Green Goblin and the Thunderbolds - What do you think?

Discuss your thoughts on the articles written by J.R. Fettinger from the www.spideykicksbutt.com website.

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Green Goblin and the Thunderbolds - What do you think?

Post by gregxb » Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:00 pm

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=86724

I think it's a neat idea. Osborn leading a team is something new. Kinda Dirty Dozen-ish.

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Re: Green Goblin and the Thunderbolds - What do you think?

Post by MadGoblin » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:32 pm

gregxb wrote:http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=86724

I think it's a neat idea. Osborn leading a team is something new. Kinda Dirty Dozen-ish.
I like it as well. And I'll be having more to say about that before too long.

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Post by Thanos6 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:43 am

I could accept it if it wasn't a public "hero" team.

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Post by Venom65437 » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:33 pm

I'm going to get it while Venom is in it.... after that, I don't know.
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Post by MsMarvel1 » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:38 pm

I'm not totally sold on it, but at this point anything is better than Fabian Niceza's "Character Development is Killing People Off and Bringing Them Back/Changing Their Costumes and Races/Doing Incredibly Weird Shit!" style of writing.

(I'd say that he was the worst thing that happened to that book, but alas, there was that Fight Club era.)

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Post by BD » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:45 pm

Ms Marvel,
Great to see you back, I thought we lost you. I just checked on your profile and you've been gone since June. Welcome back!!!
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Post by Thanos6 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:36 am

Naw, Nicieza is superb. Aside from "Fight Club," I've got every issue of T-BOLTS.

(Did you read the Avengers/Thunderbolts "Best Intentions" limited series Fabian and Kurt did together? Brilliance)

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Post by MsMarvel1 » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:10 am

Thanks, Brad!
Naw, Nicieza is superb. Aside from "Fight Club," I've got every issue of T-BOLTS.
To each their own. I have most of the original run (I got the first two issues in that quick-trade paperback and there are holes in my collection after Bagley left the book, but I do have issue #75). There were some good parts. I particuarly liked issue #50, but some of his stuff with Gravitron (is that his name?) and Karla and the whole Jolt storyline just really annoyed me. Particuarly the Jolt part. She was the conscience of the team for a long time -- I think she deserved better than to be sent off to Superhero Purgatory ... er, Counter-Earth.

Reading the Civil War Thunderbolts issues just reminded me how much I didn't miss the series.
(Did you read the Avengers/Thunderbolts "Best Intentions" limited series Fabian and Kurt did together? Brilliance)
I have wanted to read that one, actually. It's probably on my Wish List.

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Post by Thanos6 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:16 am

To revive this thread from the dead--

I wouldn't mind Osborn leading a team. I just don't think it should be Thunderbolts.

The whole "gimmick" of Thunderbolts is about villains being redeemed. As one of them put it, it wasn't just about saving the world, it was about saving themselves, too.

For your "bank robber" type villains like Speed Demon or Blizzard, that works. If the path to hell is paved with good intentions, then maybe bad intentions can eventually lead to heaven.

That even works for Abner Jenkins. He killed a man when he was the Beetle. After becoming M.A.C.H.-1 and wanting to truly be a hero, Hawkeye told him that he'd have to give himself up for the murder; or the entire team would suffer. So Jenkins turned himself in, did time, and was eventually offered a pardon by the government--which he turned down, because as a good guy now, he felt he hadn't repaid his debt to society yet. Only after the events of the Avengers/Thunderbolts miniseries when he proved his worth again did he finally accept parole.

But it wouldn't work for Norman Osborn. He doesn't want to change, to reform, and not all the good deeds in the world will ever show him the light. Can you see him turning down a pardon?

The closest parallel would be Baron Zemo. Son of the Zemo who "killed" Bucky, he's tried countless times to conquer the world and kill Captain America. He even organized the most famous versions of the Masters of Evil (and JR, I dunno if you've read the "Under Siege" story where he leads them to attack Avengers Mansion, but you should. I know you don't like the Avengers for the most part. But you should read that story, it's incredibly good. It's by Stern. ;)). I'm sure he's left some bodies in his path.

