Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you think?

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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby kaine_reilly_parker » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:01 pm

Big Al wrote:Technically something VERY major happened in ASM #300. Venom debuted. His impact upon the franchise cannot be understated as he is without question the most recognizable and maybe popular (to the mass audience) Spider-Man villain ever.


Yes, I'd think so. The only others that might be in the same ballpark for the general population are Otto and Norman.
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby hornacek » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:37 pm

Big Al wrote:In fairness if a run is shorter it is easier to remember what happens in it as there isn't as much to recall. Every issue stands out more.


I'd say that if a run is ~100 issues then I would hope to remember at least a dozen memorable storylines - either single-issue or multi-part. I could use runs by Conway, JMS, JMD, etc to compare instead. As I said, there's nothing wrong with Micheline's run, it's just "there".

Big Al wrote:Technically something VERY major happened in ASM #300. Venom debuted. His impact upon the franchise cannot be understated as he is without question the most recognizable and maybe popular (to the mass audience) Spider-Man villain ever.


Venom's appearance in #300 wasn't as momentous as ASM #200, #400, Spec #200, even Spec #100. They created a brand new villain we'd never heard of before (technically we hadn't, even though we knew about the symbiote) and who only appeared in the final page of the previous issue (minor appearances in ASM #298 and Web notwithstanding). And his legacy was almost immediately tarnished with his subsequent appearances, "brains brains!", Lethal Protector, etc.

And "most popular" doesn't automatically mean "best". To build upon my popcorn movie analogy about Micheline's run, Independence Day was the biggest grossing film of 1996. It's a great popcorn film, but it was nowhere near the best film of that year.
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby WolfCypher » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:28 pm

So, I'm happy to finally have a FNF with Venom. I mean, if Marvel Comics won't give the fans what they demand, why can't the fans give the fans what they demand?

This may come off as a diss to Michelinie, but he and Slott really do have the exact same styles when it comes to dialogue and exposition. In my mind, I can let it slide with Michelinie since that was the style of writing during the 80s/late 80s/early 90s, but in the 2000s/2010s+, that style doesn't work so when another writer has that exact same style today, its hard to excuse. I do think in a hypothetical timeline, the Slott as we know him now would have been more generally more liked (instead of having this mixed split-down-the-middle reception with fans) had this exact same Slott was writing Spider-Man during the 80s/early 90s, especially since his kind of dialogue and story-telling would have been common back then, and there was no social networking back then.

I've said that McFarlane's Venom was the perfect Venom. His didn't have any of the shallow things that I wish would stay the f&^% away from the current Venom design, but I also have to give his Brock credit. He looks right. I have no idea why throughout the 90s Eddie started to look like a long-haired underwear model, they made him younger and gave him that long Fabio hair, when disgruntled, 40-year-old looking Eddie was right what he should have been.

Compare this to McFarlane's DEFINITIVE look and its night-and-day what I mean
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I don't like No Prizing Marvel's errors anymore, as current Marvel is going to keep ignoring their own facts, canon, established continuity history, they are going to continue to do whatever dumb stuff they feel is necessary. But this alludes to 80s Marvel, so I'll No Prize this. JR believes that Eddie exposing the so-called real Sin-Eater via ASM 300 is a retcon of how the alleged killer turns himself in in the original Death of Jean DeWolffe/Sin-Eater arc. This can work. I'm No Prizing it here: Eddie could have exposed Gregg Emil as the Sin-Eater and his source, and Gregg (who was already a guilt ridden schitzo; he really thought he was the real Sin-Eater and he was perceived as troubled over his supposed murders) decides to turn himself in. Brock writes the article outing Emil, and either a coincidence that Emil was happening to turn himself at that same time anyway, or maybe when he realized he had been outed, he decides to turn himself in anyway. They can both work.

I don't get why people keep harping on the character's origins. I get (really, I do) that people hate Venom's origins/Brock's motivations...but both Venom and Eddie have moved away from all of that...so why does that keep being brought up? These may be issues people had with the character(s) when said issues were relevant, but if both characters have moved far away from what you could say held them back, why do these issue keep being brought up if now they're non-factors? I mean, if someone today said they hated Deadpool because he's just another "antagonistic, overly-brooding bad-ass big guns Image Comics/Youngblood-style overly-serious character", considering that hasn't been his deal since his 1st series of appearances, and he's moved faaaaar away from what he used to be to what he is now, I'd have to ask the same thing; some of the problems Venom had in the 90s aren't even issues with him (or Brock) anymore, but they're still strikes against him now?

