Now Up - Beginning the Series that YOU demanded!

Discuss your thoughts on the articles written by J.R. Fettinger from the www.spideykicksbutt.com website.

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Now Up - Beginning the Series that YOU demanded!

Postby MadGoblin » Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:43 pm

All I'm gonna say is:


Dark Side of the Spider Part 1



Excelsior! (wood shavings? :?)
Last edited by MadGoblin on Mon May 21, 2007 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Janoe-42 » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:26 pm

My first thought: Woot!

That was a pretty well-written, fair look at Venom. But then again, that's what we expect. Good job. Finish Part 2 soon! :P
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Postby BD » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:41 am

JR,
I've been one of the folks asking for a Venom article, so first off thanks for the great read.

I also think it was a fair look at Venom's beginnings. I still think Venom is a generational thing between you and me. Venom is one of my favorite villains and the Green Goblin is yours. My second favorite is Doc Ock, but even he's been in his share of stinkers. Remember the makeover over the last few years?
You grew up with the Spidey of the 70s and I grew up with Spidey in the 80s.
You were in college when Secret Wars hit the scene, I was in middle school. To me having my favorite character get a new suit and being able to buy a toy to boot was the bomb. I guess I was the age Marvel and Hasbro was aiming for at the time. It worked, because all those years later I'm still hooked.

I actually hadn't heard of the plans for Venom being a woman. That concept is really cool, and could actually be the basis of a future villain.

At the time I didn't see the story telling problems with the Sin Eater/ Venom intro. I just saw him as a cool visual character, drawn amazingly by Todd McFarlane.

I agree 100% that the costume is really the appeal of the character. Comics are a visual medium, and man that suit is just soooooooooooo cool. And a lot of story telling problems can be swept under the rug with the cool-factor.

The Ultimate Origin and Cartoon origin are a better beginning for the character. And it seems the movie writers know this fact and are going in that direction. Making Venom the other side of the coin of Spider-Man is the way I like to view the character. Making him the total opposite...a better flirt with girls, a better photog, stronger than Spider-Man....all those aspects should be played up.

It'll be interesting to talk to DeFalco and Frenz about the origins of the black costume.

I also agree that Venom was used and exposed way too much in the 90s. Most of those mini-series were just awful! But they sold, because of that costume. Can't blame Marvel on cashing in on a good thing. The character is still around and we're talking about him some 20 years later.


Thoughts?
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Postby Venom65437 » Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:15 am

EEEEKKKKK!!!

VENOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness I basically agree with what you said. Sure maybe Eddie Brock's motivations are weak, but I think the symbiote feeling like the scorned lover is as good a motivation as any. Honestly, when it comes down to it, I'm not too overly concerned about it, both Eddie and Venom have their reasons for hating Spidey, even if they aren't the best.

I also agree the costume is a big part of his appeal, I personally LURVE IT! And I do think it is genuinely creepy.

Good job pointing out Venom's sense of humor, and his smile, and his just general enjoyment being Venom and kicking the crap out of Spidey. Say what you will about him, when Venom and Spidey hook up it's always a hell of a smackdown. And I really like that Venom doesn't trigger Pete's Spider-Sense. It DOES give him a big advantage, as evidenced by most of their encounters being pretty one sided for Venom.

I, of course, loved this article, can't wait for part two!
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Postby e-three » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:37 am

I'm not a huge Venom fan, but I always liked the fact that Eddie Brock had a silly motivation for hating Spider-Man...it's an aspect of the character that actually gives him a little depth, but I think no one ever really touched on it too much. I think that Eddie's misery being caused by his own actions is a key to his character. Unlike Peter, Eddie Brock takes no responsibility for his actions. He can't admit that he screwed up or that he makes mistakes. It was entirely his fault that his career was ruined--like JR said, Brock didn't do his homework and made an incredibly huge blunder. But Brock can't come to terms with the fact that he ruined his own life; he refuses to admit fault. So what does he do? He blames Spider-Man. That way Eddie can still see himself as the innocent victim. The animated series may have ditched the Sin-Eater angle, but he's still a character that screws up his life and blames Spider-Man instead of himself. His unethical methods get him fired twice--but that's not what Brock believes...it's all Spider-Man's fault.

This trait gets carried over and increased as he becomes Venom. When the security guard or whoever it was confronts Brock at the church in Amazing #300, Eddie kills him--and again as JR points out, he didn't have to kill him. It's another case of Brock not taking responsibility for his actions. Maybe it was an accident, or maybe he actually enjoys killing. But to admit that would mean he's no longer the innocent victim that he believes himself to be. So what does he do? Again he blames Spider-Man. He needs to avoid capture so he can get his revenge on Spider-Man, so any one who dies in the process is Spider-Man's fault, because if Spider-Man didn't ruin his life in the first place he wouldn't have had to kill people.

