2006 Year in Review Part 2

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2006 Year in Review Part 2

Postby MadGoblin » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:55 am

The wrap up of my look at Civil War.

2006 Year in Review Part 2
Last edited by MadGoblin on Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby spideyshohaib » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:50 pm

LOve it Love it

I have always been a fan of your work JR since he first movie came out i have been reading your stuff as a 15year old crazed spiderman fan

Keep up the goo work also I love the fact webshooters are back

go go webshooters TWIP!!
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Postby Venom65437 » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:38 pm

Great stuff as usual JR! And I think think you should take a break for your other idea... it keeps seeming to pop up. Heh.

Also, I'd love to see the original cut of part 1. :P
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Postby SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:39 pm

I said all I wanted to say about Civil War in response to the last article, so there's nothing much for me to say this week.

A question, though: In your overall opinion, how is Ellis' run on the Thunderbolts? As someone who's interested mostly in Mac and Norm, would it be worth my while to pick up?
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Postby CrazyChris » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:28 pm

NEXT TIME: Well, I've alluded to it more than once - maybe I should take a quickie break from 2006 and jump start into the "Worst Story of 2007." Any candidates?


Only of 2007? I was thinking more like EVER. Our hero was reduced to a sniviling child and erased from reality. How could it be worse?
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Postby MadGoblin » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:43 pm

CrazyChris wrote:
NEXT TIME: Well, I've alluded to it more than once - maybe I should take a quickie break from 2006 and jump start into the "Worst Story of 2007." Any candidates?


Only of 2007? I was thinking more like EVER. Our hero was reduced to a sniviling child and erased from reality. How could it be worse?


Have faith in your Uncle Goblin. There will also be an update to an older article next week as well.... :wink:

SheriffOfCoffeeTown wrote:A question, though: In your overall opinion, how is Ellis' run on the Thunderbolts? As someone who's interested mostly in Mac and Norm, would it be worth my while to pick up?


I liked the first story arc and while Norman and Gargan obviously have to share the stage with other players, they each have some good moments. However, the series is now bi-monthly with a one-shot every other month as a result of Ellis falling behind and I can't really recommend the one-shots.
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Postby CrazyChris » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:55 am

O.K. - let's take a moment here. In the beginning of this story arc three issues ago, Peter asks MJ and May for their advice and counsel on whether or not to reveal his secret identity - because - as he states - it affects them too. Yet, when he decides to go on the run - he doesn't solicit their opinion or feedback, or frame his angst and doubts for them. Nope - he's made up both his mind and THEIR minds for them and they are going to go on the run and live like fugitives and face the risk of imprisonment!


It makes sense to me that he’d want them out of the building. Even if they were going to settle down and rationally decide on a course of action, they couldn’t do it in Stark Tower because by that point Spider-Man knew for a fact that Iron Man was spying on him through his costume and probably had a good idea that they were under surveillance through things like the bird statue in their bedroom. Also, right before this, Iron Man said he was going to keep an eye on May and MJ while Peter did something for the Initiative (or something like that – it’s been a while since I actually read this), and if that wasn’t a veiled threat then the art was trying really hard to convince us otherwise. So Spider-Man rightly thought that it was only a mater of minutes or hours before his family became the hostages of a man who would do anything to hold his agenda together. For all we know, the Parkers were going to meet somewhere where they could discuss their treason safely, but Iron Man escalated the situation by crashing through the wall.

What's also interesting is that Tony is clearly eavesdropping on the conversation, because after Peter tells May and MJ what a terrible mistake he's made - Iron Man comes crashing through the walls and tackles him! He doesn't wait for Spidey to actually leave the premises, which, for example is Shoplifting Crimebusting 101 when you think someone is stealing - you wait for them to actually leave the store with their loot. How does Tony know, for example, that May or MJ won't talk him down? He doesn't even give either one of them the opportunity! Peter has committed no crime yet.


Ever hear of a pre-emptive strike? The super heroes were at war, and in war the rules change. What Spider-Man was talking about was an act of treason. Leave the premises? Think of the intelligence Spider-Man could have given the enemy! And carrying the Iron Spider technology on his back? No, Iron Man COULD NOT have risked Spider-Man slipping away. That could have cost him everything.

