Crawl Space #2 Discussion Thread

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Crawl Space #2 Discussion Thread

Post by Kevin Cushing » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:01 pm

Whew! Anybody see that one coming? I've been waiting very anxiously to post this one for all of your consumption for awhile now, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts! I was overwhelmed last month by the amazing response to issue 1, and I really can't wait to see what you thought of this one. I think it's even better, but how about you? Are you shocked and scandalized that I would actually do that, or do you think it was about time? Please, let all your thoughts - good and bad - out right here. I can't wait to see your reaction!

And if you haven't read the issue yet, read it here now!
Last edited by Kevin Cushing on Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Tetsuo_Man » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:40 pm

The whole oedipal relationship between norman and harry is great. I can't beleive that something could actually sorta warm me up to the idea of harry being alive and on top of that sorta healing my feelings on sins past all in the same time.
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Post by Zarius » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:03 am

The Goblin King's on the variant right?

Because it seriously looks like that's proof Aunt May is Menace....


Nah, just being a prick. On with the review

Peter confronting Stark with the compromise was another good nod to the two's post-CW interaction (last seen in OMD's first instalment) where Peter, a big guilt trip for Tony, gradually appeals to the man's repressed sense of reason in these heighted states of emergencies. I love that the two see each other as equals, Peter having outgrown the mentor figured he relied on too much at a cost. I also like that Peter is reallistic about where his posistion ought to be...patrolling the places Tony can't or won't acknowledge much in light of bigger combat operations.

May's funeral was great, remarrying the next day may come off as a little taboo for some who've dealt with periods of mourning, but Peter and MJ are so used to beleiving in a death that they want something positive out of one memory in case it turns false (and I'm not expecting May back of course)

...As for the Osborn confrontation...without spoiling anything....I loved it, it was page upon page of a fine wine, the Harry/Norman confrontation that Slott failed to deliver. No "World's Greatest Dad" mug, no "It's in our blood, join me Harry and together we'll rule the galaxy as father and son" rubbish, this was real back-to-back "What the hell have you been doing?" argumentitive ferocity. Naked aggresion immediate and condensing years of missed oppertunities into one very decisive showdown. Harry came across as his old DeMatties-era self with a little dose of Slott's interpretation to match. A welcome releif from the rich man's Jughead he's been in a sea of Archie-level low-brow mediocrity.

As a Spider-Man story, it covered considerable bases (albiet too quickly in some instances), gave the "Volume Two May" a decent send-off, and slowly began grounding the continuity back into the "regular" Spider-Man universe with a spine-chilling confrontation that brought Harry back to Spidey the right way.

Bring on Spider-Man Black

****1/2
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Post by Hertz » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:10 am

Just finished reading this and I have to say it's better than the last one. The dialogue read better, I liked roller coaster climb/set-up, liking the concept for Harry right now. There are a few things I'm wondering about now. Are you throwing a bit of Ultimate Universe goblin in there with the fireball, or is that some yet to be mentioned tech (don't have to answer this)? Is it explained in the comics that Norman's wife died giving birth to Harry (kinda new to Spider-Man comics)? Interested in Harry loving Gwen, wondering what that meant when Pete and Gwen were in love. Would Tony have agreed to Pete's offer that fast without any counter offer? Can't really think of anything else be it good, bad, or otherwise right now so, good job. This was a fun read and I can't wait for the next one.

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Post by BD » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:46 am

Here's a video of the song Kevin referenced in the tag of the issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ldv__OvekQ
Thoughts:

I did like this issue better than the previous one. You were in a corner in issue one that you had to get out of. You had to go supernatural with the Devil, Thor etc to un-do the marriage. This one was more Spidey soap-opera-ish and that's my favorite.

My favorite scenes:
The creepy MJ/ Norman confrontation. That scene was so juicy! I mean Norman has to bring up the Gwen thing to the Parker's. Norman touching MJ was just so creepy, I love it.

Loved the Scarlet Spider reference at the beginning. It's another example of using history to reference briefly but a nod to the long time fans.

