Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you think?

Leave a Message to BD, general notes about the site, or ask a question on the podcast!

Moderators: PartyHardy, BD, stillanerd

Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you think?

Postby BD » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:48 pm

The opening song is here.



What did you think of the show?
BD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spider-Man Crawl Space Webmaster
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Image
Image
User avatar
BD
Webmaster
Webmaster
 
Posts: 5645
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:46 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby WolfCypher » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:01 pm

Venom featured in a Crawlspace FNF episode

Image

Will be digging into this as soon as possible. Does Brad fan-mush all over this one, while George rages? And JR for a bonus!
Image

George Berryman wrote:Marvel is the North Korea of comic books.
User avatar
WolfCypher
Webslinger
Webslinger
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:55 pm
Location: You LIED to me, Hoopie Goldberger.

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby kaine_reilly_parker » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:24 pm

I'm listening now. For the record, I was not trolling George with my suggestion for the Reilly/Venom fight.
User avatar
kaine_reilly_parker
Freelance Photographer
Freelance Photographer
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:55 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby BD » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:37 pm

WolfCypher wrote:Venom featured in a Crawlspace FNF episode

Image

Will be digging into this as soon as possible. Does Brad fan-mush all over this one, while George rages? And JR for a bonus!

I do a lot. This issue is in my Top 20 and I love the Mcfarlane art.
BD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Spider-Man Crawl Space Webmaster
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Image
Image
User avatar
BD
Webmaster
Webmaster
 
Posts: 5645
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:46 am
Location: Missouri

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby WolfCypher » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:26 am

You now why I prefer McFarlane's Venom? He drew Venom great. No stupid-ass tongue, no cascading slime drool.
Image

George Berryman wrote:Marvel is the North Korea of comic books.
User avatar
WolfCypher
Webslinger
Webslinger
 
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:55 pm
Location: You LIED to me, Hoopie Goldberger.

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby George Berryman » Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:41 pm

kaine_reilly_parker wrote:I'm listening now. For the record, I was not trolling George with my suggestion for the Reilly/Venom fight.


Anything with clones/symbiotes/Ultimates is, by default, trolling me. It was all in fun, I wasn't really irked or anything. Well aside from having to talk about anything clones/symbiotes/Ultimates 8)
--George Berryman (Delta House Member 'Bear' - Join Us Now!),
"Old School"


Image
User avatar
George Berryman
Administrator
Administrator
 
Posts: 8391
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:44 am
Location: The Delta House Tiki Bar!

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Cheesedique » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:45 pm

I was 8 years old when this issue came out. I vividly remember when McFarlane took over the art on ASM with #298. It was shockingly different from the Marvel house style we were used to.

#300 blew me away as a kid, I probably read it dozens of times. I still have my old copy but it is very worn (but still in one piece!). This still stands as the best appearance of Venom, and as a follow-up, #316-317 were great too.

I can also say without hesitation that #300 is my favorite comic book of all time.

Nice FNF! Can JR be on all of these from now on?
User avatar
Cheesedique
Black Suit Spidey
Black Suit Spidey
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:19 am
Location: North Hollywood, CA.

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Cheesedique » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:07 pm

Also, this being the start of Mary Jane drawn by McFarlane as a big-haired bimbo of sorts (which Larsen would subsequently keep going in his art), I really like the comment by George that he viewed Peter as an older brother, and to see MJ as an object of titillation would be like ogling his brother's wife. That is a great statement, big part of why I really enjoy this podcast.
User avatar
Cheesedique
Black Suit Spidey
Black Suit Spidey
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:19 am
Location: North Hollywood, CA.

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Symbiobro » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:21 pm

Hey! I'm Crawlspace famous now!

And it was actually the Chameleon/JJJ figure I used, but with Modern Electro's dumb head on. (I didn't really have any heads that look like Kevin Feige)

It makes me happy that I got to hear you guys talk about Venom in a positive light.
I even got to hear George say "I like [...] Venom". (First appearance Venom, but still)

And while I am a huge fan of Venom, and I do personally like his lethal protector phase, I can see why you guys prefer his first appearance. And I do like the teeth and tongue, but I don't like what they did with it later. I hate the green slobber and the huge alligator mouth. And the tongue is good as long as it's not too long. Once it starts being longer than his head is tall, it gets pretty ridiculous (though it works in some cases where the symbiote really freaks out). And I've never been a fan of Venom all of a sudden having to eat brains. I enjoy his McFarlane look and Bagley look equally though, and I'm glad I have multiple action figures of him so I can have both.