I would also really love someone to explain how a different character blaming Spider-Man for the deaths of her husband and unborn child is any better than someone blaming Spider-Man for his ruined career, marriage, and failing life. Especially since Spidey would have had less to do with the dead husband/baby angle (he was literally just swinging by) than he did what we got with Brock (he caught the serial kill Brock was profiling).
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Cheesedique » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:50 pm

hornacek wrote:
I'd say that if a run is ~100 issues then I would hope to remember at least a dozen memorable storylines - either single-issue or multi-part. I could use runs by Conway, JMS, JMD, etc to compare instead. As I said, there's nothing wrong with Micheline's run, it's just "there".


I re-read the run a couple years ago, and I can probably think of at least 10 memorable Michelinie single issue or multi-part stories:

1 - ASM #300 of course
2 - #308 - 310 / Mary Jane kidnapped, Styx & Stone, Spidey fights Taskmaster
3 - Return Of Venom, #317 - 318
4 - Cosmic Spidey kicks the shit out of Grey Hulk, #329
5 - Return Of Sinister Six; for ten year old me over one summer, this was a blast to read. ASM #334 -339. Otto was a coldhearted badass here, which is how he works best IMO.
6 - Powerless. Love this story. #341 -343
7 - #346 -347 - Venom vs Spidey on the deserted island. Would've been a good place to have left Brock.
8 - #361 -363 - Carnage's first, and best appearance.
9 - #365 Actually solid anniversary issue, Lizard
10 - #375 - Spidey fighting Venom again in the midst of the returned parents stuff boasts some phenomenal Bagley art, and introduced Ann Weying, Brock's ex-wife.

Sure there was lots of bad stuff in between a lot of these issues, even boring stuff, but it was very classically Amazing Spider-Man.

I can see how Slott can get to compared to him, but Michelinie is a much better writer overall than Slott.

hornacek wrote:Venom's appearance in #300 wasn't as momentous as ASM #200, #400, Spec #200, even Spec #100. They created a brand new villain we'd never heard of before (technically we hadn't, even though we knew about the symbiote) and who only appeared in the final page of the previous issue (minor appearances in ASM #298 and Web notwithstanding). And his legacy was almost immediately tarnished with his subsequent appearances, "brains brains!", Lethal Protector, etc.

And "most popular" doesn't automatically mean "best". To build upon my popcorn movie analogy about Micheline's run, Independence Day was the biggest grossing film of 1996. It's a great popcorn film, but it was nowhere near the best film of that year.


#300 was momentous in that, for better or worse, it signaled the start of a true new era for Spider-Man in a big way.

And it's not just that Venom is the last best villain because he's the most popular, but a lot of writers got a lot of mileage out him and the concept. He really is like the broken mirror image of Spidey, mixed with HR Giger. For some, that's an irresistible very-comic book concept.
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby WolfCypher » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:54 am

Cheesedique wrote:
hornacek wrote:7 - #346 -347 - Venom vs Spidey on the deserted island. Would've been a good place to have left Brock.


I disagree, only because I can't imagine either Eddie or the symbiote wanting to stay on an island for the rest of their lives. The symbiote has always been portrayed as a creature of adrenaline even when it was Peter's secretly alien costume, taking him out at night to fight crime and swing around the city without his knowledge (I do like that this wasn't forgotten and was brought up in Jenkin's "The Hunger" arc). The alien would not just want to be by it/themselves on that island everyday doing nothing. And I imagine Eddie, who so firmly believes himself to be a good guy, now that Spider-Man's dead, Eddie would resolve to prove how much of a better hero he is over that monster Spider-Man. Even before he became Venom, Brock thought of himself as righteous and as one of the good guys, with Spider-Man out of his life, why don't believe that he'd return to civilization and go around being a so-called hero? Pretty much, if Spidey's off the table (because he's either dead or because...I dunno, shot in the dark, but they made a TRUCE) Venom would make his new purpose as a violent vigilante.

My head canon way of ending Venom has always been simple (this is for 90s era Venom). The symbiote is definitively killed, and Eddie goes to jail. Or have the symbiote and Eddie die in a gruesome way together. Taking (ripping off) a cue from the manga the Guyver, something happens to the symbiote that causes its substance to melt away in a acidic mass and Eddie is "dissolved alive" underneath, leaving a definitive corpse surrounded by a dead symbiote. Or maybe I just really like that death scene in Guyver...

I understand that Michelinie needed a new excuse to take Venom out of the picture until he was needed for his next arc (up til that point, every Venom fight ended with Venom or just Eddie's imprisonment), but thinking Venom would never want to leave the island, ever, was too much of a stretch.

Michelinie said in interviews that since ASM 300 was Eddie's 1st appearance, ASM 400 would be where he'd kill Venom (or maybe just Eddie) off. I doubt he would have gotten that approved had he stayed on till 400, and this wouldn't have been the 1st time something he wanted to do didn't get to happen.