You’re not a card-carrying left-winger unless your heart bleeds for those scumbags getting three squares and a cot in Cuba (or you're getting your picture taken with Hugo Chavez). That’s because there's this perception on the left that everyone who believes in law and order is a goose-stepping fascist who's willing to sell his freedom for the promise of "security" which is the farthest thing from the truth.


Is this intentional irony? You accused people on one side of the political fence of attributing an oversimplified straw man argument to their opponents immediately after you attached an oversimplified straw man of your own to them. What if I were to say that there’s a perception on the right that everyone who believes in due process has a bleeding heart for terrorists whose pillows aren’t soft enough, which is the farthest thing from the truth?

However, inexplicably, and like a damn fool, simply because the writers deemed it so, Spidey refuses to take it. For all of the talk about power and responsibility, he has behaved like a spoiled little child who takes his toys and goes home when he finds out that the world isn't perfect. This is bad, bad writing and shows a complete lack of respect for the character.


If you just look at Amazing, he seems to take a somewhat logical path. He returns to the motel the night of the final Civil War battle, probably with the intention of discussing with his family whether they should accept the amnesty or continue to fight. Aunt May gets shot immediately, and at that point patching things up with the law has to be the last thing on his mind. For one, if he re-enlisted in Tony Stark’s army then he wouldn’t have the freedom to bust into prison and bitch slap the Kingpin, or even to investigate the shooting at all with the necessary directness and brutality. Also, Peter needed to stay incognito to keep the wrong kind of attention away from May. I don’t really agree with the reasoning behind that later point, but it seemed to be Peter’s thinking, anyway.

Of course, none of that justifies him enlisting with the New Avengers, who are basically a group of militant radicals. It was never explained how or why he had the time or the desire to do such a thing with his Aunt on her deathbed. I think the New Avengers Spider-Man is a Skrull. That would also explain why Spidey and Doc Strange acted like they hadn’t met in a while in OMD part 2.
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Postby George Berryman » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:12 am

spideyshohaib wrote:LOve it Love it

I have always been a fan of your work JR since he first movie came out i have been reading your stuff as a 15year old crazed spiderman fan !


Damnit Fettinger--! You've got groupies already?!?

That tears it! Where's my wig...
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Postby SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:47 am

SheriffOfCoffeeTown wrote:A question, though: In your overall opinion, how is Ellis' run on the Thunderbolts? As someone who's interested mostly in Mac and Norm, would it be worth my while to pick up?


I liked the first story arc and while Norman and Gargan obviously have to share the stage with other players, they each have some good moments. However, the series is now bi-monthly with a one-shot every other month as a result of Ellis falling behind and I can't really recommend the one-shots.


Sounds good enough to me. The "Faith in Monsters" hardback is half off at my LCS tonight. ^__^

CrazyChris wrote:
NEXT TIME: Well, I've alluded to it more than once - maybe I should take a quickie break from 2006 and jump start into the "Worst Story of 2007." Any candidates?


Only of 2007? I was thinking more like EVER. Our hero was reduced to a sniviling child and erased from reality. How could it be worse?


Well, the forces of evil could have ultimately emerged triumphant.

Oh, wait...
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Postby MadGoblin » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:36 pm

Yikes! Did I offend you or something? :wink:


CrazyChris wrote:It makes sense to me that he’d want them out of the building. Even if they were going to settle down and rationally decide on a course of action, they couldn’t do it in Stark Tower because by that point Spider-Man knew for a fact that Iron Man was spying on him through his costume and probably had a good idea that they were under surveillance through things like the bird statue in their bedroom. Also, right before this, Iron Man said he was going to keep an eye on May and MJ while Peter did something for the Initiative (or something like that – it’s been a while since I actually read this), and if that wasn’t a veiled threat then the art was trying really hard to convince us otherwise. So Spider-Man rightly thought that it was only a mater of minutes or hours before his family became the hostages of a man who would do anything to hold his agenda together. For all we know, the Parkers were going to meet somewhere where they could discuss their treason safely, but Iron Man escalated the situation by crashing through the wall.


