2006 Year in Review Part 2

Discuss your thoughts on the articles written by J.R. Fettinger from the www.spideykicksbutt.com website.

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Postby spideyshohaib » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:37 pm

How bout Fantastic Four Inc they could also built a gulag also i belive Damage Control coud also help
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Postby CyberGhostface » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:34 pm

Whee...first post in a looong time.

Now, you Daredevil fans are going to have to help me on this one - is this in or out of character for the Kingpin to do? Particularly since his own wife has been used against him before by his enemies. Wouldn't he consider murdering an old woman and another man's wife beneath him?


As a Kingpin fan, I didn't consider it to be in character, especially (in terms of release dates) Brubaker had shown the Kingpin sobbing at his wife's grave a couple of weeks to a month earlier.

Also in the beginning of Brubaker's run, Foggy was apparently killed. (He was later revealed to have been put in protective custody but thats another matter). Matt suspected Kingpin to have been involved since Kingpin was chuckling over the incident, but when Matt later confronted the Kingpin he said "I enjoyed your pain. That does not mean I caused it." (Don't know the specifics, but Kingpin was innocent in that particular situation.) I think, if written in character, Kingpin would have acted similar here. He'd probably enjoy seeing Spider-Man suffer but he wouldn't have been the cause of it per se.
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Postby Kevin Cushing » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:40 pm

CyberGhostface wrote:Whee...first post in a looong time.

Now, you Daredevil fans are going to have to help me on this one - is this in or out of character for the Kingpin to do? Particularly since his own wife has been used against him before by his enemies. Wouldn't he consider murdering an old woman and another man's wife beneath him?


As a Kingpin fan, I didn't consider it to be in character, especially (in terms of release dates) Brubaker had shown the Kingpin sobbing at his wife's grave a couple of weeks to a month earlier.

Also in the beginning of Brubaker's run, Foggy was apparently killed. (He was later revealed to have been put in protective custody but thats another matter). Matt suspected Kingpin to have been involved since Kingpin was chuckling over the incident, but when Matt later confronted the Kingpin he said "I enjoyed your pain. That does not mean I caused it." (Don't know the specifics, but Kingpin was innocent in that particular situation.) I think, if written in character, Kingpin would have acted similar here. He'd probably enjoy seeing Spider-Man suffer but he wouldn't have been the cause of it per se.


As a matter of clarification since there's a question, Kingpin's wife Vanessa was responsible for the attempt on Foggy.

As for in or out of character, I call it in. Wilson Fisk is a ruthless crime lord who regularly has men, women, and children killed indescriminantly. Heck, in Miller's Man Without Fear, he ran a child porn ring (I might not have like it, but it's canon). And Fisk seemed to have no problem with the idea of Karen Page being killed by Bullseye, though he didn't order it. He still admired it. Fisk was the one who ordered Elektra's death. He has an odd relationship of respect with Murdock that he does not have with Spider-Man, but even with Murdock this kind of thing doesn't seem to be beneath him. I see nothing out of character here.
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Postby MadGoblin » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:27 pm

Morbius wrote:
CyberGhostface wrote:Whee...first post in a looong time.

Now, you Daredevil fans are going to have to help me on this one - is this in or out of character for the Kingpin to do? Particularly since his own wife has been used against him before by his enemies. Wouldn't he consider murdering an old woman and another man's wife beneath him?


As a Kingpin fan, I didn't consider it to be in character, especially (in terms of release dates) Brubaker had shown the Kingpin sobbing at his wife's grave a couple of weeks to a month earlier.

Also in the beginning of Brubaker's run, Foggy was apparently killed. (He was later revealed to have been put in protective custody but thats another matter). Matt suspected Kingpin to have been involved since Kingpin was chuckling over the incident, but when Matt later confronted the Kingpin he said "I enjoyed your pain. That does not mean I caused it." (Don't know the specifics, but Kingpin was innocent in that particular situation.) I think, if written in character, Kingpin would have acted similar here. He'd probably enjoy seeing Spider-Man suffer but he wouldn't have been the cause of it per se.


As a matter of clarification since there's a question, Kingpin's wife Vanessa was responsible for the attempt on Foggy.

As for in or out of character, I call it in. Wilson Fisk is a ruthless crime lord who regularly has men, women, and children killed indescriminantly. Heck, in Miller's Man Without Fear, he ran a child porn ring (I might not have like it, but it's canon). And Fisk seemed to have no problem with the idea of Karen Page being killed by Bullseye, though he didn't order it. He still admired it. Fisk was the one who ordered Elektra's death. He has an odd relationship of respect with Murdock that he does not have with Spider-Man, but even with Murdock this kind of thing doesn't seem to be beneath him. I see nothing out of character here.


Yeah, I was afraid to really venture into an opinion here - because I remember a DD comic long ago where the Kingpin abandoned one of his "employees" to Daredevil's mercy because Fisk ordered him NOT to try to seduce another man's wife, and yet he did anyway. I didn't know if his own personal experiences had somehow modified some of his tactics and gave him a twisted morality. As you mentioned - he'd enjoy it when it happened - it's just not something he would do. But I also remember an issue of Spectacular (?) Spider-Man where he was ratting out someone else (either the Rose or Silvermane) to Spidey because as he stated "drugs are a filthy way of doing business." I chalk that up to him just lying because really, I don't see how you can be a mob boss in his position WITHOUT having a piece of the drug traffic.