I also enjoyed the line,
“And every time Spider-Man saves a life, May Parker’s spirit is alive and well and doing good in the world.”

I might have inserted the words "Ben & May Parker's" instead. Because with Aunt May's death, she essentially is playing the same role Uncle Ben did and has over the years.

JJJ's free booze line was typical and in-character. I chuckled a bit.


Thoughts:I keep going back to what JR said in a previous podcast. Why replace a classic with a knock-off? You wrote Norman sooooo well, why kill him off? The Green Goblin is Spidey's number one villain. I bitched back in the 1990s when they resurrected him, but I really have enjoyed his return.

I also am a bit concerned about the "whacking policy". Aunt May and Norman just in two issues? WOWZA! Ms. Lion got whacked off panel. I'm not a fiction writer, so I don't know about the process. I don't know how to write on-going fiction and have forward movement, all the time trying to keep the status-quo. Sure death stories are classics. ASM 400 and Spec #200 stand out, but they were both undone. I guess my point is, death is not permanent and has almost become too cliche.


Final Thoughts: You have a great talent for dialog. The characters had their distinct voices. Your words also are easy to imagine and would hop off the page if you were teamed with the right penciler. Deodato comes to mind as the perfect match. Keep the issues coming, I'm hooked.
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Post by Kevin Cushing » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:23 am

Tetsuo_Man wrote:The whole oedipal relationship between norman and harry is great. I can't beleive that something could actually sorta warm me up to the idea of harry being alive and on top of that sorta healing my feelings on sins past all in the same time.
Wow, as one of the very few fans of Sins Past, it is really nice to hear I've affected someone's feelings on it in a positive way. Thanks!
Zarius wrote:May's funeral was great, remarrying the next day may come off as a little taboo for some who've dealt with periods of mourning, but Peter and MJ are so used to beleiving in a death that they want something positive out of one memory in case it turns false (and I'm not expecting May back of course)
She will not. I swear to you, she will not.
...As for the Osborn confrontation...without spoiling anything....I loved it, it was page upon page of a fine wine, the Harry/Norman confrontation that Slott failed to deliver. No "World's Greatest Dad" mug, no "It's in our blood, join me Harry and together we'll rule the galaxy as father and son" rubbish, this was real back-to-back "What the hell have you been doing?" argumentitive ferocity. Naked aggresion immediate and condensing years of missed oppertunities into one very decisive showdown. Harry came across as his old DeMatties-era self with a little dose of Slott's interpretation to match. A welcome releif from the rich man's Jughead he's been in a sea of Archie-level low-brow mediocrity.
That is higher praise than I ever expected on a scene I was already proud of. Thank you! Especially nice for a wine lover such as myself :wink:
Hertz wrote:Are you throwing a bit of Ultimate Universe goblin in there with the fireball, or is that some yet to be mentioned tech (don't have to answer this)?
That is part of the "evolution" Harry underwent from the new Goblin Formula (but I promise, he's not going to Hulk out). The whole idea for The Goblin King is that this is someone nightmarish, someone you will &$^% your pants if you see at night. And to me, he's more scary if he has great tech, but doesn't have to rely on it. As Peter has his organic webshooters, Harry now has sort of organic pumpkin bombs. Bwahaha! [smilie=greengoblin.gif]
Is it explained in the comics that Norman's wife died giving birth to Harry (kinda new to Spider-Man comics)?
The way Norman tells it, she died in childbirth. The way Harry tells it, she was alive for years later. It seemed to me plausible enough that Harry's version is correct, and Norman convinced himself otherwise to give himself a scapegoat. He needed something to hate.
Interested in Harry loving Gwen, wondering what that meant when Pete and Gwen were in love.
I freely admit I got this idea from JR's articles. He made some excellent observations that really made sense to me, and I wanted to bring them into continuity for further mining of the character potential.
Would Tony have agreed to Pete's offer that fast without any counter offer?


