Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

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Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby BD » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:03 am

What did you think of the show?

Here is the opening song.
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby Symbiobro » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:45 pm

I'll defend Brad's grading. It differs from which region you're in. For example, here in British Columbia Canada, this was my grading system:

A
86–100
B
73–85
C+
67–72
C
60–66
C-
50–59
F
0–49

So it's definitely my understanding that under 50% is a fail.

Anyway, now on to the actual comic discussion.
I totally agree with George that this is not Ben Reilly. It's a copy, just like all the other clones in this story. However, I can understand why Zach is so frustrated. Marvel is insisting that this is him, advertising it as the return of the character, despite that being incredibly false. They can say "because you demanded it, the original scarlet spider is back!" Even going so far as to put his name in the title, and for someone who likes the character so much like Zach, it's pretty insulting. I'm only gonna be getting the book because Kaine is gonna be there, and it's written by Peter David.
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby MRstarkiller360 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:49 pm

Symbiobro wrote:I'll defend Brad's grading. It differs from which region you're in. For example, here in British Columbia Canada, this was my grading system:

A
86–100
B
73–85
C+
67–72
C
60–66
C-
50–59
F
0–49

So it's definitely my understanding that under 50% is a fail.


Hahaha, I definently won't be defending his grading however I will defend him in regards to the cover because the cover for the book is a part of the book that should not only sell the book to you but also give you somewhat of a synopsis for what is in the book.
BTW what is the D grade, might ask ?

Anyway, now on to the actual comic discussion.
I totally agree with George that this is not Ben Reilly. It's a copy, just like all the other clones in this story. However, I can understand why Zach is so frustrated. Marvel is insisting that this is him, advertising it as the return of the character, despite that being incredibly false. They can say "because you demanded it, the original scarlet spider is back!" Even going so far as to put his name in the title, and for someone who likes the character so much like Zach, it's pretty insulting. I'm only gonna be getting the book because Kaine is gonna be there, and it's written by Peter David.


It really does feel like a huge slap in the face for the fans who always wanted Ben Relly to be brought back. And I think you can tell a good story by bringing back Ben Reilly as a villain however what Slott did was make a complete and utter betrayel of the character. This is Ben27 sure but the fact is that there is no redeeming qualities for the character when Slott was done with him.
It really does feel like Slott is saying that you can have Ben Reilly back but the only the way I want. In the most mean spirited way.
So the only reason, I will read Scarlet Spider, is for the prospect of seeing a better version of Peter Parker in action, ie Kaine Parker with possibly aracely making a return.

Now there is something that I will also agree with George : The fact that Peter Parker and MJ are A-Okay with letting their 8 Year Old daughter being a super hero. And when the argumant came, it felt like Conway honestly, brushed off to make it as something not important.
This is truly my biggest complaint about the book. The Spider-Family should not be okay for Peter Parker. And this is something that honestly makes me irritated towards Marvel because when they first announced the sequel to the book many of were excited for it but Marvel found a way to cease much of the hype for it.
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby Frontier » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:41 pm

Slott identifying with Doc Ock to some degree would explain a lot of things about his run.
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby Symbiobro » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:40 pm

MRstarkiller360 wrote:BTW what is the D grade, might ask ?

We don't have them believe it or not.
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby Big Al » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:53 am

Mike a counterpoint on Conway’s criticism of MJ during the marriage. MJ was not always waiting by a window. Whilst that did happen more than it should have that can be owed to the fact that there were way too many Spider-Man books out at the same time and MJ waiting by a window frankly had a lot to do with Peter usually just exiting scenes with her from them. After all the series was about him not MJ. Nevertheless MJ did have her own subplots to deal with fairly routinely, such as her cousin Kristy’s eating disorder which Conway himself wrote.


With the conclusion of Clone Conspiracy I can safely say Slott was unqualified to write it.


Every Clone Saga since the original, whether you think they were overall good, bad, or somewhere in between, are all fundamentally emotionaly and psychologically driven stories. First and foremost the business of those stories should not primarily be upon the FACT that there are clones of people but actually upon getting inside Peter’s head and examining how their existence affects how he thinks and feels.


Each Clone Saga has also attempted (to varying degrees of success) to deal with fairly weighty issues of of human nature. The 1970s Clone Saga was a metaphor for grief and how you move on from it or get consumed by it (Peter moved on thanks to Mary Jane, Miles Warren was consumed by it and became a criminal). The 1990s Clone Saga was about identity, it made Peter and Ben Reilly ask the question of ‘Who am I?’ and by extension made the readers ask that question of the character they’d been following for decades.


Clone Conspiracy though? Zombie Apocalypse. That is what it is about. It’s a science fiction story coasting off of the Big Concept alone
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby BD » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:27 am

Here's what I go by for grades.