And while the other original Thunderbolts mostly reformed around issue 12 or so, it took Zemo until 75. And THAT took numerous crises, including dying twice. And even after his reformation, he STILL wants to conquer the world, although now to save it from the "bleating masses." The only reason he's not in jail for murder and terrorism is through a legal loophole related to one of his resurrections. But he IS a hero now, as evidenced by the time he jumped in front of a fallen Cap and took a blast meant for him, badly scarring his face to almost Doom-like proportions.

So what's the difference between Zemo and Osborn (or Bullseye, or Gargan)? Zemo always viewed his actions as a means to an end, so he was able to shift the end from "kill Cap and rule Earth" to "help people," and then adjust his means likewise as he saw the light. But Osborn, I think, sees the means AS the end; he delights in screwing up lives and causing misery just for the hell of it. He's not just in the darkness; he savors it.

That's why I don't think he should be on the T-bolts. At least not for long before the team fractures between old and new members.

Well, those are my thoughts. JR, anyone?

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Post by MadGoblin » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:02 am

I'm not a Thunderbolts expert, but it seems like the purpose of this team is much different than the prior ones. This team is not about personal redemption (with the exception of Penance & Songbird perhaps), it's about staying out of the Negative Zone gulag, serving a year, and getting a passport out of the country with a few million bucks. They're little better than mercenaries on the government payroll - which would seem to be just the type of team for Osborn to lead - if he can keep his wits about him, that is. For Osborn, hunting down rogue superheroes is just fine with him - because if you remember how he got in the supervillain business in the first place according to Millar, it was as part of a cabal to keep super powered people from taking over political and business institutions by keeping them busy with supervillains. The SHRA, by essentially segregating super powered folks into two camps - those in "the army" (SHIELD, 50 state initiative, whatever) and under the control of the government- and those on the run - has accomplished that objective nicely as well.

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Post by Thanos6 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:46 am

That's kinda my point, JR. I feel that Quesada/Millar/Bendis (or "the Unholy Trinity") are subverting the whole POINT of Thunderbolts by making it a team of mercs. They feel that the T-bolts label can be applied to ANY team of villains who seem to have gone legit.

Guess what? After issue 75, they tried it then, too; turned it into Fight Club with different supervillains. It bombed. HORRIBLY. Cancelled in six issues, and the real T-bolts back in a miniseries, then had their old series resurrected. Not because the idea *itself* was bad, but because they had the utter gall to market it as *Thunderbolts*.

Same with Osborn leading this team. That idea itself is fine; just don't call it T-bolts. It's not.

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Post by Spider-Caster » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:57 pm

All I know is that Norman is seriously messed up and I'm loving every minute of it.
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Post by Antiyonder » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:53 pm

Something I've wanted to ask about, this thread seems as good a place to do so. Had the Sandman not been revert back to his villainous side, would he have fit in with the Thunderbolts?
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Post by Sheephead » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:56 pm

MadGoblin wrote:I'm not a Thunderbolts expert, but it seems like the purpose of this team is much different than the prior ones. This team is not about personal redemption (with the exception of Penance & Songbird perhaps), it's about staying out of the Negative Zone gulag, serving a year, and getting a passport out of the country with a few million bucks. They're little better than mercenaries on the government payroll - which would seem to be just the type of team for Osborn to lead - if he can keep his wits about him, that is. For Osborn, hunting down rogue superheroes is just fine with him - because if you remember how he got in the supervillain business in the first place according to Millar, it was as part of a cabal to keep super powered people from taking over political and business institutions by keeping them busy with supervillains. The SHRA, by essentially segregating super powered folks into two camps - those in "the army" (SHIELD, 50 state initiative, whatever) and under the control of the government- and those on the run - has accomplished that objective nicely as well.
And it could also be argued that they're keeping the supervillains busy by chasing the superheroes that are on the run!

One thought I just had: are there many supervillains in the MU that have managed to keep their identities secret from the authorities, and if so, are they also technically on the run? Unfortunately, I have so far been unable to read any Civil War or any of it's tie-in(waiting for trades, it's far cheaper) so am not sure if this has been covered or not.

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Post by Venom65437 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:29 pm

Well of course all super villains are on the run. That said, anyone with powers who has not stepped forward and registered is a fugitive right now.
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