The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Discuss your thoughts on the articles written by J.R. Fettinger from the www.spideykicksbutt.com website.

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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Joseph Adorno » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:04 pm

The end of me following Spider-Man comics regularly happened with J. Michael Straczinski's run on the book. AND his ego.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:27 pm

Joseph Adorno wrote:The end of me following Spider-Man comics regularly happened with J. Michael Straczinski's run on the book. AND his ego.


:shock:

Details please. Details!
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Antiyonder » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:35 pm

Big Al wrote:even the clone saga had good ideas poorly executed (bring back the clone-ok. Make him the real spiderman. facepalm)


To a degree I still feel that way, but sometimes I wonder if him being the clone would have been received better had they not made him unlikable during the first half of the saga.

Then again, while I'm not sure it was his intent, DeFalco alternate telling of the Clone Saga could work both ways in that regard. Which for reference/reminders sake is Peter and Ben not bothering to test themselves as they're set in respective lives and because The Jackal isn't that trustworthy.

Arguably that approach leaves room to interpret who's the original or the clone.

Hell I'd say the 90s was the last time Peter Parker was every truly developing as a character.


Agreed. Plus until Peter David's FNSM, it seemed like the supporting cast as a whole (the ones still alive anyway) were non-existing with MJ and May being the only cast members, aside from occasional appearances like Flash or Liz.

But with the Post Clone Saga/Pre-Reboot, you had growth, interesting stories & mysterious and regular use of the supporting cast.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:42 am

Antiyonder wrote:
Big Al wrote:even the clone saga had good ideas poorly executed (bring back the clone-ok. Make him the real spiderman. facepalm)


To a degree I still feel that way, but sometimes I wonder if him being the clone would have been received better had they not made him unlikable during the first half of the saga.

Then again, while I'm not sure it was his intent, DeFalco alternate telling of the Clone Saga could work both ways in that regard. Which for reference/reminders sake is Peter and Ben not bothering to test themselves as they're set in respective lives and because The Jackal isn't that trustworthy.

Arguably that approach leaves room to interpret who's the original or the clone.

Hell I'd say the 90s was the last time Peter Parker was every truly developing as a character.


Agreed. Plus until Peter David's FNSM, it seemed like the supporting cast as a whole (the ones still alive anyway) were non-existing with MJ and May being the only cast members, aside from occasional appearances like Flash or Liz.

But with the Post Clone Saga/Pre-Reboot, you had growth, interesting stories & mysterious and regular use of the supporting cast.


I don’t think they made Ben unlikable during the first half of the Saga. Honestly maybe if Peter had been portrayed more positively people would’ve been comparatively less mad....but they still would’ve been mad. A lot of people hate the idea of what they did and were/are unaware of how they were deconstructing Peter to facilitate it.

TBH, I don’t even see the problem of having Ben and Peter there but definitively stating Ben IS the clone and Peter IS the original.

I didn’t mind cutting down the supporting cast under JMS given how those 3 characters got excellent development and characterisation. Plus I feel it was a kind of reboot after the reboot, a laser point refocusing upon Peter himself and what he’s truly made of. Whilst his other cast members are important at his heart May and MJ are the most important people in his life so why not make that a close circle and just really concentrate on them for awhile and build them up as opposed to having other characters share the spotlight. TBH for me it kind of reinvigorated Spider-Man after the Mackie/Byrne reboot.

I think there wasn’t anything wrong with the pre-reboot’s take on the supporting cast though and am not saying they HAD to do what JMS did because they weren’t dealing with the aftermath of the reboot. Hell given what was happening in the clone saga it was actually relatively refreshing to SEE all those supporting cast members as there were pretty sporadic during the clone saga. So both eras were right for their time. I do think though the Post-Clone Saga era delivered what was necessary for the time.