93 -100 A (4.0)
90 - 92 A- (3.7)
87 - 89 B+ (3.3)
83 - 86 B (3.0)
80 - 82 B- (2.7)
77 - 79 C+ (2.3)
73 - 76 C (2.0)
70 - 72 C- (1.7)
67 - 69 D+ (1.3)
63 - 66 D (1.0)
60 - 62 D- (0.7)
59 and below F (0.0)
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby George Berryman » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:54 pm

BD wrote:Here's what I go by for grades.

93 -100 A (4.0)
90 - 92 A- (3.7)
87 - 89 B+ (3.3)
83 - 86 B (3.0)
80 - 82 B- (2.7)
77 - 79 C+ (2.3)
73 - 76 C (2.0)
70 - 72 C- (1.7)
67 - 69 D+ (1.3)
63 - 66 D (1.0)
60 - 62 D- (0.7)
59 and below F (0.0)


This is fine for school but when applied to a scale of 1 to 10 it's just not applicable. 1 to 100 is a percentage; 1 to 10 is not (though you can derive a percentage from it.). The real problem is that to take a grade percentage you have to take the following key:

A - Excellent
B - Above Average
C - Satisfactory
D - Below Average
F - Unsatisfactory

The grade scale has a higher rate for what is considered passing (or Average performance.) Without it, Average for grades would be a 50% which is unacceptable for education standards. With B being 'Above Average' and D being 'Below Average,' C as 'Satisfactory' is 'Average' - but not in a literal sense.

On a scale of 1 to 10 (which has no adjustment upwards to serve as an acceptable education benchmark), Dead Average/Median is 5. When you see people give something a 5 on a 1 to 10 scale they mean 'Average' in a very literal sense.

10-9: A
7-8: B
5-6: C
3-4: D
1-2: F

Additionally, context for what is being graded is important. Education has to have a higher standard than the 50% mark. When I was a quality manager who had to answer to my bosses and our client a 'failing grade' was anything below 98%.
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby stillanerd » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:50 pm

Big Al wrote:Mike a counterpoint on Conway’s criticism of MJ during the marriage. MJ was not always waiting by a window. Whilst that did happen more than it should have that can be owed to the fact that there were way too many Spider-Man books out at the same time and MJ waiting by a window frankly had a lot to do with Peter usually just exiting scenes with her from them. After all the series was about him not MJ. Nevertheless MJ did have her own subplots to deal with fairly routinely, such as her cousin Kristy’s eating disorder which Conway himself wrote.


Very good points, Big Al. And I agree the whole "MJ waiting by the window" is a bit of exaggeration used by critics of the Spider-Marriage to highlight the idea that MJ, as a happy go lucky party girl, was made far too passive and that this didn't fit her character. I'd also add that her being a superhero is taking things into the other extreme. Just her running her clothing boutique and writing a fashion blog gives her enough active agency. It was mentioned in a past podcast, the fact that Conway in Renew Your Vows also made MJ the owner of her own clothing store was a stroke of genius on his part. Because it's the ideal job for someone like MJ, if she was married to Peter, and it's a shame she never that kind of career during the marriage years.

With the conclusion of Clone Conspiracy I can safely say Slott was unqualified to write it.


Every Clone Saga since the original, whether you think they were overall good, bad, or somewhere in between, are all fundamentally emotionaly and psychologically driven stories. First and foremost the business of those stories should not primarily be upon the FACT that there are clones of people but actually upon getting inside Peter’s head and examining how their existence affects how he thinks and feels.


Each Clone Saga has also attempted (to varying degrees of success) to deal with fairly weighty issues of of human nature. The 1970s Clone Saga was a metaphor for grief and how you move on from it or get consumed by it (Peter moved on thanks to Mary Jane, Miles Warren was consumed by it and became a criminal). The 1990s Clone Saga was about identity, it made Peter and Ben Reilly ask the question of ‘Who am I?’ and by extension made the readers ask that question of the character they’d been following for decades.


Clone Conspiracy though? Zombie Apocalypse. That is what it is about. It’s a science fiction story coasting off of the Big Concept alone


And the thing is...it wasn't even a Zombie Apocalypse. Because none of the clones, when they started turning into Carrions, behaved like zombies. At least not in the manner Kaine saw in those parallel worlds. So it even failed as a "science fiction story coasting off the Big Concept."
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BD wrote:Here's what I go by for grades.

93 -100 A (4.0)
90 - 92 A- (3.7)
87 - 89 B+ (3.3)
83 - 86 B (3.0)
80 - 82 B- (2.7)
77 - 79 C+ (2.3)
73 - 76 C (2.0)
70 - 72 C- (1.7)
67 - 69 D+ (1.3)
63 - 66 D (1.0)
60 - 62 D- (0.7)
59 and below F (0.0)


This is fine for school but when applied to a scale of 1 to 10 it's just not applicable. 1 to 100 is a percentage; 1 to 10 is not. The real problem is that to take a grade percentage you have to take the following key:

A - Excellent
B - Above Average
C - Satisfactory
D - Below Average
F - Unsatisfactory

The grade scale has a higher rate for what is considered passing (or Average performance.) Without it, Average for grades would be a 50% which is unacceptable for education standards. With B being 'Above Average' and D being 'Below Average,' C as 'Satisfactory' is 'Average' - but not in a literal sense.