I do agree Eddie's motivations have always been pretty weak. Like JR said, he didn't do his homework and put the blame on someone else. But, as you mentioned, Brock is a crazy person who does shift the blame to others, so I'm not hugely bothered by it. It's why I loved the 90s cartoon version where Eddie was an established character from the beginning, and had set up to hate both Spider-Man and Peter Parker before he became Venom.
Image
User avatar
Symbiobro
Webslinger
Webslinger
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:45 am
Location: Canada's West Coast

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby kaine_reilly_parker » Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:05 pm

George Berryman wrote:
kaine_reilly_parker wrote:I'm listening now. For the record, I was not trolling George with my suggestion for the Reilly/Venom fight.


Anything with clones/symbiotes/Ultimates is, by default, trolling me. It was all in fun, I wasn't really irked or anything. Well aside from having to talk about anything clones/symbiotes/Ultimates 8)


I don't blame you for disliking any of those things. I'm not a big fan of symbiotes myself and I only like Ben and Kaine because I got introduced to Spider-Man with ASM #400 so all three of the Parker brothers are integral to my love of Spider-Man. Still, Ben vs Eddie is a really good fight.
User avatar
kaine_reilly_parker
Freelance Photographer
Freelance Photographer
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:55 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Cheesedique » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:08 pm

kaine_reilly_parker wrote:
George Berryman wrote:
kaine_reilly_parker wrote:I'm listening now. For the record, I was not trolling George with my suggestion for the Reilly/Venom fight.


Anything with clones/symbiotes/Ultimates is, by default, trolling me. It was all in fun, I wasn't really irked or anything. Well aside from having to talk about anything clones/symbiotes/Ultimates 8)


I don't blame you for disliking any of those things. I'm not a big fan of symbiotes myself and I only like Ben and Kaine because I got introduced to Spider-Man with ASM #400 so all three of the Parker brothers are integral to my love of Spider-Man. Still, Ben vs Eddie is a really good fight.


As with most things in Spider-Man, the idea of something like a symbiote was far better when there was just one. One damn living costume, which felt jilted by Peter and found someone like-minded to help in exacting revenge.

Like giving everyone and their damn brother spider-powers, the idea of a symbiote is a lot less special when they had a dozen of them running around at one point.

The idea that they had to create something like Carnage, because Venom suddenly wasn't "extreme" enough, and they wanted to spin Brock off as an anti-hero, was the true deathknell for the concept.
User avatar
Cheesedique
Black Suit Spidey
Black Suit Spidey
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:19 am
Location: North Hollywood, CA.

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Big Al » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:56 am

WolfCypher wrote:Venom featured in a Crawlspace FNF episode

Image

Will be digging into this as soon as possible. Does Brad fan-mush all over this one, while George rages? And JR for a bonus!






Love the episode and though it’s a long shot I really hope you guys cover more Venom stories, at the very least the very next one (which I think most people regard as the best outing for the character).



I think some of the mistakes Peter and Brock make in the fight could be excused, in Peter’s case on being shaken up nd not thinking clearly due to the shock of seeing Venom, seeing the suit is alive and the attacks he took from him. In brock’s case he took Spider-Man to the church because he wanted to savour his victory and make him suffer and killing him whilst he was knocked out wasn’t going to cut it. If he was going to do that then he could’ve just found out where peter lived and snuck into his house whilst he was asleep and broken his neck. Clearly though he wanted something more dramatic. And whilst it is classic Bond villain stupidity to leave the protagonist alive in the death trap and trust that they will die, in this case Brock couldn’t have stayed and watched because the bell tolls would’ve injured the symbiote. I imagine he went back up there again just to take a quick peek and ensure Spidey was a red smear.



Personally I think Venom under Michelinie AND McFarlane together was the best Venom, and that rendition was what Mackie brought back in this late 1990s/early 2000s run, maybe as the lone brightspot of that era. Visually I like this version of Venom but prefer Bagley’s (sans Ultimate). However those are 2 very different perspectives on the character. McFarlane essentially draws the black suit as ‘alive’ with a solid mass and a mouth to indicate it’s alive, whereas Bagley (after toning down the tongue and teeth) draws him as a nightmarish perversion of Spider-Man’s visage.



I don’t agree entirely about his origin being weak. Michelinie I do not think was outright re-writing the Sin Eater storyline so much as demonstrating Brock having a selective memory and twisiting the narrative to suit himself (like many unethical journalists. And like JR said…he’s a psychopath. He’s someone who blames others for his own faults and as a person of religion he was might’ve felt that in the Sin Eater’s case he’d rather scapegoat his failings upon Spider-Man rather than a fellow man of faith Stan Carter, who also had a respected record as a SHIELD operative and police officer under his belt and whom Brock likely knew had mental problems through no fault of his own.