Supporting cast, Peter superficially ‘young’ in college, but married, super villains, no issues over him being a clone, new supporting cast members, old supporting cast members, lovely jubbly, it worked.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby MC3 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:23 am

First time the golden age ended for me (and yes, I count just about all of the 90s as one) was the Chapter One relaunch and Mackie writing an uncharacteristic and dysfunctional Peter and MJ, making the book depressing. However, Spider-Girl was fresh in it's infancy at the time and was a lively optimistic book, so I reposistioned myself there. Once JMS's run and Ultimate Spidey launched, followed by so many other books (including spin-offs for younger readers in Marvel Adventures and female readers with the MJ series) I was knee deep in a second golden age which was slowly and systermatically dismantled over the period of 2007-2011 in the wake of OMD. MJ's book was cancelled, Ultimate Peter was (at the time) dead as a doornail, and the Mephistoverse compeltly deconstructed once familiar and endearing characters, turning them into one-dimensional over-entitled moany brats who lack maturity.

I would'nt call the current era a "golden age" overall (though many who enjoy ASM and Slott's run may disagree and proclaim this to be a hot period for the character) but there's still plenty to enjoy...just about. The new Spider-Man Unlimited runner gamme looks like a lot of fun (and has a more engaging Spider-Verse storyline attached to it), Miles Morales is just about keeping the stagnant Ultimate Universe above water, and the marraige is still present in the newspaper comics. There's enough to keep me a loyal fan, and sometimes that's all you need to ask for..to be persuaded to stay
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:00 am

MC3 wrote:First time the golden age ended for me (and yes, I count just about all of the 90s as one) was the Chapter One relaunch and Mackie writing an uncharacteristic and dysfunctional Peter and MJ, making the book depressing. However, Spider-Girl was fresh in it's infancy at the time and was a lively optimistic book, so I reposistioned myself there. Once JMS's run and Ultimate Spidey launched, followed by so many other books (including spin-offs for younger readers in Marvel Adventures and female readers with the MJ series) I was knee deep in a second golden age which was slowly and systermatically dismantled over the period of 2007-2011 in the wake of OMD. MJ's book was cancelled, Ultimate Peter was (at the time) dead as a doornail, and the Mephistoverse compeltly deconstructed once familiar and endearing characters, turning them into one-dimensional over-entitled moany brats who lack maturity.

I would'nt call the current era a "golden age" overall (though many who enjoy ASM and Slott's run may disagree and proclaim this to be a hot period for the character) but there's still plenty to enjoy...just about. The new Spider-Man Unlimited runner gamme looks like a lot of fun (and has a more engaging Spider-Verse storyline attached to it), Miles Morales is just about keeping the stagnant Ultimate Universe above water, and the marraige is still present in the newspaper comics. There's enough to keep me a loyal fan, and sometimes that's all you need to ask for..to be persuaded to stay


In fairness to Mackie:

a) Byrne was his co-writer so the blame up until Byrne’s last arc should be shared
b) Mackie was severely burnt out on spider-Man by that point having worked on the character constantly since 1994
c) Mackie had health problems at the time
d) Mackie/Byrne were ordered to end the marriage and thus were deliberately trying to make people hate it. If you look at most of Mackie’s work with MJ and the marriage BEFORE the Reboot he was actually pretty good at it.

The many people proclaiming this to be a new golden age might need to look again because I honestly do not see how an era where Peter Parker wasn’t Spider-Man and is clearly not the point of the series at the moment can ever be called a golden age for Spider-Man. At best it was a golden age for Doc Ock, where HIS 50th anniversary lasted all year round and was given great gusto, whilst Peter got 3 stories and a few covers and that was it. Spider-Men was pretty solid but was an Ultimate Spider-Man arc at the end of the day, where Peter wasn’t the entire point. ASM #700 was insulting and mean spirited and Alpha was a piece of crap.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby MC3 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:53 am

Big Al wrote:The many people proclaiming this to be a new golden age might need to look again because I honestly do not see how an era where Peter Parker wasn’t Spider-Man and is clearly not the point of the series at the moment can ever be called a golden age for Spider-Man. At best it was a golden age for Doc Ock, where HIS 50th anniversary lasted all year round and was given great gusto, whilst Peter got 3 stories and a few covers and that was it. Spider-Men was pretty solid but was an Ultimate Spider-Man arc at the end of the day, where Peter wasn’t the entire point. ASM #700 was insulting and mean spirited and Alpha was a piece of crap.