Which goes back to my comment that JMS was deliberately stacking the deck if that's what Tony was doing - since he was being Fascist Tony all during the issue. The way Tony had been acting the entire issue was GUARANTEED to turn Peter against him, and he would have been a fool if he had not realized that since he supposedly knew Peter's character so well. This is not a logical character development, this is fitting a square peg in a round hole to get the story moving in the direction YOU want it to go, not where the characters would logically take it.

Does this mean that Reed Richards was talking treason in Civil War #6 (I think that's the issue) when he expressed openly to Jennifer Walters his distress at using the Thunderbolts? If Tony was THAT paranoid, then wouldn't Reed have also become compromised when his own wife and brother in law went on the lam? Wouldn't he have worried that Reed would have compromised his agenda or made a separate deal with the government in order to spare his wife and brother in law the consequences of their actions? Where was Tony in Reed's face when his wife actually aided and abetted the escape of rebel forces after the death of Bill Foster? Wouldn't Sue have been put under arrest immediately? Wouldn't anyone reasonably assume that the defection of Sue Richards was a greater threat than that of Peter Parker? You could argue that there is no way that Tony would arrest Sue because he DIDN'T want to turn Reed against him - so then why threaten Peter Parker's family? This is not rationale writing.

But back to the point of rushing them out of the building - my wife gets pissed at me if I come home a half hour late without telling her. If I were trying to push her out of her home and force her to break the law - she wouldn't have budged one inch until I came clean with her. Besides, if Peter was worried about survelliance, then he could have subtly written a note explaining the situation and handed it to them and conducted a conversation that way. Not perfect, but inifinitely less suspicious than running around going "we gotta leave! we gotta leave!" Nothing suspicious there.

Ever hear of a pre-emptive strike? The super heroes were at war, and in war the rules change. What Spider-Man was talking about was an act of treason. Leave the premises? Think of the intelligence Spider-Man could have given the enemy! And carrying the Iron Spider technology on his back? No, Iron Man COULD NOT have risked Spider-Man slipping away. That could have cost him everything.


The superheroes may have been at "war" against each other metaphorically speaking - but the US Government was not at war with anyone, nor was it dealing with an insurrection to overthrow it, which is where the definition of treason begins to come in. The writ of habeas corpus had not been formally suspended that I remember in the story - although I admit I have not read the zillion other Civil War miniseries. Tony's jabber about the laws not applying in the Negative Zone is preposterous because the crimes that these people allegedly committed were IN the United States. Just moving them out of the legal jurisdication of the US does not change that. And the deal with Gitmo that puts it in such murky legal waters is that the people interred there are NON US citizens. The unregistered combatants were all US citizens (again, as far as I know).

And besides in Civil War #5, Tony tells Peter the Gulag was only temporary (which JMS ignored in his own interpretation). Spider-Man was not talking about taking arms against his country. Not only that, but considering how much Tony had been withholding from him - he wouldn't have had that much intelligence to give them. For all of the talk about making Peter his "second," he shared very little with him. Basically, it was the troika of Tony, Reed, and Hank Pym - and as it turned out the compromising of Hank Pym by the Hulking was FAR more disastrous that anything Peter could have done or info he could have provided.

Is this intentional irony? You accused people on one side of the political fence of attributing an oversimplified straw man argument to their opponents immediately after you attached an oversimplified straw man of your own to them. What if I were to say that there’s a perception on the right that everyone who believes in due process has a bleeding heart for terrorists whose pillows aren’t soft enough, which is the farthest thing from the truth?


Actually, it was intentional irony - maybe I need to revisit the wording to make that more clear. The point I'm making is that for whatever reason, JMS wanted to REALLY make a point about Gitmo - so badly that he ignored everything else and all of the other legitimate, and even stronger reasons that Peter Parker had to turn on Tony Stark. He didn't have Peter turning on Tony because he felt personally betrayed (i.e. the use of Norman Osborn and Venom - which if I were writing, I would have had Peter discover that), but because Tony was betraying an "ideal."

And not so much now as when this issue originally came out, Gitmo was a cause celebe among the left. Or at least that's how I remember it. The fact that it was such a singular focus of JMS just seemed to me that he was going along with the crowd getting his digs in.