In contrast Spider-Man was a morally questionable vigilante implicated in numerous incidents and crimes (including murders) and who was completely anonymous with a big blank mask disguising him. A perfect outlet for Brock to project his rage and frustrations on and blame for what went wrong in his life; the exact opposite of Peter who blames himself for everything that goes wrong in everybody else’s life. Furthermore Brock was clearly shown to be erratic, hypocritical and situational with his morality, choosing to do whatever suited him best at any given moment. This was highlighted in ASM #300 when he needlessly killed a police officer and then felt sad about it for a second and then never looked back on it. He could’ve prevented that guy from foiling his schemes without hurting him too much but he chose to violently kill him.


At the same time Brock not being a previously established character wasn’t inherently a problem. Both Electro and the Crime Master were people we’d never met before afterall.



Additionally, looking at Michelinie’s other work (including the stalkers he gave Mary Jane) as well as the 2 hints towards Venom he gave earlier in Web of Spider-Man his intention was for Venom to be the equivalent of a celebrity stalker who’s a complete stranger to their intended victim but whom the stalker (in their messed up head) has come to view said victim as having slighted them or someone they need to kidnap or kill. I mean even if you put aside the whole Sin Eater thing, Michelinie’s original origin would’ve retained the aspect of the character being a total stranger to Spider-Man.


I really do think THAT was really the point that the venom character hinged upon rather than being a dark reflection of Spider-Man or a mystery villain or someone with a direct connection to him. Afterall the genesis for Venom began as Michelinie simply wanting a villain who was invisible to peter’s Spider Sense, which in turn inherently invites the idea of that person sneaking up on (or stalking if you will) our hero. The black costume having that ability already is what led to Michelinie using it, rather than a desire to really have it be anything more than that


But between the impact the suit made in the fandom, the tease of Peter’s stalker from Web and ASM #298, the culmination in an anniversary issue and the fact that the decision was made that whoever wears the costume gets Peter’s powers Venom, no matter who he was going to wind up being, had the greater expectations fostered upon him by the readers than I think Michelinie originally intended.


Again he was just trying to make a creepy stalker for Spider-Man, highlighting the uniqueness of the Spider Sense, not invent the next Big Bad for Spider-Man and his evil opposite.


Furthermore Venom NOT being a pre-established character I think is actually a good thing. Not every villain who knows Peter’s secret needs to be someone significant in his life and Venom being a stranger (apart from being necessary for the stalker concept of the character) reaffirms Peter’s need for anonymity but in a different way than we’d seen before. Instead of being concerned about the enemies we know about attacking him if they knew the truth Venom showcases that Peter and his family would be at risk from enemies they didn’t even know about if his identity was public because there are just crazy people off the street whom he’s never met who want him dead.


In these ways I think Venom was more poorly explained rather than outright poorly conceived with a weak origin. If the issue had been tweaked to maybe more clearly shine a light on these aspects I don’t think we’d have the same problems with Venom as we do today.



Finally to touch upon some of the MJ comments made, I don’t entirely agree that wearing sexy outfits and being kidnapped was the only thing being done with MJ in this era…but I will agree it was far too common.


As for her becoming a SUPERmodel as opposed to a more down to Earth and aspiring model, whilst its not unrealistic that her career could rise fairly quickly Michelinie basically took her in this direction (along with Peter getting a book tour) because he wanted to build up the Parker’s wealth and affluence before bringing it all crashing down courtesy of Jonathan Caesar. That story happened about a year after ASM #300 and Michelinie has a long history of seeding plots in advance, e.g. Cletus Cassidy showed up a year or two before Carnage debuted. It wasn’t like he was intending MJ to permanently be that rich or famous or felt it was a natural direction to go in long term.
Delta House Member Gimli

https://40.media.tumblr.com/2e65cb18213b8d4bf704dca08169e49c/tumblr_nz9jrqvyRA1she6m6o1_400.jpg

"The itsy bitsy spider climbed up the water spout. Down came the Goblin and took the spider out. "

Joey Z was F.A.C.A.D.E.

THIS: http://hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger.tumblr.com/post/77268781356/the-debate-norman-osborn-vs-otto-octavius-who-is-the

My secret identity is: Ubertestosterone90sArnieAvenger....-Man
User avatar
Big Al
Captain Universe
Captain Universe
 
Posts: 4322
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:49 pm
Location: My Cat's name is Felicia

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby hornacek » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:21 am

Regarding Venom's tongue, Larsen said in an interview (on this very website, I believe) that he was the one that added the tongue and drool to Venom's appearance, but he thought that it was already part of the design and didn't mean to change his appearance, he was just trying to draw what McFarlane had already designed.

I've always thought of Micheline's run on ASM like watching a big-budget popcorn movie - you have a lot of fun watching it, but after it's over it's not something that sticks in your mind or you look back years later as something great. It wasn't bad, just ... perfectly serviceable.

