My opinion on the Sins Past arc

Discuss your thoughts on the articles written by J.R. Fettinger from the www.spideykicksbutt.com website.

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SheriffOfCoffeeTown
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Post by SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:31 am

So, here's what I don't get: JMS intended for Gabe and Sarah to be Peter's children. That idea was nixed, thank God.

So....why continue to write the story, if the most emotional part of it has already been compromised?
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Post by Thanos6 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:48 am

I still don't see why them being Peter's children would have been so horrible...

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Post by FSUSpiderFan » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:42 am

I doubt they will retcon it but instead just ignore it like it never happened.

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Post by MadGoblin » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:33 pm

Thanos6 wrote:I still don't see why them being Peter's children would have been so horrible...
If they had remained small children that would have been one thing, because that would have definitely made Peter and Mary Jane's lives more complex from then on, since I can't see Peter doing anything but deciding to raise them. But for them to be adults, and Sarah looks just like Gwen? What would have been done with them afterwards? Sexual tension between him and his adult daughter? It just seems like a plot device that has nowhere to do after the initial "Oh my god!"

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Post by SheriffOfCoffeeTown » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:28 pm

Right on. Unless Peter wants to change his last name to "Summers", I just don't see the point in hyper-aging bastard mutant kids.
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Post by Thanos6 » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:07 pm

MadGoblin wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:I still don't see why them being Peter's children would have been so horrible...
If they had remained small children that would have been one thing, because that would have definitely made Peter and Mary Jane's lives more complex from then on, since I can't see Peter doing anything but deciding to raise them. But for them to be adults, and Sarah looks just like Gwen? What would have been done with them afterwards? Sexual tension between him and his adult daughter? It just seems like a plot device that has nowhere to do after the initial "Oh my god!"
A Franklin Richards-esque situation where they get reverted to their infant state and Peter and MJ can raise them with the chance to keep them from repeating their mistakes this time around? ;)

And don't get me started on the sexual tension thing. Sins Remembered can go to hell, of course (and take Brian Bendis with it, but that's a separate rant).

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Post by Godzilla2014 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:17 pm

Hello, I am a new user (who is also a shareholder at Marvel) and I personally thought that Sins Past basically was controversy for the sake of controversy. Why Gwen had sex with Norman is never sufficiently explained. When it happened is also never explained. If you are going to have Gwen sleep with the Green Goblin, then I need the details. Overall it was part of a trend in Marvel that was a major factor in my decision of dropping of the Spider-titles.
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"I've seen bulls*** that most people wouldn't believe. Aunt May having a family we had never seen before. I watched Peter become attracted to his cousins. All those retcons will be lost in Brand New Day To Pull The Same Old BullS***... like my tears for the Spider-Man I actually liked in raindrops that were later retconned into being piss...Time to read Brand New Ways To Die."

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Post by 666andahalf » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:35 am

MadGoblin wrote:
The Black Cat wrote: Even though they barely pulled off Sins Past with Norman as the father, can you imagine what contrived convolutions they would have needed to prove Peter was the father? That certainly would have not held up to snuff...it's a better story (and more plausible) that dirty ol' horny man Norman did it...
That reminds me...

What I find interesting in all of this debate is the perceptions that some people have had about the whole affair, that how could sweet innocent Gwen could have slept with evil old lecherous Norman. For example:

Norman did not know he was the Goblin at the time. He was still suffering the effects of the electrical shock he incurred in issue #40 and was acting nice at the time. He would have not have sexually assaulted or forced himself on Gwen. In fact, other than his beloved wife and the nurse who cared for him when he was recovering from his Gathering of Five induced insanity - Norman has shown no interest in even touching a woman. After all, if he wanted to rattle Peter by having sex with his woman, he could have easily raped Mary Jane at any time since his return from the dead.

In fact, he was afraid that he might dying at the time and was worried about how Harry would take care of himself.

Norman was probably around 45 at the time, which is not an inconceivable age for a 19 year old girl to sleep with, particularly a young woman who had probably known him for much of her life, was a friend of her own father's, and who in many ways was an "older"version of the young man she was actually in love with at the time.