If you just look at Amazing, he seems to take a somewhat logical path. He returns to the motel the night of the final Civil War battle, probably with the intention of discussing with his family whether they should accept the amnesty or continue to fight.


That's quite an assumption, considering that the moment he arrives, his spider sense goes off. I think the only thing he says is "Fine, I.." before he gets the buzzing in his head.

Aunt May gets shot immediately, and at that point patching things up with the law has to be the last thing on his mind. For one, if he re-enlisted in Tony Stark’s army then he wouldn’t have the freedom to bust into prison and bitch slap the Kingpin, or even to investigate the shooting at all with the necessary directness and brutality.


Actually - that's the first thing on your mind. If Peter truly cares about May, he will try to get her the best medical help available at soon as possible - which means swallowing his pride, taking May to the hospital, and then going back to Stark hat in hand saying "I f****d up bad - gimme amnesty, a new costume, and the best health care for Aunt May." But no, he's more interested in being "right." He's acting like a dumbass. In fact, he seems to be saying that his "perspective" is more important than Aunt May's life! It's like this "Watch my mother die - or do what I was doing anyway before I fell off my rocker." No choice.

As far as not being able to go after the Kingpin - the Civil War was over, the battle had been fought and the cleanup was beginning. You don't think that the other heroes would want to send a message to the criminal element that you don't go around shooting old ladies? In fact, the shooting of Aunt May would be something that not even Stark would want anyone to get away with because that would send a very poor message to the other registering heroes that "see - you unmask and your loved ones get hurt." Maybe she got shot while she was "aiding and abetting" a fugitive - but it would still be in the other heroes minds that their loved ones would be vulnerable. They would want to put this guy down - HARD. In fact, that's why mobsters wouldn't take out cops or their families, because then all sorts of punks would be shot dead resisting arrest.


I should re-iterate - my problem with the story has nothing to do with that JMS obviously has a different political perspective than I do. My problem is that he has characters acting out of character, even in contradiction to how they are portrayed on other Civil War minis, in order to push a political viewpoint on the Gitmo issue. I am not a writer, but I could have written the story and had Peter make the same decisions and reached the same outcome, but they would have been far more in character. As portrayed here, Peter Parker's decisions are simply not rational - they are stupid - and it makes it very hard to sympathize with him.

Now, if someone would come out and admit "you know, we really did not handle this very well. We really could have done a much better job at telling this story and making it work," then I might relax the vitriol - because all my bitching aside, I'll bet just plain sloppiness is more of a culprit than I'm giving it credit for.
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Postby SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:51 pm

Something that occurs to me: is there even another corporation in the Marvel U. besides Stark Industries that qualifies to build an interdimensional prison?
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Postby spideyshohaib » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:55 pm

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Postby George Berryman » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:08 pm

SheriffOfCoffeeTown wrote:Something that occurs to me: is there even another corporation in the Marvel U. besides Stark Industries that qualifies to build an interdimensional prison?


A.I.M. could do it.

Then again they're not exactly a government contractor and they'd turn all the prisoners into zombie-slaves after uploading all of their knowledge into MODOK... but yeah A.I.M. could do it.
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Postby SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:10 pm

George Berryman wrote:
SheriffOfCoffeeTown wrote:Something that occurs to me: is there even another corporation in the Marvel U. besides Stark Industries that qualifies to build an interdimensional prison?


A.I.M. could do it.

Then again they're not exactly a government contractor and they'd turn all the prisoners into zombie-slaves after uploading all of their knowledge into MODOK... but yeah A.I.M. could do it.


Yeah, the only other corporations I was thinking of whom could do it were Hammer Industries and AIM and other guys who were, well, evil. The ham-fisted Haliburton comparison didn't really hold water, in my opinion.

But isn't that the essence of most of Civil War: forcing a political message through, regardless of how much sense it actually makes.
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Postby George Berryman » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:03 pm

SheriffOfCoffeeTown wrote:But isn't that the essence of most of Civil War: forcing a political message through, regardless of how much sense it actually makes.


While having everyone act out of character? Yeah pretty much. Civil War in a nutshell.
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