure of his current status, but JR tells me he hasn't appeared since Revenge of the Green Goblin. It was high time, I think.

Hey look, you were able to write a great comic story in 22 pages, it’s amazing!

There it is, folks. Your proof that I can write a great comic! (For anyone thinking this is me being really arrogant, it's just a joke about a former member who said I clearly couldn't write because the past two issues weren't 22 pages.)

Kev,

You're tied for my favorite Spider-book for the month. AMZ 574 and CS #3 are at the top of my list.

Damn! I don't think I deserve to be put next to that fantastic issue, but that is a wonderful compliment! Thanks Brad!

Love the PP/MJ and Flash/ Lilly double date. I dont' think you took too long with the out of mask stuff. Half the attraction of Spider-Man is his soap-opera-ness.

That's good to hear, because one of the things I wanted to show here was that you can still have that soap opera element even when he's married. I think that's one thing the brain trust has blown out of proportion about the attraction to a single Spider-Man. Just because Pete's not out "mackin' on hotties at da club" doesn't mean they have to just sit at home and sip tea.

Also loved Lilly talking to MJ in the bathroom. I'm a sucker for puns, and I loved the "but" part. I laughed out loud.

Glad you liked that, too! I didn't even intend that joke, I just wrote her saying "I smell a 'but,'" and then cracked up when I reread it. So I figured embracing the joke was best.

The Killshot death scene was also very cool. And I can so see the last words kill shot hears is "kill shot."

Also the line he said right after shooting Aunt May. He not only died, he got his face rubbed in it.

The black Spider is interesting. I fear it's too close to Venom though, but character development will make the two different entities.

Yeah, I think you have the right idea. I can totally see where people would think that after him just appearing on one page in his black suit, but wait until the end of the January issue and I promise you won't be thinking that anymore.

Loved the Deodato reference. I always get a kick out of those things. Its just a nod to the fans. I mean why have Joe Blow the attorney when you can make someone smile with them being a "Bendis" a "Romita" etc. The Daredevil movie did it and I loved it.

Exactly! You got it exactly. I loved the thug at the beginning of Daredevil being "Jose Quesada," and the Fixer (or whatever his movie name was) listing off "Mack, Miller, Bendis" as his fighters. If you need a name anyway, you may as well put a smile on some fans faces and give props to a great creator without who's work yours wouldn't be here. And Deodato's visual style is a huge influence on me.

I wasn't a fan of Peter saying "he's scared." I know, Peter is the everyman, but he's also our hero. I'm not sure I've ever heard Peter say those words. I could be wrong. If MJ's life is in danger I could see it, or if Aunt May is clinging to her last breath...I could see him saying, "I"m scared." But going to a board meeting, nah.

I can definitely appreciate your point of view with him being the hero, but I also think it's important to respect the legacy of Norman Osborn here. He did more to Peter's life than anyone else, and I do think it would be scary for Peter to go into this knowing it's Norman's final plan for him and having no idea what it is. The damage Norman could do to him even from beyond the grave is incalculable. And I would never have him admit it to anyone but MJ. He was covering his fears with humor like he always does, but he just can't fool her.

Also if Matt Murdock doesn't know who Peter is, and Peter knows who Matt is....then why would he whisper to MJ about his secret when he knows DD's ears are sooo good. It's nit picky, but it bothered me when I read it.

Oh Matt knows who he is. Remember, the public unmasking was removed but anyone who found out in another way before or after still knows. So Spider-Man and Daredevil's longstanding friendship is fully intact in this comic.

Lack of Peter in the suit. I don't want a dumb mugger in the story to see the suit, but I want more Spidey. It might be different if I had the artwork. For instance, I see you working in the suits in the script. Like the Goblin appearing in the board room etc.

I hear ya, and I promise your jones for suited up Spidey will be more than satisfied next issue. But personally, I've always loved heroes' personal lives every bit as much as their costumed lives, and some of the best issues I've ever read don't include costumes at all. I think most of my issues will have a satisfying amount of costumes for you, but there'll be these once in awhile, too. Especially with these first couple of issues, I've really been trying rebuild Peter's whole life so there's been less of the costume.

Rating: 4.5 webheads out of 5. Awesome job and I'm proud to have my sites name attached to it.

Thank you so much, Brad. You really made me feel good tonight!

Hi, This is my first time posting.

Thanks LynnDavid! I really appreciate it so much when people sign up just to comment on the issue. It means a lot to me!

A few minutes ago, I wrote a fairly detailed critique of the first three issues (I just found out about them and read all three at once), and I'm not sure what happened, but all of a sudden I was being asked to log in and my comments were gone.

Damn! That sucks, sorry to hear that. You may want to make sure you check the box that says "keep me signed in" next time you sign in. That's the only thing I can think it could be.

I expect an issue of Spider-Man to have several pages of action with at least one costumed fight scene, probably two, advancement of sub-plots, and advancement of the plots of the Peter Parker identity with his supporting cast. I think these issues have been heavy on the latter two elements, but too light on the first. I'd like to see more scenes of a villain actually fighting Spider-Man each issue.

I understand that desire to have everything encapsulated in every issue, but I just don't go for much of a formula. I just try to serve the best interests of the atmosphere of the issue. So while I can't promise you'll get all of that in every issue, I can promise you'll at least get it all in every story arc. Big fight next month, so stay tuned!

I wonder if frustration with the lack of development of sub-plots in the official Marvel book has caused you to overcompensate with your efforts. You seem to have ten times the number of ideas of the "braintrust," and I commend you for that. I'd like to see each idea savored just a little bit more.

Heh, maybe you're right. I just generally find the psyches and relationships of characters to be the most interesting part of any fiction, no matter what medium or genre, so I tend to spend the most time on it. I'm the kind of person that's generally bored to tears by an all battle issue.

I hope, for example, you go back and show the confrontation between Harry and Norman. I think this could have very effectively been done in chronological order, without sacrificing the drama of Harry talking to Norman's severed head.

I'm a little confused by this particular criticism. I spent about 10 pages showing the confrontation between Harry and Norman from start to finish with no cut aways. What do you want me to go back and show, exactly? Not trying to be snarky or flippant, I genuinely just don't understand.

Good luck with future issues!

Lynn David

Thanks, and I hope to hear your thoughts again next month! Welcome to the Crawl Space, and please feel free to post all around here, it's a fun place!