I agree, I don't care much for the Mephistoverse and it's "In Name Only" devil-deal-dominated versions of the characters, or how blatantly unfocused and uncaring it all is for Peter and his cast, I'm just friends with some people that do enjoy the current run, so I try to be fair to their tastes.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Cheesedique » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:40 pm

I started reading in the mid-80's which I'll always hold up as a fantastic time for Spider-man (and comics) in general.

Going into 1986-1987, there were still many, many good stories, such as the end of PAD's run, the proposal and wedding, Kraven's Last Hunt and the return of the black costume and the introduction of Venom.

I actually consider ASM #300 to be Spider-man's peak in comics. Following that, the MIchelinie / McFarlane run was very strong (my favorite run on Spider-man). When McFarlane left and Larsen took over, it was still a good era with memorable stories and great villains appearing. Around the time Bagley came aboard, the art was still pretty much top-notch but MIchelinie's scripts seemed to get a little more generic and uninteresting.

ASM #365 was a great anniversary issue (which sported a hologram cover and a decent Lizard story). But it marked the return of Peter's "parents" and that was the start of the end in quality really. The stories became these endless convoluted mindfucks, or simply terrible multi-part cashgrab crossover stories such as Maximum Carnage.

I still look back at aspects of this era fondly, such as JM DeMatteis' Spectacular SM work, with the Harry Osborn Green Goblin. When JMD took over Amazing as well, it injected some life into the title, and ASM #400 was tremendous. It was all just massively downhill from there though, and reading back I don't think Spidey was particularly interesting or relevant in the comics world again until JMS came around in 2001.

The start of the 90's Clone Saga truly demarcated the end of the golden age for me, but the seeds for that were planted several years earlier as Marvel flailed around trying to compete with Image comics. So 1992 and ASM #365 for me.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:05 pm

Cheesedique wrote:I started reading in the mid-80's which I'll always hold up as a fantastic time for Spider-man (and comics) in general.

Going into 1986-1987, there were still many, many good stories, such as the end of PAD's run, the proposal and wedding, Kraven's Last Hunt and the return of the black costume and the introduction of Venom.

I actually consider ASM #300 to be Spider-man's peak in comics. Following that, the MIchelinie / McFarlane run was very strong (my favorite run on Spider-man). When McFarlane left and Larsen took over, it was still a good era with memorable stories and great villains appearing. Around the time Bagley came aboard, the art was still pretty much top-notch but MIchelinie's scripts seemed to get a little more generic and uninteresting.

ASM #365 was a great anniversary issue (which sported a hologram cover and a decent Lizard story). But it marked the return of Peter's "parents" and that was the start of the end in quality really. The stories became these endless convoluted mindfucks, or simply terrible multi-part cashgrab crossover stories such as Maximum Carnage.

I still look back at aspects of this era fondly, such as JM DeMatteis' Spectacular SM work, with the Harry Osborn Green Goblin. When JMD took over Amazing as well, it injected some life into the title, and ASM #400 was tremendous. It was all just massively downhill from there though, and reading back I don't think Spidey was particularly interesting or relevant in the comics world again until JMS came around in 2001.

The start of the 90's Clone Saga truly demarcated the end of the golden age for me, but the seeds for that were planted several years earlier as Marvel flailed around trying to compete with Image comics. So 1992 and ASM #365 for me.


In fairness parts of the clone saga and the era thereafter were actually rather good.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby MC3 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:40 pm

Cheesedique wrote:ASM #365 was a great anniversary issue (which sported a hologram cover and a decent Lizard story)


Ah yes, about the only time Billy Conners was depicted as much older than he usually is.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:08 pm

MC3 wrote:
Cheesedique wrote:ASM #365 was a great anniversary issue (which sported a hologram cover and a decent Lizard story)


Ah yes, about the only time Billy Conners was depicted as much older than he usually is.