Well since I wrote it, I think so, but I'm biased. In all reality, though, I think Tony genuinely wants his friends around him again so very much, and the real Tony is not a total dick. But note that he told Peter they would talk more about his second condition later. It will come up again, albeit not immediately.
BD wrote:I also enjoyed the line,
“And every time Spider-Man saves a life, May Parker’s spirit is alive and well and doing good in the world.”

I might have inserted the words "Ben & May Parker's" instead. Because with Aunt May's death, she essentially is playing the same role Uncle Ben did and has over the years.
While that's true, the focus had to be on May since it was her funeral. We've spent so much time mourning Uncle Ben, I felt this needed total focus on May for her final send off. Final. Seriously. Swear to God. I will make it stick!
I keep going back to what JR said in a previous podcast. Why replace a classic with a knock-off? You wrote Norman sooooo well, why kill him off? The Green Goblin is Spidey's number one villain. I bitched back in the 1990s when they resurrected him, but I really have enjoyed his return.

I also am a bit concerned about the "whacking policy". Aunt May and Norman just in two issues? WOWZA! Ms. Lion got whacked off panel. I'm not a fiction writer, so I don't know about the process. I don't know how to write on-going fiction and have forward movement, all the time trying to keep the status-quo. Sure death stories are classics. ASM 400 and Spec #200 stand out, but they were both undone. I guess my point is, death is not permanent and has almost become too cliche.
Well I will start off by assuring you that this sort of body count is not going to be indicative of the entire run. I just had a bit of stage clearing to do at the start. I do not have a lot of death's planned for this series at all...$*%&, there's a death in #3...

Also, I agree that death has become a cliche, and I would never kill anyone that I thought ever had a chance of coming back. And I am considering this as Marvel comics continuity, and thinking about what would happen when more writers came after me. With Aunt May, well, she's died so many times, I just hope future creative teams would see that this was truly the last straw. To bring her back again after that would be moronic. And with Norman...he got his head cut off for a reason. I chose that method because it makes it impossible for him to return (barring someone writing one of the stupidest stories of all time, which I admit could happen).

Now, the big question: why kill Norman? Plain and simple, Harry has always had the potential to be Spider-Man's greatest villain. He's the kind of character writers dream about at night, the best friend who Peter has let down time and time again. A villain totally evil, but who has a legitimate beef - our hero sucked at being a friend, and was never there when he was needed. The best friend turned villain has far more potential than the best friend's old man who is just evil. (Not to devalue Norman, he was a great villain for a long time.) So Harry is the priority here, and the simple fact is that Harry cannot co-exist with his father and become a great villain. He'll always be looking to Norman for approval, and Norman will always think his plans are lackluster and unworthy of his legacy. You just can't hatch a great villainous plot like that. Also, in order to realize Harry's full potential, I'm making him decidedly more confident. And the all time most crucial character moment for Harry is to finally stand up to his father and tell him that he is a disappointment. For Harry to kill his father is a huge and irreplacable step in his character development that will allow him to become the great villain he's always had the potential to be. And now that Norman's not there to judge him, he can become that villain.
You have a great talent for dialog. The characters had their distinct voices. Your words also are easy to imagine and would hop off the page if you were teamed with the right penciler. Deodato comes to mind as the perfect match. Keep the issues coming, I'm hooked.
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Post by Funnykay » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:22 am

Everything's starting to go into place. I think you could have edited it down a little but aother than that and the 'wacking policy' a great story.

Favourite Quote: Panel 1: Harry screams in Norman’s face.
HARRY (burst):
Gwen!!!
You slept with Gwen!!!

Panel 2: Norman laughs at him.
NORMAN:
Actually, there wasn’t much sleeping…

That was just pure Norman Osborn evil.

I give this issue a 4/5
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Post by insaneJonny » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:42 am

Bout time, another running commentary for you. As always i'll point out the stuff i find good and bad.