Micheleine wrote ASM for almost 100 issues, and the only things from his run that I can really remember are (a) creation of Venom, (b) creation of Carnage, and (c) the robot parents. That's it (oh, and the Femme Fatales but that's because of J.R.'s Spider-History describing their ridiculousness) . In comparison, the Stern run was only about 25 issues and yet I remember many more stories from that run, and that's only 1/4 the size of Micheline's run.

While ASM #300 was a good fight, it's pretty unremarkable for an anniversary issue. It's not the culmination of a big story, a major event doesn't take place (well, he switches back to the red/blue suit), and there are no big revelations - as J.R. said he fights a guy we've never seen before.

Something I've always disliked from this issue is when Venom unmasks and Peter says "Eddie Brock?!?" which is so annoying because we have never seen this character before, but Peter acts like he knows who he is. When I read this when it was originally released, I legitimately thought that I had missed an issue. I wish Peter had said what Lex Luthor said in the Justice League Unlimited episode where he takes over the Flash's body and unmasks: "I have no idea who this is."
The Crawl Space is well worth the cost of a single comic book a month.

"You just got Hornaceked!"
-Chris, episode #250

"I guarantee you Hornacek is gonna quote that ... you've been Hornaceked."
- Brad, episode #263

"Hornacek's pretty cool."
- George, episode #400
User avatar
hornacek
Black Suit Spidey
Black Suit Spidey
 
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:25 am
Location: Bedford, N.S. Canada

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Big Al » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:53 am

hornacek wrote:Regarding Venom's tongue, Larsen said in an interview (on this very website, I believe) that he was the one that added the tongue and drool to Venom's appearance, but he thought that it was already part of the design and didn't mean to change his appearance, he was just trying to draw what McFarlane had already designed.

I've always thought of Micheline's run on ASM like watching a big-budget popcorn movie - you have a lot of fun watching it, but after it's over it's not something that sticks in your mind or you look back years later as something great. It wasn't bad, just ... perfectly serviceable.

Micheleine wrote ASM for almost 100 issues, and the only things from his run that I can really remember are (a) creation of Venom, (b) creation of Carnage, and (c) the robot parents. That's it (oh, and the Femme Fatales but that's because of J.R.'s Spider-History describing their ridiculousness) . In comparison, the Stern run was only about 25 issues and yet I remember many more stories from that run, and that's only 1/4 the size of Micheline's run.

While ASM #300 was a good fight, it's pretty unremarkable for an anniversary issue. It's not the culmination of a big story, a major event doesn't take place (well, he switches back to the red/blue suit), and there are no big revelations - as J.R. said he fights a guy we've never seen before.

Something I've always disliked from this issue is when Venom unmasks and Peter says "Eddie Brock?!?" which is so annoying because we have never seen this character before, but Peter acts like he knows who he is. When I read this when it was originally released, I legitimately thought that I had missed an issue. I wish Peter had said what Lex Luthor said in the Justice League Unlimited episode where he takes over the Flash's body and unmasks: "I have no idea who this is."


In fairness if a run is shorter it is easier to remember what happens in it as there isn't as much to recall. Every issue stands out more.

Technically something VERY major happened in ASM #300. Venom debuted. His impact upon the franchise cannot be understated as he is without question the most recognizable and maybe popular (to the mass audience) Spider-Man villain ever.
Delta House Member Gimli

https://40.media.tumblr.com/2e65cb18213b8d4bf704dca08169e49c/tumblr_nz9jrqvyRA1she6m6o1_400.jpg

"The itsy bitsy spider climbed up the water spout. Down came the Goblin and took the spider out. "

Joey Z was F.A.C.A.D.E.

THIS: http://hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger.tumblr.com/post/77268781356/the-debate-norman-osborn-vs-otto-octavius-who-is-the

My secret identity is: Ubertestosterone90sArnieAvenger....-Man
User avatar
Big Al
Captain Universe
Captain Universe
 
Posts: 4322
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:49 pm
Location: My Cat's name is Felicia

Re: Podcast # 453 Friday Night Venom Fight What did you thin

Postby Cheesedique » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Big Al wrote:Technically something VERY major happened in ASM #300. Venom debuted. His impact upon the franchise cannot be understated as he is without question the most recognizable and maybe popular (to the mass audience) Spider-Man villain ever.


He was certainly the best and biggest villain in Spider-Man comics to debut since the late 80's, until probably Carnage. None have had the same impact since.
User avatar
Cheesedique
Black Suit Spidey
Black Suit Spidey
 
Posts: 910
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:19 am
Location: North Hollywood, CA.