ASM #365 makes me sad. Not because it was godawful but because it celebrated the 30th anniversary of Spider-Man with, let's face it, a story which up until that cliffhanger was just kinda standard...and yet was STILL better than Alpha which was handed to us as the 50th anniversary celebration
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby MC3 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:33 am

Big Al wrote:
MC3 wrote:
Cheesedique wrote:ASM #365 was a great anniversary issue (which sported a hologram cover and a decent Lizard story)


Ah yes, about the only time Billy Conners was depicted as much older than he usually is.


ASM #365 makes me sad. Not because it was godawful but because it celebrated the 30th anniversary of Spider-Man with, let's face it, a story which up until that cliffhanger was just kinda standard...and yet was STILL better than Alpha which was handed to us as the 50th anniversary celebration


I agree, it played on some pretty tough topics (Billy being willing to knife his father to end the usual madness) that I know I appreciated as a kid, I knew someone who had then undiagnosed aspergers and had a shaky relationship with his dad and I showed him the comic and things between them got a bit better going forward (they're really tight now as of this writing, took them a while though), The Alpha story was atrocious and lacked nuance and substance on every level.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:04 am

MC3 wrote:I agree, it played on some pretty tough topics (Billy being willing to knife his father to end the usual madness) that I know I appreciated as a kid, I knew someone who had then undiagnosed aspergers and had a shaky relationship with his dad and I showed him the comic and things between them got a bit better going forward (they're really tight now as of this writing, took them a while though), The Alpha story was atrocious and lacked nuance and substance on every level.


It wasn't even that it was bad it was that THAT was the thing that celebrated this once in a lifetime event which was Spider-Man's 50th anniversary. None of us will ever see that again and it was at best a non-event and at worst a mess. James Bond got Skyfall for his 50th. Dr. Who got the Day of the Doctor. Spider-Man got Alpha but it's okay because a few months later they murdered him so that Doctor Octopus could basically celebrate his own 50th anniversary throughout 2013 by dancxing on Peter Parker's grave. Yeah I said it, Doc Ock's 50th anniversary was a bigger deal than Spider-Man's own.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Cheesedique » Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:57 pm

Big Al wrote:In fairness parts of the clone saga and the era thereafter were actually rather good.


I've read up on this era over the years after first missing out on it, and there wasn't much that was that good. Even events like Identity Crisis seemed just a bit forced. The best stuff was with JMD writing Norman, but he was mostly out of the Green Goblin costume for the majority of it. I still haven't read a majority of the Mackie / JR Jr issues. By the time Mackie took over writing both titles along with Byrne, it was a crapfest. So outside of a few stray issues by Jenkins, I don't see a lot that was that essential reading until JMS came aboard.

Big Al wrote:
MC3 wrote:I agree, it played on some pretty tough topics (Billy being willing to knife his father to end the usual madness) that I know I appreciated as a kid, I knew someone who had then undiagnosed aspergers and had a shaky relationship with his dad and I showed him the comic and things between them got a bit better going forward (they're really tight now as of this writing, took them a while though), The Alpha story was atrocious and lacked nuance and substance on every level.


It wasn't even that it was bad it was that THAT was the thing that celebrated this once in a lifetime event which was Spider-Man's 50th anniversary. None of us will ever see that again and it was at best a non-event and at worst a mess. James Bond got Skyfall for his 50th. Dr. Who got the Day of the Doctor. Spider-Man got Alpha but it's okay because a few months later they murdered him so that Doctor Octopus could basically celebrate his own 50th anniversary throughout 2013 by dancxing on Peter Parker's grave. Yeah I said it, Doc Ock's 50th anniversary was a bigger deal than Spider-Man's own.


Yeah, it was a totally worthless 50th anniversary. There was NOTHING reverential about this character reaching fifty years in publishing. Alpha was crap, Superior was crap. ASM #700 was the worst anniversary issue I've ever read, with some repulsive Ramos art and a quite nasty story by Slott. They really screwed that up.
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Re: The Golden Age of spiderman, where did it end for you?