Gwen as originally conceived by Stan and Steve Ditko was clearly very... aggressive. She briefly eyeballed Flash, and started salivating over Peter soon after she met him. It's not inconceivable that she could have already slept with a man (or more than one) before she even met Peter in college. And it was my experience in school that the overt teases (such as Mary Jane) gave "it" up less than the so-called "good girls."
J.R., as always you exceptionally explain that their characterizations fit the story. Therefore, the story passes the first question every writer should ask: "Can it be told?"

However, this does not excuse it for failing the second question: "Should it be told?"

If the editors had a problem with the story, it should have been axed from the beginning. Yet they let it go until it was too late to stop it and had to change the reveal. As dramatic as the story was, it isn't what we all wanted to read (or more accurately see). And therefore, we can rationalize all day about how and why the characters would do what they did, but it still doesn't make it an entertaining moment in Spider-Man lore.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Norman being a evil bastard, but this wasn't a way I wanted to see it.
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Post by Godzilla2014 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:40 am

MadGoblin wrote:
The Black Cat wrote: Even though they barely pulled off Sins Past with Norman as the father, can you imagine what contrived convolutions they would have needed to prove Peter was the father? That certainly would have not held up to snuff...it's a better story (and more plausible) that dirty ol' horny man Norman did it...
That reminds me...

What I find interesting in all of this debate is the perceptions that some people have had about the whole affair, that how could sweet innocent Gwen could have slept with evil old lecherous Norman. For example:

Norman did not know he was the Goblin at the time. He was still suffering the effects of the electrical shock he incurred in issue #40 and was acting nice at the time. He would have not have sexually assaulted or forced himself on Gwen. In fact, other than his beloved wife and the nurse who cared for him when he was recovering from his Gathering of Five induced insanity - Norman has shown no interest in even touching a woman. After all, if he wanted to rattle Peter by having sex with his woman, he could have easily raped Mary Jane at any time since his return from the dead.

In fact, he was afraid that he might dying at the time and was worried about how Harry would take care of himself.

Norman was probably around 45 at the time, which is not an inconceivable age for a 19 year old girl to sleep with, particularly a young woman who had probably known him for much of her life, was a friend of her own father's, and who in many ways was an "older"version of the young man she was actually in love with at the time.

Gwen as originally conceived by Stan and Steve Ditko was clearly very... aggressive. She briefly eyeballed Flash, and started salivating over Peter soon after she met him. It's not inconceivable that she could have already slept with a man (or more than one) before she even met Peter in college. And it was my experience in school that the overt teases (such as Mary Jane) gave "it" up less than the so-called "good girls."
I don't think he would rape anyone. It's not his style. It would be too easy for him. I get the feeling that Norman Osborn likes to make more difficult for himself than he has to, to amplify his sense of accomplishment in success. Think about it:
1. The costume. Why would anyone wanting to be feared wear a goblin costume that screams "GAY" like Norman's?
2. He had Baby May be born and kidnapped. Why not just kill her and save the trouble and money?
3. He kidnaps Gwen and knocks her out. Why not just kill her and leave her body there for Peter to see?
4. His quest to torment Peter. Why not just kill him when you have the chance?

Raping Peter's significant other hurts him yes, but that's too easy for Norman. Why simply rape your enemy's love when you can seduce her and demonstrate your skill at it? Essentially, doesn't it take more skill to convince her to say yes, even though she was fully capable of saying no? Granted, seducing Mary Jane is a practical near-impossiblity, so it wouldn't work, which is probably never explored this idea.
WARNING! 1ST AMENDMENT RIGHTS IN USE. DISCUSSION OF OPINIONS MAY CAUSE INTELLECTUALLY STIMULATING DEBATE.
The Obama administration considers me to be a potential terrorist. Why? Because I am a conservative Catholic. Spread the word.
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"I've seen bulls*** that most people wouldn't believe. Aunt May having a family we had never seen before. I watched Peter become attracted to his cousins. All those retcons will be lost in Brand New Day To Pull The Same Old BullS***... like my tears for the Spider-Man I actually liked in raindrops that were later retconned into being piss...Time to read Brand New Ways To Die."

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