Ordering a hit on a rival's family is nothing I would put past a crimelord, that's for sure. Although I think taking out Elektra, being an assassin in her own right, is not the same as taking out Mary Jane. I'm more surprised, as I mentioned, that he even entertained the thought that a sniper could take out Spider-Man. If it was that easy, it would have happened a long time ago.

Maybe we expect too much consistency considering how many hands have been in the respective comics pies all of these years...
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Postby SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:06 pm

I always thought one of the more interesting aspects of the Kingpin's character was the inherent contradictions in situations like these.

Fisk may very well believe that drugs and kiddie porn are a disgusting way to do business, but that doesn't mean he's not willing to do that business. As the man on top, he doesn't have to deal with it personally, but he still profits. From his perspective, it would probably be stupid not to deal in these markets, because leaving them open would just provide a way for rivals to fill the vacuum they would create.

Or I could be reading way too much into it.
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Postby CyberGhostface » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:59 pm

Is MWF in continuity for sure??? Because I heard that it was a rejected movie plot from Miller and has contradicted numerous other plot points. And I'm a bit hesitant to throw the "kiddie porn" label at Fisk since he's never done it since MWF.
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Postby Kevin Cushing » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:37 pm

It was originally supposed to be a movie pitch, but then he adapted it for comics. When they printed it, they said it was the definitive origin of DD, and I've not heard that contradicted since, though I may have just missed it. I'd like it to not be in continuity, though, since he screwed up Elektra for some reason and changed the story of her father's death. But that's the only thing I noticed that contradicted continuity.
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Postby Foxeris » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:58 pm

It's interesting, during the Civil War series I was also reading Fantastic Four, primarily because JMS was writing it at the time, and the politics was even more front and center in that book. Really it made me take a step back and look at what he writes and how.

The whole businessman as fascist is something that he has touched on in his writing before. Usually starting out as kindly, taking the subject under his wing but with clear signs of wheels in wheels and moving onto big world changing things. Genocide in one case.

The other thing is the Black List, HUAC and Joe McCarthy (and as someone who claims to know the history he likes to connected them all the time). He puts it in many stories as his political comment on the loss of civil rights and the like. One could almost argue that it is his big boogie man and short hand for jack boots and brown shirts. Ironically his stand seems to come out of a real lack of understand of what happened and what it was all about back then.

The story about "Uncle Ted" is much longer in Fantastic Four and more handshakingly wrong. Not to mention he writes Mr. Fantastic as the well meaning extremist who believes that he's doing the exact and only right thing to save the world. Working with Stark is the necessary evil to 'save the world' and is the prison. He has doubts about how he is doing it, but he still feels he is correct. Heck, he's presented as correct because of his intelligence, that he can't be anything other the corrected as he's so very smart, and that the ends are worth all of it. This is something they are trying to retcon at the moment with a new writer.

Another thing that bothered me about JMS's writing in this case was what he said going in. I remember him saying that things would be fair, both sides would get there chance to say their piece and it wouldn't be strawman and all that, but when we get the feds in it's a collection of 'Evil' congressmen. You know going in that registration will be evil and the same old thing.
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Postby Thanos6 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:34 am

If Marvel had had the guts, they should have let the anti-registration side win and then go on to explore the only logical outgrowth: the superheroes take over the world.

Gruenwald did it in Squadron Supreme...
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Postby George Berryman » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:23 am

Thanos6 wrote:If Marvel had had the guts, they should have let the anti-registration side win and then go on to explore the only logical outgrowth: the superheroes take over the world.

Gruenwald did it in Squadron Supreme...


Yeah but that's why Gruenwald did it in Squadron Supreme. It'd be a lot harder to come back from with the regular MU.
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Postby Thanos6 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:35 am

Well, they let Kang takeover the world with no repurcussions at all... ;)
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Postby George Berryman » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:37 am

Thanos6 wrote:Well, they let Kang takeover the world with no repurcussions at all... ;)


Yeah but that was contained all in one title right? You mean the Busiek Avengers story?
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Postby SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:48 am

If Marvel had any guts, they'd take Tony Stark's storyline to its logical conclusion, and make him president of the United States.

But then they wouldn't be able to make poorly planned political comparisons in the future.
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Postby Thanos6 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:49 am

Yeah (with a little reference in Thunderboltls). That really infuriated me. It was literally a WORLD WAR in which, for the first time ever, a supervillain physically takes over the world (as opposed to Dr. Doom's mind control) for a period of several weeks to months and blows up Washington, but it's no big deal and is barely referenced ever again?

I LOVE the story, I just paid $50 to buy the hardcover, but honestly...
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Postby George Berryman » Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:18 am

Thanos6 wrote:Yeah (with a little reference in Thunderboltls). That really infuriated me. It was literally a WORLD WAR in which, for the first time ever, a supervillain physically takes over the world (as opposed to Dr. Doom's mind control) for a period of several weeks to months and blows up Washington, but it's no big deal and is barely referenced ever again?

I LOVE the story, I just paid $50 to buy the hardcover, but honestly...


My favorite part of that was Wanda finally giving Simon the boot cause she realized she loved Vision still. Unfortunately not long after she blew him up and everyone in the MU started acting like 'Star Trek Mirror Mirror' versions of themselves.

But I disliked most of Busiek's run. He was rehashing a lot of stories from the Stern and Michelinie years on Avengers. Busiek even made me dislike the Beast and I didn't think that'd ever be possible.
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