Say what you will about Howard Mackie, but I think he put it best when he said that Venom is great power with NO responsibility. The "goombahs" (Electro, Chameleon, et. al) may blame Spidey for their problems, but they know they're up to no good, and just want Spidey out of the way so they can commit their crimes. Doc Ock and the Goblin are also aware of the mayhem and destruction they cause (and most of the time they revel in it!). But in Brock's eyes, every villianous act he commits as Venom isn't his fault, and every bad thing that happens in his life is because of someone else. Mac Gargan is pretty much the same way (after all, it's not his fault he's a murderous supervillian with Scorpion powers...it's all Spider-Man and Jonah's fault!) which is why I think he also makes a good Venom.
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Postby BD » Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:42 am

I can't stand Gargan as Venom. I mean Eddie Brock is Venom, case closed. Put him back in the Scorpion outfit.
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Postby MadGoblin » Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:32 am

Thanks for the compliments - and you all make excellent points. You know, as I wrote this article and started mapping out this series - I came to realize some of my own blind spots and biases, and I think Brad's onto something about the generational thing.


Sob - I'm just so old! :(


But, rather than elaborate a whole lot here - I think I'll work it into the start of Part 2!
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Postby Spider-Caster » Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:55 am

Excellent! Can't wait to read it.
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Postby sshspooky » Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:52 am

fantastic article. i've really been looking forward to these especially on the run up to Spiderman 3. can't wait for the next part!
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Postby BD » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:09 pm

A point I forgot to mention about the generational thing.....
Kids that were pre-teens had no clue about the behind the scene's going on with Hasbro and Marvel. We didn't know they were only out to sell toys and comics. I mean that's the business they're in now, but we didn't know nor care that the motive was so strong back in 1984.

Ignorance is bliss, and I have rose colored eyes when I look back at the book. I remember the hours of play I had with my Secret Wars figueres...and waiting in anticipation each month for the next issue to come out. I was in the 4th and 5th grade when the book came out, and life was good!
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Postby Venom65437 » Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:35 pm

BD wrote:I can't stand Gargan as Venom. I mean Eddie Brock is Venom, case closed. Put him back in the Scorpion outfit.


Amen! I think both Venom and Scorpion are good villians, and we need them both back again.
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Postby Arachknight1979 » Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:57 pm

As always, exellent article. Venom (or rather his treatment in the comics) was always, in my opinion, one of the worst handled good villans in Spidey history. At least the HobGoblin had a chance before beeing turned to crap. Venom was a good/ no GREAT concept that was fresh and new, but unfortunatlely never got the chance to be anything but a marketing tool. Keep up the great work. Oh, and extra points for mentioning "sonic toads" :-)


BD wrote:JR,
I still think Venom is a generational thing between you and me.
You were in college when Secret Wars hit the scene, I was in middle school.




I can honestly counter the "generational" point BD. I was in Junior High during the early 90's, and the more new comics I bought off the shelf, the more I would raid my older brother's comic collection, preferring the comics of days gone bye, than the over marketed cross over "wank fests" beeing toted to me month after month. Maybe Im a unique case but it was the comics that came out in the two decades BEFORE my time that made me a fan. Not the (at that time) current ones.
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Postby Thanos6 » Sun Feb 11, 2007 6:23 am

Great article, JR. Good job being "fair and balanced" ;) to a villain who admittedly isn't one of your favorites. Can't wait for the next part.

Oh, and I bring a message--

Brock? You did BROCK before me?! I warn you, Fettinger, you'll pay! You'll never hear the tentacle with your name on it!

Yours in good health,
-OO
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Postby Itsjustme » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:05 pm

Excellent work. I liked it a lot. However your tendancy to switch between critizing Venom and then defending him leady one with more than one personality. But it was fantastic. I'm really going enjoy these articles.
It's always Norman Osborn. Even if that's impossible. Even if he's dead at the time. If Spider-man gets a hangnail, its Norman Osborn.
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Postby Spidey418 » Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:41 pm

So basically:
70s Spidey Fan: I love Green Goblin!
80s Spidey Fan: I love Venom!
90s Spidey Fan: I love Ben Reilly!


Great article as usual. I think Venom is fine with Mac Gargan. As we see, in comics canon Eddie's motivations are suspect. I have to agree with e-three's line of reasoning on why Venom is such a cool villan, but I also think that Venom65437's dimensionalization of the symbiote as scorned lover also has much weight. Basically, Eddie and Mac are BOTH guys with the great power, everyone else's fault type thing, but to me, the REAL villan is the symbiote, not those guys.


A girl Venom? Boy, we sure did luck out that they kept that cat in the bag, or else we wouldn't have been able to witness the comic nirvana that was Venom: Lethal Proetctor, eh? That's the one with all the other symbiotes, right?
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