On a scale of 1 to 10 (which has no adjustment upwards to serve as an acceptable education benchmark), Dead Average/Median is 5. When you see people give something a 5 on a 1 to 10 scale they mean 'Average' in a very literal sense.

10-9: A
7-8: B
5-6: C
3-4: D
1-2: F


This is why I tend to favor a 1 to 5 scale because it makes it more user friendly.

5: A
4: B
3: C
2: D
1: F

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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby George Berryman » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:15 pm

stillanerd wrote:5: A
4: B
3: C
2: D
1: F

8)


Yeah if the other sites adopted your system this wouldn't be a problem but they're all doing ten point scale (which doesn't translate to the education percentage scale.)
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby WolfCypher » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:18 pm

Symbiobro wrote:Hahaha, I definently won't be defending his grading however I will defend him in regards to the cover because the cover for the book is a part of the book that should not only sell the book to you but also give you somewhat of a synopsis for what is in the book.


Except they very rarely sell you the story. That Miles Morales vs. Space-Crap Venom cover over on Spider-Man during Civil War 2? Neither character were even IN the book. The recent issue of Venom 5? Spider-Man fighting this lame Venom was on the cover. They never actually fight.

By this logic, say Brad reviews a issue of ASM that has 20 covers. Is Brad going to give each comic, which all contain the exact same contents, a different grade because each cover is different? If Brad goes to the comic store, and just happens to pick up the "wrong cover", will he let that lower his score, even though the "right cover/better covers" were out of stock but contain the same story?

Lets say Brad went to the CBS to get the latest issue of ASM and they only had one cover in stock, and he doesn't like the cover. He gets home and reads it, feels its meh, grades it in his mind as a C. Then Wendy arrives home with a surprise, she bought him a special edition Todd McFarlane variant of the same issue. He loves that cover. Same comic, still. He's already read it. He already felt it merited a meh C grade. Should that second identical issue suddenly bump a C story to a B? And to drive the point home, the variant he likes is Spider-Man swinging with Black Cat, which in this hypothetical, has nothing to do with the actual story.

Symbiobro, think of your favorite comic story. No imagine I replace the cover with crude stick figure drawings. Did that lower your opinion of the book?
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby Symbiobro » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:10 pm

WolfCypher wrote:
Symbiobro wrote:Hahaha, I definently won't be defending his grading however I will defend him in regards to the cover because the cover for the book is a part of the book that should not only sell the book to you but also give you somewhat of a synopsis for what is in the book.


Except they very rarely sell you the story. That Miles Morales vs. Space-Crap Venom cover over on Spider-Man during Civil War 2? Neither character were even IN the book. The recent issue of Venom 5? Spider-Man fighting this lame Venom was on the cover. They never actually fight.

By this logic, say Brad reviews a issue of ASM that has 20 covers. Is Brad going to give each comic, which all contain the exact same contents, a different grade because each cover is different? If Brad goes to the comic store, and just happens to pick up the "wrong cover", will he let that lower his score, even though the "right cover/better covers" were out of stock but contain the same story?

Lets say Brad went to the CBS to get the latest issue of ASM and they only had one cover in stock, and he doesn't like the cover. He gets home and reads it, feels its meh, grades it in his mind as a C. Then Wendy arrives home with a surprise, she bought him a special edition Todd McFarlane variant of the same issue. He loves that cover. Same comic, still. He's already read it. He already felt it merited a meh C grade. Should that second identical issue suddenly bump a C story to a B? And to drive the point home, the variant he likes is Spider-Man swinging with Black Cat, which in this hypothetical, has nothing to do with the actual story.

Symbiobro, think of your favorite comic story. No imagine I replace the cover with crude stick figure drawings. Did that lower your opinion of the book?

Hey now, don't look at me. You quoted the wrong person. That was MRstarkiller360 who said that, not me.

And regarding Brad's opinion on whether the cover is important, I don't agree that it should affect the grade of the book, but still feel it's an important aspect of the book itself. For example, I'm a huge Agent Venom fan, and I didn't buy the Morales Spider-Man comic with Spaceknight on the cover because I don't care about Miles all that much, but if I did, I would've been pissed that Venom wasn't in it.
And some covers are absolutely gorgeous, so they should absolutely be talked about, but like I said, I don't think it should affect the rating of a book. There's a reason for the saying "don't judge a book by its cover"
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Re: Podcast #459-Clone Con #5, ASM 24 and Renew #4 Thoughts?

Postby Spideydude » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:33 pm

Unfortunately there is presidence to the Zombies aspect. SPIDER-MAN:DEAD MANS HAND. By Roger Stern.
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