To answer JR's question, why did Michelinie choose Venom's debut for ASM 300? He didn't. He originally was going to debut Venom, eventually, in Web of Spider-Man, sice he was on that book, and he was teasing Venom in that title, but when he was promoted to ASM, only months before the milestone 300 was away, he didn't really have that much time or preparation to think up a milestone story, so he decided to use 300 to debut a new character that he wanted to drop on us when he was writing Web. That's really all it was. He got moved from Web to ASM right before 300, so he brought his "mystery character" with him from Web to ASM, and with 300 looming, that was his debut for the character.
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby hornacek » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:15 am

WolfCypher wrote:
Cheesedique wrote:
hornacek wrote:7 - #346 -347 - Venom vs Spidey on the deserted island. Would've been a good place to have left Brock.


Hey, I didn't write that! :P
The Crawl Space is well worth the cost of a single comic book a month.

"You just got Hornaceked!"
-Chris, episode #250

"I guarantee you Hornacek is gonna quote that ... you've been Hornaceked."
- Brad, episode #263

"Hornacek's pretty cool."
- George, episode #400
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby hornacek » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:22 am

Cheesedique wrote:
hornacek wrote:
I'd say that if a run is ~100 issues then I would hope to remember at least a dozen memorable storylines - either single-issue or multi-part. I could use runs by Conway, JMS, JMD, etc to compare instead. As I said, there's nothing wrong with Micheline's run, it's just "there".


I re-read the run a couple years ago, and I can probably think of at least 10 memorable Michelinie single issue or multi-part stories:

1 - ASM #300 of course
2 - #308 - 310 / Mary Jane kidnapped, Styx & Stone, Spidey fights Taskmaster
3 - Return Of Venom, #317 - 318
4 - Cosmic Spidey kicks the shit out of Grey Hulk, #329
5 - Return Of Sinister Six; for ten year old me over one summer, this was a blast to read. ASM #334 -339. Otto was a coldhearted badass here, which is how he works best IMO.
6 - Powerless. Love this story. #341 -343
7 - #346 -347 - Venom vs Spidey on the deserted island. Would've been a good place to have left Brock.
8 - #361 -363 - Carnage's first, and best appearance.
9 - #365 Actually solid anniversary issue, Lizard
10 - #375 - Spidey fighting Venom again in the midst of the returned parents stuff boasts some phenomenal Bagley art, and introduced Ann Weying, Brock's ex-wife.


Most of these stories I remember from reading your descriptions (but I can't remember a thing about the Lizard anniversary story). But again, if I haven't read the Micheline run in a long time and had to sit down and think of his stories, there are the big 3 (or 5) that I can think of, and then a lot of "Uh ... he wrote about 100 issues, there must have been *some* memorable stories ..." All the Venom stories just melded together after #300.

Powerless was just so dumb because ... wasn't this the one where Peter chose to give up his powers? And he was tricked into doing it by a scientist who turned out to be a villain? And the reasons he used to justify it were reasons he had used in the previous times he had given up Spider-Man, but I guess he forgot about how all those times he had realized "No, I made a mistake, I can't quit." That story really annoyed me for some reason.

I guess the Cosmic story would be one to add to my list, at least it was something that had never been done before and was memorable to see Spidey fly and being super-super-powered.

And to paraphrase Homer, "Everything's better if you remember it."
The Crawl Space is well worth the cost of a single comic book a month.

"You just got Hornaceked!"
-Chris, episode #250

"I guarantee you Hornacek is gonna quote that ... you've been Hornaceked."
- Brad, episode #263

"Hornacek's pretty cool."
- George, episode #400
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Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Cheesedique » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:05 am

hornacek wrote:Most of these stories I remember from reading your descriptions (but I can't remember a thing about the Lizard anniversary story). But again, if I haven't read the Micheline run in a long time and had to sit down and think of his stories, there are the big 3 (or 5) that I can think of, and then a lot of "Uh ... he wrote about 100 issues, there must have been *some* memorable stories ..." All the Venom stories just melded together after #300.

Powerless was just so dumb because ... wasn't this the one where Peter chose to give up his powers? And he was tricked into doing it by a scientist who turned out to be a villain? And the reasons he used to justify it were reasons he had used in the previous times he had given up Spider-Man, but I guess he forgot about how all those times he had realized "No, I made a mistake, I can't quit." That story really annoyed me for some reason.

I guess the Cosmic story would be one to add to my list, at least it was something that had never been done before and was memorable to see Spidey fly and being super-super-powered.

And to paraphrase Homer, "Everything's better if you remember it."


The "Powerless" arc was just a fun, tight story with some great Erik Larsen art. It was pretty simple and self-contained, and though the reason for Peter wanting to be rid of his powers is very dumb, it was a story that was over quick, where someone like Slott probably would've stretched it out for over a year or more. Plus it had great showings by Felicia helping out a non-powered Parker fight baddies like the Scorpion.

I was really surprised by how great #365 was, especially since, with the exception of JMD/Buscema's Spec #189, the stories in the other holographic cover 30th anniversary issues were dogshit.
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