Alternate Cover: Holy cow, we're getting an ultimate spidey crossover :wink:
Page 1: 2 panels and a scarlet spider reference, thats gotta be fan pandering :wink:, funny joke though with the name joke, sounds just like a quip jms would of included.
Page 2: Again you highlight how completely ****ed up the idea of spidey being as an outlaw is and write a realistically plausable conversation about how to get around it. Tony trusted and respected Peter and would of easily made a few allowances for him. Even hercules who sided with the hulk during wwh was offered his place on the avengers after it.
Page 3: Continued good characterization of tony that reminds me of the way jms wrote him.
Nothing specific to say about the funeral or wedding scenes other then both were well written and emotional.
Page 11: interesting conversation
Page 12: Way to get rid of the huge mary jane is a whore problem from peter parker paparazzi.
Page 14: Good characterization of jonah
Page 15: Hurrah, real Norman. Not that pathetic government stooge who's been appearing in nwtd.
Page 17: Two thoughts
1. Peter didn't kill norman, he "killed" himself. Peter just jumped out of the way and mj knew this. But of course the way you're writing it it's clear that mj is trying to show Norman she wasn't afraid of him but surely someone should of corrected the series of events.
2. Again? i'm sorry kev but if you're implying Norman raped her during asm 121 then i am totally not on board with that despite being a fellow sins past fanboy. Sins past was completely consensual after all. i just have a problem with my favourite villain, a man i one day hope to write a series about, being a rapist. This is a personal preference more rather then an outright complaint about bad characterisation then anything else though.
Page 21: Harrys story reminds me of wonder mans origin.
Page 23: i love love love harry calling norman on giving aunt may back to pete, and the emo superheroes
Page 24: Once again you address another problem with BND, harry apparently has no problem with his father killing his friend.
i was actually waiting for harry to call norman a bastard, hoping you wouldn't skimp out on the swearing.
Page 25: Wow, really great concept. Normans crazy, so crazy his head rewrites his memory. Great concept.
Page 26: Great again, harry isn't the gg, norman is. And looks like you're getting around this by making harry into the goblin king.
Page 29:...you did not just do that....you did not just do that. Please tell me he was a clone, or a robot, or the chameleon, or somebody that isn't norman freaking osborn. Guess the rape stuff doesn't matter any more.

i'm am not 100% against the idea of norman being dead as it's clear your grooming harry to embrace his destiny as his fathers true successor, but you have you're work cut out with you after killing off the only member of spideys rogues gallery i gave a frak about. you just better know you have the next arc to show us how and why you think Harry has the right to be spideys greatest enemy.

Overall, another solid entry with the minor pacing issues i mentioned from last issue apparently gone. The only observation (i can't even call it a problem because it isn't really one) i left with is that our favourite wall crawler didn't actually appear in over 30 pages. And that this was really a talking heads special. Of course this was was all down to you clearing your decks for your masterplan, and i'm very eager to see where you take that.
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Post by DeadMeat » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:55 am

Brilliance, man. $#@&ing brilliance.

There's not much to add that BD and the others haven't already touched on.

I liked Harry coming back and the interactions between him and Norman.

And like BD said about the scene involving Norman and MJ, "Juicy!".

Even though Norman got his $#@&ing head cut off, I'd like to see Harry be the top Goblin for a while. Maybe sometime later, Norman could reconnect his head to his body and he and Harry can have a Goblin brawl.

Keep up the good work Kevin!!
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Post by Kevin Cushing » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:05 pm

UPDATE: I have just edited in the colored version of the standard cover, so if you've already read the issue, make sure to go back and take a look! Thanks to bdog for the colors!

And I'll address the comments since last night in here later, I'm actually headed out of town right now. Thanks for reading and I can't wait to see all the new comments when I get back!
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Post by Bevie » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:32 pm

Kevin - I say it again. Wow! I loved loved loved it. [smilie=spidey_dude.gif]

The confrontation with Stark That is the Peter that I admire. No sickening sycophant he! Man to man and all that. Perfect. I was so proud of Pete that the girly tears started to flow.

Then the funeral and the weddidng. I was a mess, I was so happy. No misogynist you! Thank you so much.

And sleazy creepy Norman! Really ominous and scarey with MJ. Really felt the fear.

Harry and Norman? Can I keep saying Wow? Yikes! I didn't expect THAT! My dear Gawd! What will JR say?