Postby Big Al » Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:55 pm

Cheesedique wrote:
Big Al wrote:In fairness parts of the clone saga and the era thereafter were actually rather good.


I've read up on this era over the years after first missing out on it, and there wasn't much that was that good. Even events like Identity Crisis seemed just a bit forced. The best stuff was with JMD writing Norman, but he was mostly out of the Green Goblin costume for the majority of it. I still haven't read a majority of the Mackie / JR Jr issues. By the time Mackie took over writing both titles along with Byrne, it was a crapfest. So outside of a few stray issues by Jenkins, I don't see a lot that was that essential reading until JMS came aboard.

Big Al wrote:
MC3 wrote:I agree, it played on some pretty tough topics (Billy being willing to knife his father to end the usual madness) that I know I appreciated as a kid, I knew someone who had then undiagnosed aspergers and had a shaky relationship with his dad and I showed him the comic and things between them got a bit better going forward (they're really tight now as of this writing, took them a while though), The Alpha story was atrocious and lacked nuance and substance on every level.


It wasn't even that it was bad it was that THAT was the thing that celebrated this once in a lifetime event which was Spider-Man's 50th anniversary. None of us will ever see that again and it was at best a non-event and at worst a mess. James Bond got Skyfall for his 50th. Dr. Who got the Day of the Doctor. Spider-Man got Alpha but it's okay because a few months later they murdered him so that Doctor Octopus could basically celebrate his own 50th anniversary throughout 2013 by dancxing on Peter Parker's grave. Yeah I said it, Doc Ock's 50th anniversary was a bigger deal than Spider-Man's own.


Yeah, it was a totally worthless 50th anniversary. There was NOTHING reverential about this character reaching fifty years in publishing. Alpha was crap, Superior was crap. ASM #700 was the worst anniversary issue I've ever read, with some repulsive Ramos art and a quite nasty story by Slott. They really screwed that up.


Dude, trust me there are many diamonds in the rough.

JMD’s Spec run

Goblins at the Gate

Much of Mackie’s PPSM run with JRJR

Elector’s origin

Black Tarantula

Lost Years Redemption

Web of Death

Revelations

Web of Carnage

ASM #400

An aweful lost of Ben Reilly as Spider-Man generally

Hobgoblin Lives

Oh Hell yeah there was shite like Maximum Clonage. But that was only half the story.

Dude, I’m sorry Identity Crisis was in no way forced at all. Norman wanted to make Peter’s life difficult as he is want to do, thus he frames him so that he can’t even go out as Spider-Man. making a new identity is actually so smart that you wonder why Peter didn’t do it before. and using four to maximise his activities and confuse the enemy was ingenius. And the really cool thing is that each identity reflected a different facet of Spider-Man’s character. Richochet was the joking bouncing Spider-Man. Dusk the mysterious criminal underworld stalker. Hornet the science nerd. And Prodigy was the sheer unbridled heroism of the man.

Yeah Norman was out of the Green Goblin costume but...that seriously doesn’t make a difference at all. Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin are one and the same evil canker in Spider-Man’s life and he actually caused MORE trouble as Norman than he did as the Goblin. It was an ingenius use of a classic villain which extrapolated something old and built upon it. The tension was rife as Norman could mock Peter in plain sight and Peter couldn’t do anything to truly fight back as Norman infested his life. that’s part of what’s awesome about Norman. Like Peter he is two people and he and Peter can crossover into both sides of one another’s lives. Doc Ock is part of Spider-Man’s world but Norman Osborn/the Green Goblin is part of Peter’s AND Spider-Man’s. He knows his friends and family, he has relationships with them. They’re lives are intertwined as they carry out their struggle and have it affect the people around them. So basically Norman not being the Goblin is far from something to cite as a bad thing at all.

Dude, that era was essential for defining much of Norman’s character, giving Electro an origin and generally picking up the pieces from the Clone Saga. It’s a severally underrated era.


Mackie pre-reboot was a different animal to Mackie during the reboot

I agree about ASM #700. I mean it was better than Web #100 but that’s not saying anything.
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