And then all too soon it was over. Haha! I thought you said it was too long? This time I imagined the pages as drawn by Deodato as Brad suggested.

What a book! Compared to the juvenile superficial mush in ASM there is no contest. You've got all the deep heart and soul of the real Peter Parker in there.

Just so you don't think I'm just kissing your butt, didn't Norman kidnap Gwen from Peter's apartment and not from her bedroom? But perhaps it is that Norm's nanites and insanity are seriously screwing up his memories. Do I get a no-prize?

Can't wait for the next one. [smilie=spidey_dance.gif]

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Post by Tetsuo_Man » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:20 pm

Mind you kev it's still in the hypothetical. But if marvel were to go the route you did building on sins past and using it in the combative relationship between harry and norman then i'd be a 100% sold on the whole thing.
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Post by FSUSpiderFan » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:09 pm

I really enjoy that you mix in elements from different eras, mentioning things that Marvel usually ignores ever happened.
The Thunderbolts are going after the Scarlet Spider? Does that refer to Ben being alive somehow or are they going after the Scarlet Spiders from the Initiative?

I like the sensible solution to the registration problem. No sense in Peter holding a grudge against Tony that only hurts himself and his family.

Classy and touching sendoff for May. Peter acknowledging that she is his real mother was very sentimental.

I like the flashback to the first wedding and May’s spunky way of telling him to get his crap together.

MJ and Peter’s characterizations as a couple were dead on.

MJ being friendly with Carlie was surprising but I liked her threat of breaking her legs. Not sure what your going to do with the character but I guess we’ll see. Honestly, I thought you were going to do away with her. What happened to Lilly?

Classic JJJJ “Drinks are on me, Robbie!”

Nice to see Flash again.

Didn’t care for the rape threat by Norman to MJ. It was a bit disturbing, which was the intention I’m sure but it is just uncomfortable.

So Norman didn’t know Harry was alive even though he has been hanging with Peter and running the Coffee Bean for weeks? The Thunderbolts intelligence must be really bad!

Where do you get the indications that Harry was really in love with Gwen all along?

Holy Norman Osborn decapitation Spider-man!

I like the passage of the Goblin/Osborn legacy being so finally established. Harry has grown into his own man. I wonder what J.R. will think if he reads this….
I hope you get into his motives later for why he would now want to break Peter.

I like the choice of soundtrack. It’s a good song that fits the mood and the meaning of the scene. No actual Spidey action but that’s ok. Way to go another solid, eventful issue.

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Post by Shadow116 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:34 pm

Bravo, this was even better than the last. I like Peter/MJ interaction and banter since I am and have always been a Peter/MJ shipper lol.

Also thank you for all the great Norman and Harry interaction! All my favorite characters made it into one issue. Peter, M.J., Norman, and of course Harry.

The way Harry took over the Goblin mantle seemed very fitting here also. I also like that he can do the Ultimate Goblin's tricks.

I can't wait for more of the Goblin King.

Though I will miss Norman dearly, well as dearly as I can miss my favorite Spidey villain. At least he went out in a bang.
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GAWD DAMN

Post by Vinny57 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:44 pm

That was &!$%ing amazing bro. True Amazing Spider-Man.

The Norman/MJ scene, now that's the Norman we all love.

The Harry/Norman scene...perfect, absolutely perfect.

I'm not bothered by the killing of Norman at all, as long as you can make Harry THE Goblin, I'm sure it will all play out great.

The Aunt May funeral dialogue with Peter was great, ASM 400 great. Truly.

The only slight problem I had with this is Harry's name. Not really feeling Goblin King, but hey what else can you call an evolved Green Goblin. But I do like that the name shows that he is stepping out of his father's shadow and becoming his own breed of villain

I really hope that someone from Marvel sees the work you are doing. It deserves recognition. Once again, you let these characters write themselves and it shows in the dialogue. Every character talks and acts the way they should and more.

This is Spider-Man. Not the paper I am paying 2.99 for. This is the Spider-Man I know and love.
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